New 2-hour Abilities

Separated this from the other post because it's equally long and mostly unrelated

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Originally Posted by Camate

Finally, I have one request when submitting feedback. We have been seeing comments stating that “we don’t want this” and “totally remake it.” Your feedback is something we wish to utilize in our efforts to make the game better, so instead please try to be as specific as you can with how you’d like it aspects to change.

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Another idea to fix pup. This one is relatively simple, and covers both the new 2hour, and everything wrong with overdrive.

New 2hour:
Attunement: Duration 1:00
Effect: While active, any boosts the automaton gains from its attachments are applied to the player as well.

This is both deviously simple, and devilishly complex. It would essentially give player access to some of the very powerful tools the puppet has, but is unable to fully utilize, such as the offensive combination of target marker and attuner, as well as defensive tools like the armor plates and steam jacket. The idea is that while active, it shifts the focus nearly entirely to the master, and would be a great boon, but it still requires our pet to be there and the use of maneuvers. Now, obviously, certain things wouldn't apply, like attachments that influences things we simply don't have, like barrier module/hammermill/drum magazine, or the JA attachments (strobe/shock absorber/flashbulb). Whether or not it would include bonuses from maneuver absorbing abilities is the real question.

My idea for fixing overdrive is two fold.

First, instead of simply JA haste, include a global reduction in delay, that would also influence spellcasting recasts (specifically the 4 second global delay more than the individual category delays), and ranged attack rate. Essentially, this would give the ability a combined access to either a reduced hundred fists effect or a reduced chain spell effect depending on which puppet is being used, and if using sharpshot, would allow sharpshot to attack with a real ranged attack rate, not it's quirky JA attack rate. Sharpshot's TP is calculated with a 360 delay, so I would say give sharpshot 360 ranged attack delay (3~4 seconds between shots) while overdrive is active.

Secondly, play up the emphasis on maneuvers. Reduce the maneuver recast from 10 seconds to 3~5 seconds while Overdrive is active, and increase the duration of maneuvers used while overdrive is active to 2-3 minutes, so we can get a little extra benefit out of it even after the ability wears off. If you really wanted to boost it, add in the bonus of maneuver-consuming attachments not consuming the maneuvers when they activate while overload is active.

This change more clearly emphasizes the puppet's strengths, and gives the feel of a real pet-focused 2hour. Overdrive doesn't really put our puppet into Overdrive, or even, really, "Augment(s) the fighting ability of (y)our automaton to its maximum level. " It just makes makes them flail around a little bit faster and resist enfeebling effects.

Hey everyone,

We would like to respond to some of the comments made regarding the new 2-hour ability adjustments.

WAR:
The effect is the same as Formless Strikes, but since the job is different and the special traits are different as well, it’s not like you will receive the same exact effect. We’d be happy to hear feedback on the results of WARs using this ability. In regards to wanting the ability’s effect to apply to weapon skills as well, this would make it so that it is far stronger than Mighty Strikes. As an alternative, we are extending the effect duration to open up more attack opportunities.

DNC:
While this can be used similar to Meikyo Shisui, there are of course other ways to use it as well. Since there is an advantage point of being able to use it in combination with other abilities, there are a lot of different uses, so we would like to hear feedback after trying it and considering that aspect as well.

BST:
We understand that sacrificing your pet for Stoneskin results in a reduction in attack power. This Stoneskin effect is not used like the magic spell Stoneskin that you would use before entering a fight. It is something that is used in a crisis situation in order to recover and avoid emergencies (For example, if your pet is on the verge of dying and when that happens you will be put in a dangerous spot, etc.)

PLD:
Once we are able to talk concretely about the enmity adjustments we will be making a comment, so please wait a bit on this.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

Hey everyone,

We would like to respond to some of the comments made regarding the new 2-hour ability adjustments.

WAR:
The effect is the same as Formless Strikes, but since the job is different and the special traits are different as well, it’s not like you will receive the same exact effect. We’d be happy to hear feedback on the results of WARs using this ability. In regards to wanting the ability’s effect to apply to weapon skills as well, this would make it so that it is far stronger than Mighty Strikes. As an alternative, we are extending the effect duration to open up more attack opportunities.

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Tomahawk

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

BST:
We understand that sacrificing your pet for Stoneskin results in a reduction in attack power. This Stoneskin effect is not used like the magic spell Stoneskin that you would use before entering a fight. It is something that is used in a crisis situation in order to recover and avoid emergencies (For example, if your pet is on the verge of dying and when that happens you will be put in a dangerous spot, etc.)

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Dawn_Mulsum
Pet_Food_Theta_Biscuit

As a side note, there has been no mention about Thief 2-hour ability at all since the initial reveal weeks ago. We are unable to dispute it's uselessness in detail without any concrete information about it's parameters. Could you please tell us how terrible it is?

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

Hey everyone,

We would like to respond to some of the comments made regarding the new 2-hour ability adjustments.

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Well, I look forward to your reply.

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WAR:
The effect is the same as Formless Strikes, but since the job is different and the special traits are different as well, it’s not like you will receive the same exact effect. We’d be happy to hear feedback on the results of WARs using this ability. In regards to wanting the ability’s effect to apply to weapon skills as well, this would make it so that it is far stronger than Mighty Strikes. As an alternative, we are extending the effect duration to open up more attack opportunities.

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I like some of what you said here, the last part to be specific. Longer duration is good, however this would be farm from better than Mighty Strikes if it worked on WSs, as Mighty Strikes works on WSs, and would dominate on anything without somewhat decent to high PDT. However when you last spoke of these abilities, you said you want to have them as situational use, in which case, would Mighty Strikes not be the better choice when a mob has no PDT? And couldn't the same be said for this new one when a mob does have high PDT? It seems as if adding the damage to WSs would only help to balance the situational use you wish it to have. Also...

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The effect is the same as Formless Strikes, but since the job is different and the special traits are different as well, it’s not like you will receive the same exact effect.

