Thoughts on the FFXI Job Adjustment Manifesto

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Katalsar

I think since rapture enhances the potency of WHM spells this should enhance the potency of not just cure/dia/banish but stoneskin/phalanx/blink/bar-spells/regen/enmity spells/haste/aquaveil.

---

Rapture shouldn't increase the potency of Haste, Phalanx, or Bar-spells. Haste in particular because it is a incredibly powerful spell that makes or breaks game balance.

That said, it would make a lot of sense for Regen/Regain spells to be able to be augmented with Rapture.

Rather than improving the duration and magnitude of the heal, SE should just make it so that Regen is retroactive to damage under light arts. Thus, if regen lasts (X) ticks, you only use a tick when the person is sub (H) HP and have (H) increase as the level of regen increases. This would be different from PDT in that you take the full effect of the damage. This would be different from regen which "wastes" ticks. This would be different from cures in that you cannot use this method to cap HP and the effect is over time. This has much better utility prospective and aligns with SCH's emerging "over time" role.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sasaraixx

And per tradition, I will mention in every post I make in this forum until we see some feedback: PLEASE adjust Aldoquium and the Animus spells.

---

What kind of adjustment do you think it's needed?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zhronne

What kind of adjustment do you think it's needed?

---

They should increase Aldoquium to 2tp/tick and the Animus spells should decrease/increase enmity by a set percentage over time, instead of applying a straight +/-. It doesn't have to be a huge percentage but it would actually help to pull DD's back from the enmity cap. That alone would make it worth casting.

Animus Augeo works pretty fine, +20 enmity constantly on you is a good boost...
...in theory.
I said in theory because from my experience (which is very limited, not denying that) there are very few situations where such a spell is effective, and in those situations it usually doesn't really make a big difference.
Makes me wonder, is there a +enmity cap? Because if I recall there is a -enmity one.

The Minuo one is pretty lame instead, sure I'm not spitting on -10 enmity... I use it on myself from time to time, but it's not really a huge difference. Were they afraid people would have abused of this spell, dealing too much damage without gaining any hate, almost?
As far as I know it doesn't even count beyond the -enmity cap, so yeah, I agree that it would be awesome for them to tweak these 3 spells a bit.

Alas, I don't see it coming. Think that after the upcoming Grimoire patch (and subsequent small tweaks) we won't see all this attention on SCH anymore =/

There are gear caps of +100 and -50 enmity.

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Enmity
(contains links to kaeko's journal also)

Straight plus and minus enmity really aren't that useful. Almost no job in the game would have a problem capping enmity. The + from Animus would help them do it faster, but the best tanks in the game alreay do thy quickly as it is. Straight -minus doesn't help at all once you hit the the cap and it already pretty easy to reach the -enmity gear cap for healing jobs. I always thought the concept for thes spells was to help SCH manipulate the flow of battle. You can't do that with these spells.

Something needs to be done with them because there is no reason to use them.

Thanks.
Guess it has already been tested that neither of the Animus spells can exceed the enmity caps, right?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zhronne

Thanks.
Guess it has already been tested that neither of the Animus spells can exceed the enmity caps, right?

---

I thought i remembered reading somewhere that that is the case, but I can't seem to find it anymore, so it would need to be re-checked.

Tranquil heart and the merit stratagems break the cap (but they are multiplicative instead of additive.)

You mean the group2 merit stratagem that consumes 2 charges? (and that doesn't stack with Animus -.-)
Yes I supposed so because I was using it generating almost no enmity at all, so I pretty much assumed that :)

Same here and I'm at work so I can't look for it. I should have waited and looked that up before I responded so as not to talk out of my backside :)

I'll check when I get home.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Economizer

Regen spells could use a casting time reduction in general,

---

This. I came to reply specifically to this, and I'm glad to see someone else feels the same way. I've talked about this before with friends of mine in game as well and we all agreed that it was too inefficient to use Regen spells because of their long cast time.

For example, I suppose the theory behind Regen spells is that they're used to complement the main cures. However, if your tank or whatever is taking damage, he usually needs a cure right now, so you use basic cure spells. You usually top off their HP and at that point, so there's no reason to use a Regen spell because his HP is full, and higher tier Regen spells last such a short time that if the HP is topped off, the extra HP from Regen may never have been any use since the target never took damage during the window Regen was up.

