Do Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean staves lack utility?

[Dallas]

Yeah, I ruined by pointing out your flaws in your argument? Yeah...

LOL, you didn't even read enough to know that GG is the guy who asked for clarification on the Ukon statement.

[TybudX]

Anybody know Garuda's base damage or attack, roughly?

[Korpg]

You still stated that the staff alone does what, 7.5% DoT damage less than Ukon? Not including the avatar's damage in that equation?

And yet, you continue to spout that even with Masamune also.....what was it, 4% DoT damage less also?

[Korpg]

Anybody know Garuda's base damage or attack, roughly?

Between 525 and 575, but that is an eyeball estimate.

[Greatguardian]

He meant weapon D, and yeah that's the problem I'm having right now. I have SMN's personal damage down, I think. Pclaws is easy enough to just average. 4k Pclaws every 45s sound accurate? It's just a matter of tacking on Garuda's physical hits.

[Korpg]

He meant weapon D, and yeah that's the problem I'm having right now. I have SMN's personal damage down, I think. Pclaws is easy enough to just average. 4k Pclaws every 45s sound accurate? It's just a matter of tacking on Garuda's physical hits.

Without +2 Emp bonus, yeah, 4k is about average.

[Dallas]

Anybody know Garuda's base damage or attack, roughly?

Kegsay did a lot of work.

Celestial Avatars have 504 attack at Level 75. Carbuncle has more. Fenrir even more.

Kegsay's work here:

http://kegsay.livejournal.com/5510.html

[Alhanelem]

If carbuncle has higher attack, its base damage must be lower, right? because Carbuncle very clearly hits for less than other avatars.

Without +2 Emp bonus, yeah, 4k is about average.

Sounds fair to me, it can spike much higher, and can go much lower if she whiffs.

[Byrth]

There's no point in running a comparison. Normally for threads like this, I'd try to favor my opposition's point as much as possible when running a comparison, so they'd be inclined to agree with the results (or at least not have any complaints against them). I can't do that in this situation though, because Summoner has literally no advantages to build on and I don't believe seeing math would change anyone's mind.
This damage comparison is about the best I can do. They just don't have a leg to stand on. If people can't see that, how are they going to read math I do and become convinced?

Here is some more pseudo-math, starting with assumptions:
GA WS Damage = Predator Claw Damage (very favorable to SMN)
GA DPS = Staff DPS (incredibly favorable to SMN, even if SMN has AM3 and WAR has AM1. Double Attack is better than Double Damage because you do twice as much damage and get twice as much TP.)
SMN WS damage = 0
Avatar BP Rate = 1 Blood Pact every 45 Seconds
Avatar DPS << Staff DPS (with Haste buffs as GG proposes, remember that Staff DPS = GA DPS)

Now we can ask, when does:
GA WS Damage * GA WS Rate + GA DPS = Staff WS Damage * Staff WS Rate + BP Damage * BP Rate + Staff DPS + Avatar DPS

GA WS Damage * GA WS Rate + GA DPS = 0 * Staff WS Rate + BP Damage * BP Rate + Staff DPS + Avatar DPS
GA WS Damage * GA WS Rate = BP Damage * BP Rate + Staff DPS - GA DPS + Avatar DPS
GA WS Rate = (BP Damage * BP Rate + Avatar DPS) / GA WS Damage
GA WS Rate = BP Rate + Avatar DPS / GA WS Damage
GA WS Rate = 1/45 + Avatar DPS / GA WS Damage


So, following the assumptions I made above (all pretty incredibly favorable to Summoner), the GA user would need to WS slightly more often than once every 45 seconds (enough to compensate for the Avatar DPS) in order to maintain higher overall melee damage. Hedging for those assumptions, the Ukon WAR could probably WS once every 45 seconds and maintain a higher damage output. With a 6-hit and no Haste in gear, a Ukon WAR gets 100 TP every 50 seconds including WS delay. If you add 50% Haste (Hasso, Haste, gear), they get 100 TP every 26 seconds (again including WS delay). If you add things like GG wanted to add, they start self-skillchaining.

I'm sorry if this is unclear. I tried to show all the steps.



It would be more competitive if it was something like, "Compare Empyrean WAR/SAM and SMN/SAM soloing EP mobs outside Abyssea separately, including downtime." SMN really hurts when Haste comes into the equation.


Anyway, lovers of Summoner, you do your job a disservice by not being honest with yourself about its weak points. You should ask for worthwhile job adjustments that address some of the problems with the job of asking whether you're going to get a new avatar once a week and apparently arguing that your big-3 Staves don't need buffs.

[Alhanelem]

You don't really need to do that. No one here, except for one person, thinks that even the maximum possible damage SMN can output can match or come close to a war with relic/mythic. That's never what it was about, at least for me.