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I hope you know how stupid this makes you sound. You are telling us that the effects of this ability that takes 2 hours to use again is basically the same as an ability that thats 10 minutes to use again. Also look at their duration, I am sure this will have a 1 Minute duration at most, to follow in line with others, where as Formless has 3 minute duration. So as I said, I hope you know just how stupid this makes you sound, and hope you think about revising it.

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DNC:
While this can be used similar to Meikyo Shisui, there are of course other ways to use it as well. Since there is an advantage point of being able to use it in combination with other abilities, there are a lot of different uses, so we would like to hear feedback after trying it and considering that aspect as well.

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Ill give you this one, it is a nice 2-hour, however I still think it may be a bit to limiting.

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BST:
We understand that sacrificing your pet for Stoneskin results in a reduction in attack power. This Stoneskin effect is not used like the magic spell Stoneskin that you would use before entering a fight. It is something that is used in a crisis situation in order to recover and avoid emergencies (For example, if your pet is on the verge of dying and when that happens you will be put in a dangerous spot, etc.)

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You don't understand the flaw here it would seem. Please look at the first thing in your reply on this subject...

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We understand that sacrificing your pet for Stoneskin results in a reduction in attack power.

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This is not why the 2-hour is rejected by players, its because pets are used by BST for a defensive tool in almost all cases. It becomes the tank, and your essentially asking me to offer my tank, so that I can gain Stoneskin, which makes no sense because then I am the tank, because I lost my tank, and now I'm being hit instead, making me easier to kill really. Its like me dropping my Ephemeron, because I want a Swiftwing, your giving us something worse than we already had to protect us when we use this ability, not only that but we get this every 2 hours? Its just flawed, please, do something else. I am not a BST, but as I have said before, I think the way to go with this is add NM specific moves to all pets, and have them only usable by these pets under the effect of the new 2-hour. For instance, Mandragora family pets would gain access to Petalback Spin, nearly every family of mob in the game could have this sort of power, an ability only used by NMs of their family.

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PLD:
Once we are able to talk concretely about the enmity adjustments we will be making a comment, so please wait a bit on this.

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So long as you can give me your word we will not see this ability become worthless due to an early release, and it works out, I will have no problems. However please understand, I have my full attention on watching for any word on Enmity updates, because it is vital to how the game will function after they occur I think.

These 2-hrs are a good chance for the Devs to start listening to player feedback again and they are kinda blowing it. When the entire community is in consensus that the BST 2hr needs to be scrapped and rebuilt as something completely different take the hint.

If that is a proper translation of the devs response to the WAR 2hr being underpowered they need open their windows calculator and read this:

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Originally Posted by Byrth

WAR: The 2-hour still doesn't affect WS damage, so it still isn't worthwhile. Warriors have about a 50/50 WS/TP damage split. Assuming Crits double damage (which they will against any enemy that is worth 2-houring), then the monster would need to have more than 75% PDT for the new 2-hour to be worth using.

Not only that, but you've already given us the necessary tool to invalidate this 2-hour entirely, Tomahawk. If a monster has 100% PDT and you Tomahawk it, for a little while it has 70% PDT. If 75% PDT is the cut-off, then Tomahawk + Mighty Strikes (30% with AF2+2 feet and 5/5 merits) is better than using this 2-hour.

You need to make this 2-hour apply to weapon skills too.

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then understand it and have their minds blown.

And no mention about RDM's 2hr ... which all the RDM's think is utter sh!t due to its stupidly low duration and really weak bonus.

SE it needs fixed, 3 min duration with 2x potency bonus and 2x duration bonus. Anything less is pretty much useless.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

BST:
We understand that sacrificing your pet for Stoneskin results in a reduction in attack power. This Stoneskin effect is not used like the magic spell Stoneskin that you would use before entering a fight. It is something that is used in a crisis situation in order to recover and avoid emergencies (For example, if your pet is on the verge of dying and when that happens you will be put in a dangerous spot, etc.)

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And there's a good solid reason why our pet absolutely must be sacrificed? Other jobs 2hrs actually have effects that cancel the usage of tools and ammo and such. We lose a jug. Why?

The problem with the dancer two hour is that it really has no utility outside of a damage spike, thus giving no incentive to bring a dancer to an event - nobody is going to bring a dancer over say, a samurai because it can "fill a variety of roles" - nobody plays the game like this, which is why middle-of-the road jobs with no real direction as of yet like RDM and DNC struggle to find roles in the current endgame content.

Please stop insulting your playerbase by writing off our complaints/frustrations about these abilites (the fact that you're still trying to justify the bst's 2 hour when literally every beastmaster has said that eating your pet in a pinch situation rather than enhancing your pet which is the primary tank is a bad idea? Just take the hint already and come up with something new) - don't tell us how these abilities are justified in existing because you had an intended scenario of use for them - trust your playerbase who have been playing this game for 10 years for heaven's sake.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

Hey everyone

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Hey.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

WAR:
The effect is the same as Formless Strikes, but since the job is different and the special traits are different as well, it’s not like you will receive the same exact effect. We’d be happy to hear feedback on the results of WARs using this ability. In regards to wanting the ability’s effect to apply to weapon skills as well, this would make it so that it is far stronger than Mighty Strikes. As an alternative, we are extending the effect duration to open up more attack opportunities.

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This is not justifiable. As has been referenced repeatedly in this thread, Formless Strikes is a three minute duration ability of the same effect with a recast of ten minutes. To make this ability justifiable for Warriors to expend their two-hour timer on, the ability must be significantly more powerful in the hands of a Warrior, which it is only slightly (and even that is debatable). The point with regard to weapon skills making the ability more powerful than Mighty Strikes is true, I'm sure, but was suggested as an offset to make this ability more powerful than Formless Strikes. Do not forget that Mighty Strikes is compatible with weaponskills, and drastically increases their damage output too.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

DNC:
While this can be used similar to Meikyo Shisui, there are of course other ways to use it as well. Since there is an advantage point of being able to use it in combination with other abilities, there are a lot of different uses, so we would like to hear feedback after trying it and considering that aspect as well.