Basically, I think it should be looked at like this:
Regen: Slow HP recovery, so faster cast time.
Cures: Instant HP Recovery, slower cast time (In comparison to Regen).

This way, Regen spells can be something you can toss up in between cure spells, which would be awesome.

However...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Economizer

Light Arts isn't going to make it MP efficient for White Mages unless White Mages are getting the full buffs Scholars are and it doubles the effect or duration.

---

If I'm not mistaken, I think they've said in a previous post that these changes to Light/Dark arts would only effect SCH main. And I don't think WHM benefiting from this is supposed to be the point, either. SE has said that instead of giving us Cure V, this is supposed to be SCH's "healing fix", or something. I'm not entirely sure though, so it would be great if Camate or another rep could give us details on this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Economizer

Adloquium could use a boost with Light Arts or skill.

---

This too. 1 TP a tick is waaaay too little and not worth my 40 MP (Light Arts) and 5 seconds of wasted cast time. Not only is it 1 TP a tick, it's only 60 TP for it's full duration (Or 150 with Perpetuance and +2 hands over 7.5 mins). 60 TP isn't even a single WS, and it's over the course of 3 minutes. That doesn't sound silly to the dev team? I pretty much use the spell as a joke:

Quote:

---

Me: Here ya go, Regain!
NIN: Yay~!
Me: You'll have 150 TP in 7.5 mins. Enjoy.
NIN: :(

---

Another way to look at it is 5 TP a tick would be 1 extra WS per minute (100 TP per minute). Now THIS may be too much, maybe, but keep in mind that when I'm on DRK (Or any melee) I kinda get 100 TP every 25 seconds anyways so... I dunno.

Overall:
1/tick is 20 TP per minute, 60 per cast.
2/tick is 40 TP per minute, 120 per cast.
3/tick is 60 TP per minute, 180 per cast.
4/tick is 80 TP per minute, 240 per cast.
5/tick is 100 TP per minute, 300 per cast.

I'd say the perfect balance is 3/tick. I think a lot of us SCHs were hoping the Regain spell would make us desired in groups similar to how Refresh made RDM desired. 1 TP a tick doesn't do this, so please reconsider the workings of this spell.

To fix Adloquium there are several ways:

1. Release new gear with "enhances adloquium" stat
2. Make so Rapture doesn't just empower your next Curing spell, but your next buff as well (this would be beyond a fix for Adloquium though)
3. Make so Adloquium scales with your Enhancing magic skill, going up to 3 tp/tic past 400 enha (just like Embrava is 5tp/tic after 400)

My personal opinion about these options:
1) Oh god another inventory +1, please no!
2) This solution has a lot of potential, also because it could fix other spells as well, but if it starts working on everything it might become too powerful (Stoneskin, Phalanx, Shell...), and in all honesty I'm not really fond to have yet another stratagem to waste, I already don't have enough!
3) I think this is the easier solution and the one I like most


They should deploy some sort of fix to Animus spell as well. Those had so much potential, yet they're so useless atm...
I think someone suggested changing them into "%" instead of fixed values. That might be too complicated for them, but something they could easily do is using solution 3), i.e. making them scale with your enhancing skill AND making so those values go BEYOND the respective +enmity and -enmity caps. That way it would be a situational but welcome spell even for people who already dedicated time and effort into building +enm/-enm sets.
Or they could change it completely to work similarly to another effect which is already coded inside the game: Foe Sirvente.
Haven't read tests done on this spell and I have no clue if it's any good or not (don't have it on my BRD), but the mechanism behind it sounds more useful than Augeo's +20 enmity.
Basically it supposedly reduces the rate at which you lose Cumulative Enmity.
Think PLDs have a Job Ability which gives them a similar effect.
Also, since there is such an effect already coded in the game, giving it to Animus Augeo would be easy.
Just like it would be easy to create an opposite effect (cumulative enmity degrades faster) for Animus Minuo.
This solution sounds way more efficient (but also more complicated for them to realize, maybe?).
Were they to use the previous option (effect scales with enha skill, stacks beyond caps) I'd consider myself happy already.