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The player base has a tendency to optimize: whenever a 'versatile' system or ability with 'a lot of different uses' occurs in the game, the players will immediately optimize to the best route of that system for each desired role of the system. Surely the development team has seen the Bluegartr FFXI Advanced: The New Standard forum, no? Saying it has a "lot of different uses" is not justification for making any possible outcome of the ability weaker than the other option presented - Trance - in virtually any situation.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

BST:
We understand that sacrificing your pet for Stoneskin results in a reduction in attack power. This Stoneskin effect is not used like the magic spell Stoneskin that you would use before entering a fight. It is something that is used in a crisis situation in order to recover and avoid emergencies (For example, if your pet is on the verge of dying and when that happens you will be put in a dangerous spot, etc.)

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

reduction in attack power

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Well that's one way to put it. Though, props to the development team for providing an example situation, I know the forum-abiding player base has been requesting that for a while.

I'm starting to understand the developers' intentions behind this ability. Beastmaster is a primarily solo job, and yet it lacks in the way of crisis-averting, ass-saving abilities. But does that really make it justifiable for a two-hour?

(The answer is no, by the way.)

If this is the direction the development team wants to take the new Beastmaster 2-hour, there are a myriad of other options that would be vastly superior to this, many of which have already been suggested in the forums, so I will save my vast and boundless creativity.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

PLD:
Once we are able to talk concretely about the enmity adjustments we will be making a comment, so please wait a bit on this.

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The development team had better present some math when these enmity adjustments are finalized. The problems with the current enmity system are invisible without numbers to clarify what's going on behind the graphics.

(See that? My vast and boundless creativity, at work. Please, ladies, one at a time...)

Can we expect any comments on the Thief and Red Mage new two-hour abilities? I understand there is quite a bit of dissatisfaction in the test server player base with regard to those.

And still nothing about DRK and the 30 seconds duration on this crappy 2hr? Can we just fix BW before we get any new 2hr? BW needs to be 60 seconds in duration and should reset the recast timers of all dark magic upon its use. Drks only have about 5 good spells its about time there is something to boost our magic side.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

Hey everyone,

We would like to respond to some of the comments made regarding the new 2-hour ability adjustments.

WAR:
The effect is the same as Formless Strikes, but since the job is different and the special traits are different as well, it’s not like you will receive the same exact effect. We’d be happy to hear feedback on the results of WARs using this ability. In regards to wanting the ability’s effect to apply to weapon skills as well, this would make it so that it is far stronger than Mighty Strikes. As an alternative, we are extending the effect duration to open up more attack opportunities.

DNC:
While this can be used similar to Meikyo Shisui, there are of course other ways to use it as well. Since there is an advantage point of being able to use it in combination with other abilities, there are a lot of different uses, so we would like to hear feedback after trying it and considering that aspect as well.

BST:
We understand that sacrificing your pet for Stoneskin results in a reduction in attack power. This Stoneskin effect is not used like the magic spell Stoneskin that you would use before entering a fight. It is something that is used in a crisis situation in order to recover and avoid emergencies (For example, if your pet is on the verge of dying and when that happens you will be put in a dangerous spot, etc.)

PLD:
Once we are able to talk concretely about the enmity adjustments we will be making a comment, so please wait a bit on this.

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I don't understand how WAR's new 2-hour would be more powerful than mighty strikes if it worked on weapon skills considering mighty strikes already works on melee attacks and weapon skills? Something must have been mistranslated?

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

DNC:
While this can be used similar to Meikyo Shisui, there are of course other ways to use it as well. Since there is an advantage point of being able to use it in combination with other abilities, there are a lot of different uses, so we would like to hear feedback after trying it and considering that aspect as well.

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There ARE other ways that it can be used, you are correct. But they are all inferior to using Reverse Flourish 3 times. You would, ideally, use Climactic Flourish before this 2 hour. That buff would last long enough to add that crit effect to every WS you use with those Reverse Flourishes. Every other Flourish from there becomes worthless, because they will reduce your damage output.

The Developers have to realize, a lot of our Flourishes are WIDELY unused, because they are either not worth Finishing Moves + Cooldown, or are simply beaten by other flourishes. I can tell you, I never really use Desperate, Animated, Wild, Building, Striking, or Ternary Flourish, except to maybe proc in Dynamis in a few of their cases.

I highly suggest exploring ways to allow us to use multiple flourishes, or add something to this 2 hour. I don't want to lose the ability you've given us though, being able to Reverse 3 times is definitely an upside to what you've had before, but it's still missing a little something. Remember, we optimize everything you give us, you can't just say "Well if you avoid using this ability in the best way possible, it has many uses."

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

BST:
We understand that sacrificing your pet for Stoneskin results in a reduction in attack power. This Stoneskin effect is not used like the magic spell Stoneskin that you would use before entering a fight. It is something that is used in a crisis situation in order to recover and avoid emergencies (For example, if your pet is on the verge of dying and when that happens you will be put in a dangerous spot, etc.)

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It's not about the reduction in attack power.
There is zero use for having stoneskin + cure on the master for a 2 hour, especially not at the cost of your pet.
Like I said before, this 2 hour would still be worthless even if your pet was kept alive. Nobody needs this on BST. Ever.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

Hey everyone,

We would like to respond to some of the comments made regarding the new 2-hour ability adjustments.

WAR:
Longer duration.

DNC:
Already improved.

BST:
Already improved (though still useless)

PLD:
Once we are able to talk concretely about the enmity adjustments we will be making a comment, so please wait a bit on this.

RDM:
This ability is indeed terrible, but since noone plays RDM for real end-game events, we're not interested.

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That's how I read it.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

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WAR:
The effect is the same as Formless Strikes, but since the job is different and the special traits are different as well, it’s not like you will receive the same exact effect. We’d be happy to hear feedback on the results of WARs using this ability. In regards to wanting the ability’s effect to apply to weapon skills as well, this would make it so that it is far stronger than Mighty Strikes. As an alternative, we are extending the effect duration to open up more attack opportunities.