Quote:

---

The MP cost and learnable level of Helix spells will be adjusted.
*Planned future adjustments call for the effect duration of these spells to vary by job level, starting at a shorter duration and gradually increasing to its original duration at level 60.

---

Why?

Reserving judgement on most adjustments but some reasoning for this would be nice.

My guessing is that they watn to make all helixes at the same level and under 50 so that /SCH can use them, but their potency will be greatly inferior to that of SCH, which will actually be even more powerful than before if used at level 95+

On one hand it makes me mad (the uniqueness of bringing a SCH to voidwatch and similar places...), on the other hand we get more powerful Helixes so we can't really complain.

Anyone know if they are gonna make "Regen IV" AoE-able now that it's gonna be a SCH mainpoint? Cause seem retarded if they didn't.

Accession doesn't work with Regen IV on WHM/SCH?
I didn't know and I agree at least SCH main should be able to accession it (and Haste as well, imho...)

To play devil's advocate, we don't know if helices will continue to strengthen after lv60. The wording only speaks to the strength of the spell at 60.

And I think it's a pretty poor move to make them subbale *just* so that groups do not need to bring a SCH to Voidwatch. But if we ultimately get stronger Helices *outside of the Dark Arts bonus* OR tier II helices, then I guess we can't complain. Otherwise they really did just make the change because of VW.

Quote:

---

But if we ultimately get stronger Helices *outside of the Dark Arts bonus* OR tier II helices, then I guess we can't complain.

---

Well there is still some minor cause for discontent, as stronger helixes don't really matter if they're actively giving a reason to not bring a sch at all.

Also, they didn't say the dark/light arts changes were main only, so what exactly is a subbed helix going to be like?

All helix are subbable on the test server (with Anemohelix being lvl32 at the highest). Seems like its utility in Voidwatch just got thrown off the cliff.

/sigh :(
Hope we'll receive a compensation good enough to make us forget that... Will be harder to get a slot in VW now, tbh it wasn't that easy before either, at least judging from my experience.

Well, SCH's regen capabilities are through the roof now. 46hp/tic off Regen IV, lasts 150 seconds.

Light Arts bonus on regen is main job only also.

Complete and utter bullshit.

Lowering the level of Helices makes absolutely no sense bar practically screwing Scholar out of Voidwatch.

Seriously, I'd love to hear the logic behind this. The only possible benefit is a lower MP cost and lower cast time - and they failed to mention cast time while specifically mentioning MP, which isn't all that great considering their MP cost is already negligible - there is no reason to lower the level for Helix II, you learn Stone IV one level after Thunder III, we could learn Geohelix II at level 85 - ten levels after Luminohelix - and then the next every two levels like previous Helices and that would have been perfectly fine. Making their duration based off level certainly doesn't require them dropping 33 levels. In fact, basing duration off level is a poor boost anyway. Do like I said for a change and make it based off Elemental skill (since the duration of Kaustra is based off Dark skill), you could even cut out that "Dark Arts enhancing the duration of Helices" since Dark Arts gives an extra couple ranks in Elemental skill as it is. Don't do that now though, though that's actually what probably will happen. Go for it SE, give Black Mage more powerful Helices than Scholar, it's OK, we can use an ability (just to cut from the ranting, what is the recast on Modus now? Duration of Klimaform, too) with a 90% miss rate - thought they probably ninja edited its accuracy without admitting how horribly broken it is/was - that either does nothing but speed up DoT or has a rather minor damage increase should anyone still have it merited.

inb4 "Scholars' getting lots of attention compared to jobs that are practically near perfect as is". Granted Red Mage should get substantially more attention than Scholar; I'd have high hopes for the enfeebling adjustment that's planned but SE have gone back to proving incompetents at every turn.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaisha

Well, SCH's regen capabilities are through the roof now. 47hp/tic off Regen IV, lasts 150 seconds.

Light Arts bonus on regen is main job only also.

---

All of that WITHOUT Tabula Rasa active? (because there's a bonus from Tabula Rasa as well).
Did you check if Savant's Head+2 affects Regen IV somehow?
It gives different bonuses to Regen I, II and III

I haven't tried a Helix spell with SCH subbed, but if Regens are any indication, /SCH will have a weaker Helix spell by default and perhaps a harder time landing them with shorter duration Klimaforms.