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As I said before and Insaniak pointed out again, this is just not correct. What you've made is a 2-hour that's inferior to Tomahawk + Mighty Strikes, and Tomahawk's effect extends to the entire party and would be desired in the same situations. Are we supposed to use this when we're solo zerging Jailer of Temperance in the wrong mode?

Currently, with a 50% TP/WS split and crits doubling damage, both of which are estimations in favor of the new 2-hour for events like Legion, the monster would need 96% PDT for the new 2-hour to be superior to Mighty Strikes (Tomahawk used in both cases). Under more realistic conditions the new 2-hour is probably never superior. If you changed it so WSs are also affected, the monster would need 71% PDT for the new 2-hour to be superior to Mighty Strikes.

As it currently stands the new 2-hour is good only for cases of almost total physical immunity. If you changed it to include WSs the world would not fall apart, but we could use it in a few more cases.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

DNC:
While this can be used similar to Meikyo Shisui, there are of course other ways to use it as well. Since there is an advantage point of being able to use it in combination with other abilities, there are a lot of different uses, so we would like to hear feedback after trying it and considering that aspect as well.

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I figured that would be your response. Functionally, though, the best thing you can do with this 2-hour is make a really long skillchain or (for anything involving a party) do three WSs back to back. You may have to waste one of your 2-hour Flourishes to re-apply Climactic Flourish depending on how many hits get through, but I think it can be done with good enough timing:

Party: Climactic Flourish (5 FM) -> Rudra's Storm -> No Foot Rise (4 FM) -> Reverse -> Rudra's Storm -> 2-hour -> Reverse -> Rudra's Storm -> Reverse -> Rudra's Storm -> Reverse -> Rudra's Storm

Again, though you hype the versatility of this 2-hour it's actually fairly limited. Here's why:

1) Reverse is clearly our best damage option, whether starting/continuing a skillchain or going solo. Wild has some potential if you're low on FMs (aka not while using this 2-hour) and solo, but with 5 FMs there's no reason to use anything but Reverse. Building isn't even in the picture unless you're fighting very very difficult monsters (where no one would bring a Dancer due to level correction killing 1H damage).

2) Even though you've reduced the timer, we still cannot use multiple Tier 3 Flourishes (not that we'd want to even if we could) because they are all exclusive with each other. If you use Ternary with Climactic up, Climactic is overwritten, etc.

3) Flourishes I is still not very useful. Why would I want to use 3 Desperate Flourishes in a row when Rudra's gives a more powerful form of Gravity? Why would I want to use three Animated Flourishes in a row when I could just hit the monster and get more enmity in the same amount of time? Why would I want to activate my 2-hour (which takes a second) so that I can use Violent Flourish three times in a row? Is there some monster I'm fighting that's resistant (but not immune) to my Stun effect that uses a long charge-time TP move or spell that I only need to stun once every 2 hours?


There is definitely still room for improvement, but I'll take a dagger version of Meikyo Shisui over the previous (totally useless) 2-hour. Still, please realize that what you've given us is just an inferior version of Meikyo Shisui, which lasts longer (if for some reason that was an issue), grants ~4 WSs instead of 3 with the augmented armor, and gives 300/225/150 TP WSs instead of ~100TP WSs. Also, they're using a GKT instead of a dagger and don't have to rely on another buff to make their WSs do decent damage.

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DNC:
While this can be used similar to Meikyo Shisui, there are of course other ways to use it as well. Since there is an advantage point of being able to use it in combination with other abilities, there are a lot of different uses, so we would like to hear feedback after trying it and considering that aspect as well.

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like everyone said since your post, still no other choice would beat the fake sam 2h as the only viable options are for damage dealing.
also, since the flourishes 3, the dev team seems to have forgotten that dnc was supposed to be somewhat of a support job, not just another DD.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

BST:
We understand that sacrificing your pet for Stoneskin results in a reduction in attack power. This Stoneskin effect is not used like the magic spell Stoneskin that you would use before entering a fight. It is something that is used in a crisis situation in order to recover and avoid emergencies (For example, if your pet is on the verge of dying and when that happens you will be put in a dangerous spot, etc.)

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I can honestly say in the 3 or so years I've been playing BST, I have never once encountered a situation such as this and if you do, then you are fighting something you shouldn't be and this will only delay the inevitable or you have no idea how BST works. Something tells me the devs are the latter.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

As I said before and Insaniak pointed out again, this is just not correct. What you've made is a 2-hour that's inferior to Tomahawk + Mighty Strikes, and Tomahawk's effect extends to the entire party and would be desired in the same situations. Are we supposed to use this when we're solo zerging Jailer of Temperance in the wrong mode?

Currently, with a 50% TP/WS split and crits doubling damage, both of which are estimations in favor of the new 2-hour for events like Legion, the monster would need 96% PDT for the new 2-hour to be superior to Mighty Strikes (Tomahawk used in both cases). Under more realistic conditions the new 2-hour is probably never superior. If you changed it so WSs are also affected, the monster would need 71% PDT for the new 2-hour to be superior to Mighty Strikes.

As it currently stands the new 2-hour is good only for cases of almost total physical immunity. If you changed it to include WSs the world would not fall apart, but we could use it in a few more cases.



I figured that would be your response. Functionally, though, the best thing you can do with this 2-hour is make a really long skillchain or (for anything involving a party) do three WSs back to back. You may have to waste one of your 2-hour Flourishes to re-apply Climactic Flourish depending on how many hits get through, but I think it can be done with good enough timing:

Party: Climactic Flourish (5 FM) -> Rudra's Storm -> No Foot Rise (4 FM) -> Reverse -> Rudra's Storm -> 2-hour -> Reverse -> Rudra's Storm -> Reverse -> Rudra's Storm -> Reverse -> Rudra's Storm

Again, though you hype the versatility of this 2-hour it's actually fairly limited. Here's why:

1) Reverse is clearly our best damage option, whether starting/continuing a skillchain or going solo. Wild has some potential if you're low on FMs (aka not while using this 2-hour) and solo, but with 5 FMs there's no reason to use anything but Reverse. Building isn't even in the picture unless you're fighting very very difficult monsters (where no one would bring a Dancer due to level correction killing 1H damage).

2) Even though you've reduced the timer, we still cannot use multiple Tier 3 Flourishes (not that we'd want to even if we could) because they are all exclusive with each other. If you use Ternary with Climactic up, Climactic is overwritten, etc.

3) Flourishes I is still not very useful. Why would I want to use 3 Desperate Flourishes in a row when Rudra's gives a more powerful form of Gravity? Why would I want to use three Animated Flourishes in a row when I could just hit the monster and get more enmity in the same amount of time? Why would I want to activate my 2-hour (which takes a second) so that I can use Violent Flourish three times in a row? Is there some monster I'm fighting that's resistant (but not immune) to my Stun effect that uses a long charge-time TP move or spell that I only need to stun once every 2 hours?


There is definitely still room for improvement, but I'll take a dagger version of Meikyo Shisui over the previous (totally useless) 2-hour. Still, please realize that what you've given us is just an inferior version of Meikyo Shisui, which lasts longer (if for some reason that was an issue), grants ~4 WSs instead of 3 with the augmented armor, and gives 300/225/150 TP WSs instead of ~100TP WSs. Also, they're using a GKT instead of a dagger and don't have to rely on another buff to make their WSs do decent damage.

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You guys' dispute reminds me another, not long in the past, battle to unsuck Dancer. This day, anyone even remembers what Ternary Flourish is? When it was meant to be implemented and everyone was saing that it's useless/waste of development potential, Square Enix has replied with this:

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

As we have explained before, we hope you understand that Ternary Flourish was implemented with future growth in mind. We plan on strengthening this ability through equipment and merits, and we appreciate your patience as we do so.

We plan on adjusting all jobs, but our highest priorities right now are adjusting puppetmaster, corsair, scholar, dragoon, and warrior’s firepower. We will be working on these job adjustments in order of priority.

In response to a comment asking for Charis Casaque (+1 and +2) to apply to Ternary Flourish as well... if Charis Casaque (+1 and +2) also increased the effects of Ternary Flourish, they would be too powerful as gear items, so we do not plan on implementing those adjustments.

Also, Flourish-type abilities are not separated by rank or effectiveness, but are separated so that they are useful in different situations, so even if an item were to increase the effects of Ternary Flourish, the effects would not be exactly the same as "increasing the effects of Striking Flourish."

Please continue to offer up your feedback on how you want dancer to shine and we will use them as reference points when we think of support abilities for dancers.

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Ternary Flourish is still useless, there was no merits/equipment ever added to make it worthwhile. Everyone just felt like their feedback got completely ignored.
Déjà vu.

Why do people care so much about warrior? It is already far and away the most powerful melee. Let's worry about jobs that really could use a boost via a 2 hour, not making war more broken.

They still do not get it AT ALL about why people play beastmaster. Please revise this god awful new 2 hours, we will never use it, it is totally utter worthless garbage. There is no way we are in a critical situation like this when there is dawn mulsum and pet food handy. EVER! If anything, this idea is a fantastic for job ability and a great improvement of run wild, you should add the stoneskin effect to run wild instead - we loose our pet, we gain stoneskin, enough protection to use another call beast ability.

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Originally Posted by Siiri

Why do people care so much about warrior? It is already far and away the most powerful melee. Let's worry about jobs that really could use a boost via a 2 hour, not making war more broken.

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Because we don't like the devs adding stupid things. I would rather them add nothing at all instead of something stupid, at least then they don't waste their time. If they are going to make an ability, they need to do it right and make it good, maybe then they might realize what good ideas are and aren't.

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Originally Posted by Zadimortis

This is not justifiable. As has been referenced repeatedly in this thread, Formless Strikes is a three minute duration ability of the same effect with a recast of ten minutes. To make this ability justifiable for Warriors to expend their two-hour timer on, the ability must be significantly more powerful in the hands of a Warrior, which it is only slightly (and even that is debatable). The point with regard to weapon skills making the ability more powerful than Mighty Strikes is true, I'm sure, but was suggested as an offset to make this ability more powerful than Formless Strikes. Do not forget that Mighty Strikes is compatible with weaponskills, and drastically increases their damage output too.

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Great! ; ; now that you pointed out that Mighty Strikes works with Weaponskills they gunna fix it now T__T. Bet they had no idea it did...

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

I'm saying there are worse and you ignore the good your ability has. One of the most complained about parts of events right now is that everything has attacks that do way to much damage, this gives you the power to limit those massively by removing the TP from them as they get it, then fire it back at them for more damage than you had before. BST gets to gain defense by losing their best defense, RDM gets to have slightly stronger buffs that are barley better and the duration is to short to even buff properly, let alone others like Embrava does. Your not getting the short end of the stick, DRK is a nice 2-hour, there are much worse around right now.

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You just don't get it my friend, this is not a good 2hr especially for drk. If this was made to control ADL the implementation is bad. Once this go live, drk will be barred from doing any weapon skills to ADL for fear of replenishing his TP. Linkshells will say drk 2hr "melee only please." This is not a zerg, and it doesnt help drk zerg at ALL. Drk would be turned into a pseudo tp-tank, I as a drk do not want that, I want to zerg, and we need a 2hr that helps us zerg. If SE allows ws's to also tp-drain than this would be a great 2hr.

Not to mention this is another DRK 2hr that will more then likely have us using alternate weapons for multi hits again. Instead of using scythe or great sword for dmg it will become the new KC 2hr, with mobs being resistant/immune to Souleater, All this 2hr did was change the rules " ok the mob is immune to Souleater, guess i'll use the new 2hr and KC lock it down".... how about a 2hr that doesnt "require" us to use a different weapon type.

The 2hr does sound nice but due to the low duration it is impractical to use with great sword or scythe. IMO when ppl start doing lock down zergs with this new 2hr i can bet it will be nerfed to hell just like the SEBW zergs.

I'm done arguing with you. I play DRK to, I see this as an ok ability, yes it could be better but I'm ok with how it is, all I have to say on the subject anymore.

if the duration is 30 seconds, is it not to much to ask for it to effect weaponskills also?

What about Formless Axes will make it more powerful for a warrior than for a monk? Fists or axes, it's all just damage and damage evens out a lot between two equally geared jobs.

And what would make this two hour more powerful than MS for WS? The accuracy bonus? Are you going to give us a 16-hit WS with an Acc penalty you haven't unveiled yet? Because I assure you Mighty Strikes with a little more accuracy gear (we've got literal scads of it) would be better in this situation too. Does the Accuracy bonus bypass Perfect Dodge?

And for Dancer, please just give up that fight too. Change the two hour to something that boosts the potency of sambas. Then the party could benefit from the support job's two hour. Need fast attack? 25% JA Haste Samba please. Some stupid monster with 100/tick Bio aura? 120/hit Drain Samba III.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

Hey everyone,

We would like to respond to some of the comments made regarding the new 2-hour ability adjustments.

WAR:
The effect is the same as Formless Strikes, but since the job is different and the special traits are different as well, it’s not like you will receive the same exact effect. We’d be happy to hear feedback on the results of WARs using this ability. In regards to wanting the ability’s effect to apply to weapon skills as well, this would make it so that it is far stronger than Mighty Strikes. As an alternative, we are extending the effect duration to open up more attack opportunities.

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Again, like everyone else is saying, Tomahawk completely negates your reasoning, because it lasts longer (up to 1:30) and applies to the entire party/alliance, rather than the war alone.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

DNC:
While this can be used similar to Meikyo Shisui, there are of course other ways to use it as well. Since there is an advantage point of being able to use it in combination with other abilities, there are a lot of different uses, so we would like to hear feedback after trying it and considering that aspect as well.

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I'm very curious as to what constitutes "a lot of different uses" when you take the 9 flourishes into account...

Flourish I:
- Animated Flourish: Provoke
- Desperate Flourish: Gravity
- Violent Flourish: Stun
Flourish II:
- Reverse Flourish: TP restore
- Building Flourish: WS buff
- Wild Flourish: Very weak skill chain opener (Read: very weak skill chains, not very weak opener, though it's that as well)
Flourish III: Note: all three effects are mutually exclusive
- Climactic Flourish: 1-5 Consecutively Nonconsecutive forced critical hits (1 per attack round/ws, on consecutive attack rounds/ws, not consecutive attacks in a single round/ws)
- Striking Flourish: a single, forced double attack
- Ternary Flourish: a single, forced triple attack

So, you have 2 enfeebling abilities, 1 enmity ability, none of which are worth using in a 2 hour scenario, because you can only apply gravity once, once it sticks, and it's not a very potent gravity, and if something needs to be stunned, you'd be better off just stunning it regularly, or at worst, popping no foot rise, than popping your 2hour. If you want enmity, you'd get a significantly larger amount through trance. As it stands right now, and even more so before the current changes, there is not one single scenario in which any flourish from Flourish I would ever be worth using with this 2hour. Absolutely none. You could argue that being able to use 3 violent flourishes in quick succession is a powerful ability, but that argument is totally invalidated by the very existence of blue mage. Blue can use quick stuns ad infinitum, with enough refresh. Why would dnc waste ther 2hour to do something that a level 12 blue mage can do better?

So Flourish I is written out of use for this new 2hour. That leaves II and III, 5 of which focus purely on dealing damage, and 1 (reverse) heavily on it. Given the cost and recast time of Striking and Ternary flourishes, there's absolutely no point using them on regular attacks normally, and as neither consumes 5 FM, but this 2hour is now limited to 3 flourish uses total, both lose out in terms of worth. Which leaves climactic flourish as the only worthwhile flourish from III, for now.

Now, again due to the nature of not using all 5 FMs, and due to how functionally weak it is anyway, wild flourish is simply dropped. Building Flourish does not use all 5 FMs either, but it does give a moderate WS buff, though more so to critical hit ws than other ws. However, it would be a waste compared to the other options.

Thus, 7 of the 9 flourishes are not worth using during this 2 hour that focuses on flourishes. That leaves us only with climactic flourish and reverse flourish, as they're the only two flourishes able to fully take advantage of this 2hour's effect. Additionally, of the two, climactic is purely damage focused, and results in significantly less damage than reverse flourish on an individual level, and is hindered further by only being able to, realistically, make 1 practical use of it for the 2 hour itself.

That means reverse flourish is, undeniably, the only flourish worth using with this 2hour. There are no scenarios in which any of the other flourishes would be a better choice. Striking and Ternary could be argued to use for TP gain, but neither would net more TP than simply using Reverse flourish. The "lot of different uses" that the devs seem to think exist, well, do not exist. Not in the Final Fantasy XI we play, anyway. 3x reverse flourish constitutes the largest amount of damage output, and the support output it could, potentially, deliver, while larger than any other option, is still significantly smaller than anything trance could sneeze at, so the only reason to use this ability is for damage. Thus, no matter the situation, 3 extra ws would be the best and only real choice.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

BST:
We understand that sacrificing your pet for Stoneskin results in a reduction in attack power. This Stoneskin effect is not used like the magic spell Stoneskin that you would use before entering a fight. It is something that is used in a crisis situation in order to recover and avoid emergencies (For example, if your pet is on the verge of dying and when that happens you will be put in a dangerous spot, etc.)

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The problem has absolutely nothing to do with offensive power. The problem is that SACRIFICING YOUR PET IS A MONUMENTAL REDUCTION IN DEFENSIVE POWER (when you translate our complaints, please, please, please emphasize that we're not talking about offense at all), that stoneskin simply cannot overcome. You want to give bst a defensive, crisis-recovery 2hour? Well, then you should have given them what you gave drg; a massive pet recovery ability, complete with stat buffs or, hey, maybe give the PET the stoneskin. Bst's pets are viewed, and used, as primarily defensive tools. Bsts rarely ever use their pets with the pet's offensive ability as their primary reason for their pet choice.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

PLD:
Once we are able to talk concretely about the enmity adjustments we will be making a comment, so please wait a bit on this.

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That's fine, just bring math when you do. Don't give us "a large amount" or "very quickly" give us the exact amounts and how quickly in exact seconds. There's no point talking about enmity without that.

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Originally Posted by Cljader1

And still nothing about DRK and the 30 seconds duration on this crappy 2hr? Can we just fix BW before we get any new 2hr? BW needs to be 60 seconds in duration and should reset the recast timers of all dark magic upon its use. Drks only have about 5 good spells its about time there is something to boost our magic side.

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Stop bitching about something that isn't broken, my god. Drk got one of the few actually useful 2hours. Drk doesn't need another offense boosting zerg ability. It doesn't. Desperate blows, coupled with drk's use of very powerful weapons, and very powerful weaponskills (read: greatswords, lolscythe) and combined with bloodweapon makes for a very strong, very hard to kill damage spewing monster at high haste. It's also the only 2h job that can easily cap haste, and that can do so without a dnc for haste samba.

Consider this: This 2hour only needs a single person to use it at a time, because the monster only has 1 TP pool. Nearly every high end NM currently possesses potent regain and very, very dangerous TP abilities. In a zerg, the amount of TP the NM will be getting is going to be immense.

Now, consider greatswords and scythes at haste cap: The average floored delay (80% reduction) for greatswords is around 91, while scythes are around 103. That means great swords will swing at a rate of around 1 attack round every 1.55 seconds, while scythes will be around 1.75 seconds. This means over 40 seconds (since the relic+2 2hour buff applies, currently) greatsword will have 25 attack rounds, while scythe will have 22. That's only rounds. That doesn't account for double/triple/quadruple attack, or misses. I'm not going to pretend to have any idea how much DA/TA/QA is on a typical drk zerg set, and just use a rough average of 25% DA since that seems to be fairly close for most jobs that aren't war or thf.

That would give greatsword 31 attacks and scythe 27, both before accuracy. Thus, even with scythe, you're still draining at rate between once every 1-2 seconds. With how potent the TP drain has been shown to be, and how mob AI works, there would need to be a significant amount of melees and/or regain present to negate that TP drain, and thus, essentially, this ability would give drk one of the strongest NM controlling abilities in the game. Why the hell are you complaining about it? You're going to get invited to zergs whether you have it or not. You're a fucking drk.

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Originally Posted by Cljader1

if the duration is 30 seconds, is it not to much to ask for it to effect weaponskills also?

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That I'm ok with, same with a duration increase, but either way you look at it this is not bad it just doesn't live up to what it could be if they increase or allow it to effect certain aspects.

Do I need to keep responding about the bst 2 hour? If SE is really married to the idea, you can roll it out, but no one will use it or love SE for it. It will not enhance the gameplay.

for defense, beastmaster already has options superior to this new ability which do NOT cost us our pet.
Reward > Pet Food Theta
Snarl
Dawn Mulsum

These are all awesome, very cool abilities.

There are generally only a few kinds of sticky situations bst can get into for defense on the master:
AoE attacks
Hate loss on pet.
strong paralyze and pet is dead.

If our pet is nearly dead a theta biscuit or a dawn mulsum will often cure 2.5k hp. That is as much as the stoneskin effect ever would be and it costs MUCH less. Currently we do not often have trouble w/ reward timers.

IF a mob is hitting us w/ large AoE attacks, the bst moves out of attack range while the pet is taking the hits, cure up a bit, and go back in when safer, or there might actually be someone in the party curing us....

Snarl is a FANTASTIC ability which saves from pet hate loss PERFECTLY on a 30 second recast. This is much cheaper than a 2 hour ability.

Other situations would be when there are multiple targets and you are having trouble establishing hate on all of them TO THE PET. the new 2 hour might buy some more time in such a situation, but it would take a very specific set of circumstances and previous screw ups by the player to get here, if they haven't already used familiar.

Paralyze and pet is dead > if pet is dead the new ability is useless.

Sacrificing a pet is completely Undesirable for anyone playing beastmaster. It feels like the cost of the new Warrior 2 hour would be an encumbrance effect as well.

The only game situation in which sacrificing the pet MIGHT be acceptable woudl be a zerg-typ situation (which bst is almost never included in anyway). In a zerg situation it is likely the AoE's from a HUGE NM like ADL would wipe out the pet too quickly for pet to be much help. In this situation a massive spike in Offense, not defense would be preferred.

I think the suggestion of a MASSIVE Killer Instinct effect (75%+) would be best IF developers insist on sacrificing the pet (which is silly to begin with),

There have been alot of other good suggestions 2 hour ability ideas for bst:

Pet call additional helpers of same type (not controllable) for short duration to attack pets

Meikyou shisui for pet ready moves + skillchains

apply the current plan for the pup's new 2 hour to bst.. ie apply mighty strikes for war type pets, invincible for pld type pets, perfect dodge for thf type pets, and 100 fists for mnk type pets, etc..

Unlock a super-powerful Ready move for our pet's family type taken from NM, such as petalback spin for mandies.

Inverse spirit-link where pet is buffed up (I guess familiar is a watered down version of this already.... I would like clarification if familiar is supposed to do anything beyond extending charm duration, raising pets max hp, and the newly added pet haste effect from monster trousers +2).

A 2hour HNM pet with limited duration.

there have been many other suggestions from players which would be great as well... even the exploding pet like a ninja would be preferable to the current sacrifice for stoneskin option available.

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Originally Posted by Theytak

That would give greatsword 31 attacks and scythe 27, both before accuracy. Thus, even with scythe, you're still draining at rate between once every 1-2 seconds. With how potent the TP drain has been shown to be, and how mob AI works, there would need to be a significant amount of melees and/or regain present to negate that TP drain, and thus, essentially, this ability would give drk one of the strongest NM controlling abilities in the game. Why the hell are you complaining about it? You're going to get invited to zergs whether you have it or not. You're a fucking drk.

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Just because your a drk dont mean you can participate in a zerg. Through the whole abyssea series and the climb to 99, drk have been embarrassed. I have been told by ukon wars "drk melee no thanks, stun only," I even been moved from the zerg group to the backlines to stun with the blms. Drks want too zerg and not babysit a mob for tp control, the last thing i dont want to see is drk being outlawed from doing there ws's. Allow the 2hr to drain-tp on ws and no matter what you can not stop drks from zerging. This would make everyone happy

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Originally Posted by Cljader1

Just because your a drk dont mean you can participate in a zerg. Through the whole abyssea series and the climb to 99, drk have been embarrassed. I have been told by ukon wars "drk melee no thanks, stun only," I even been moved from the zerg group to the backlines to stun with the blms. Drks want too zerg and not babysit a mob for tp control, the last thing i dont want to see is drk being outlawed from doing there ws's. Allow the 2hr to drain-tp on ws and no matter what you can not stop drks from zerging. This would make everyone happy

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...what? You need to find some smarter people to play with I think, there is no possible reason ever that a DRK should be on the back lines stunning instead of on the front lines DDing, especially since Resolution came out.

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Originally Posted by Cljader1

Just because your a drk dont mean you can participate in a zerg. Through the whole abyssea series and the climb to 99, drk have been embarrassed. I have been told by ukon wars "drk melee no thanks, stun only," I even been moved from the zerg group to the backlines to stun with the blms. Drks want too zerg and not babysit a mob for tp control, the last thing i dont want to see is drk being outlawed from doing there ws's. Allow the 2hr to drain-tp on ws and no matter what you can not stop drks from zerging. This would make everyone happy

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Idiot wars who don't understand that they're only barely ahead of drk in terms of damage don't make drk any less desired for zerg damage. You need to find less stupid people to play with. At least you get fucking invites at all.

Also, apparently, they added some working names for some of the 2hours:
war: Imminent Strikes
whm: Asylum
blm: Sublte Sorcery (The typo is in game)
rdm: Encomium
pld: Righteous Guard
drk: DRK2h (read: no name yet)
bst: Feral Sacrifice (So... yea)
brd: Malinconico
rng: Instinctive Aim
sam: Yaegasumi
nin: Tengen
drg: Rouse Wyvern
smn: Astral Conduit
blu: Unbridled Wisdom
cor: Three to One
pup: Heady Artifice (... /facepalm.... you make the terrible thing worse by giving it a punny name....)
dnc: Grand Pas
sch: Caper Emissarius

If nothing else, they're good at naming stuff. The names don't make them suck any less, but most of them do sound cool.

feral sacrifice... stop white-washing and call it what it is.

CANNIBALIZE!

Any word on when you'll finally add THF to the server? I would like to show my distaste for it as soon as possible.

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Originally Posted by Xilk

feral sacrifice... stop white-washing and call it what it is.

CANNIBALIZE!

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I loled from this! :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xilk

feral sacrifice... stop white-washing and call it what it is.

CANNIBALIZE!

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Yeah no kidding, Xilk. So when is our next job ability? Maybe another chance for a good one in two years? :/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cljader1

Just because your a drk dont mean you can participate in a zerg. Through the whole abyssea series and the climb to 99, drk have been embarrassed. I have been told by ukon wars "drk melee no thanks, stun only," I even been moved from the zerg group to the backlines to stun with the blms. Drks want too zerg and not babysit a mob for tp control, the last thing i dont want to see is drk being outlawed from doing there ws's. Allow the 2hr to drain-tp on ws and no matter what you can not stop drks from zerging. This would make everyone happy

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If you don't see the zerg benefit to being able to WS every 2 swings I can understand why you get moved out of the DD party. This is a solid 2 hour that not only increases DRKs damage output but carries a decent utility. The duration will probably be increased via merits and it will be even better.

I suggest the Beastmaster 2-hour be re-named "OM NOM NOM!" and its animation and sound effects be changed to that of a Soul Trapper to imply we are producing an instragram of what we're about to eat.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

WAR:
The effect is the same as Formless Strikes, but since the job is different and the special traits are different as well, it’s not like you will receive the same exact effect. We’d be happy to hear feedback on the results of WARs using this ability. In regards to wanting the ability’s effect to apply to weapon skills as well, this would make it so that it is far stronger than Mighty Strikes. As an alternative, we are extending the effect duration to open up more attack opportunities.

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Unless the goal is to create an ability that deals less damage than Mighty Strikes + Tomahawk on anything with less than 90~% physical immunity, this ability should be tested more thoroughly.

Every single player is getting the same result in this case. Every player. Same result. Mighty Strikes. Tomahawk.

If a lot of monsters in the coming expansion are going to have 100% physical immunity for more than one minute at a time, I am too terrified to care about lackluster new abilities any more.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

BST:
We understand that sacrificing your pet for Stoneskin results in a reduction in attack power. This Stoneskin effect is not used like the magic spell Stoneskin that you would use before entering a fight. It is something that is used in a crisis situation in order to recover and avoid emergencies (For example, if your pet is on the verge of dying and when that happens you will be put in a dangerous spot, etc.)

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If I'm in a situation awful enough that there's a chance of an emergency, I have already used Familiar for the +10% HP (and 10% Haste) it provides. I'm also carrying as many Dawn Muslums as my Mog Satchel will allow, if not losing horribly is really vital to me.

I would much prefer something to help me achieve my lofty goal of "don't suck" than to help me out when I do suck.