Did some quick tests with Regens, here's what I found out:

• Regen IV is already available at level 90 (maybe earlier too?)
• The amount of bonus Light Arts provide seems to be fixed and not related to some other stats (like enhancing skill etc). At 90 my Regen IV was healing just as much as at 95 (??? see below)
• Savant's Bonnet +2 works, and provides +4 bonus just like expected, following the pattern of +1 for Regen I, +2 for Regen II and +3 for Regen III
• Regen IV was giving 46 hp/tic (without bonnet), Regen III was providing 39 hp/tic (think this was with bonnet, so real value should be 36). Regen IV without Light Arts was providing the basic value of 30 hp/tic
• Lenght seemed to be 160 seconds to me? Whatever it is, it lasts a lot. Packed with Accession and Perpetuance this is getting really nice.
• I admit I just eyeballed stuff but I didn't notice a "faster casting time" for regen spells

Since Kaisha got 47 mp/tic instead of my 46, I suppose I was wrong above with saying that there is no stat influencing it.
Either the stat is not enhancing skill but something else (MND? Sounds strange to me...) or the enhancing magic tiers for Regen are really large, because as I mentioned I couldn't see any difference between level 95 and 90, that's at least 30 Enhancing skill difference.
The gear I used for this test is: Full Empyreal Armor +2, WoE +2 staff, Bugard Strap +1, Incantor's Stone, Twilight Cape, Savant's Neck, Argute Belt, Omega Ring, Refresh/MP+25 WotG Earring, and I don't remember ear 2/ring 2 but they had irrelevant stats.
I have no enhancing magic merits either.

I mentioned 2 hypothesys above:
1) there is a stat affecting Regen but it's not enha skill
2) enha skill affects it but it has wide tiers
I'd like to add a third:
3) Kaisha made a typo, wrote 47 but meant 46.

I edited that post an hour ago. It was 46hp, I just forgot I had /WHM on at the time. With +2 hat you get 50hp/tic.


Regen IV is lvl79 for SCH.


Something has an effect on the regen potency though, as lvl18 for Regen1 with Light Arts up has zero bonus. Could just be strictly level related though as SE mentioned is the case for the helix series.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zhronne

Accession doesn't work with Regen IV on WHM/SCH?
I didn't know and I agree at least SCH main should be able to accession it (and Haste as well, imho...)

---

Regen yes, Haste NO.

Waiting to read news on Helix Spells, Modus Veritas (3 mins recast? Same shitty accuracy?) and Klimaform. Also waiting to see how Tabula Rasa further enhances Helixes and Regen.

In theory we shouldn't see the duration buff/nerf for Helixes, since it's mentioned they're gonna put it at a later time, but just the increased potency and duration.
Can someone check if ticks still happen every ~9 seconds like they used to? I suck with these things, need someone better than me to have a more reliable measurement.

Klimaform lasts 3min vs. the old 1min. I'll actually bother using the thing now. Shame you can't use perpetuance with it. ;/

Helix ticks are same as usual. I'm currently looking for a higher-lvl mob to see what the new duration is though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaisha

Regen IV is lvl79 for SCH.

---

Can you check how much it regens at level 79 and level 80? If it is level-dependant and nothing else I guess the buffs might happen in tiers too (like... every 5 levels?) and not every level.
Sounds like your level hypothesys is likely anyway.

Quote:

---

Could just be strictly level related though as SE mentioned is the case for the helix series.

---

I *THINK* SE said they're gonna do the level thing for Helix sometime in the future, but it's not currently developed.
They wrote:

"*Planned future adjustments call for the effect duration of these spells to vary by job level, starting at a shorter duration and gradually increasing to its original duration at level 60."

Sounds to me that atm on test server the duration is still the same.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

Regen yes, Haste NO.

---

Why? I mean I fully agree in Haste not being accessionable with /SCH, but imho SCH main should be able to, why not?
From next level cap we're gonna get haste from /RDM, would be a nice SCH-only thing to be able to accession Haste. Why are you against it?
And that Regen IV not being accessionable is so bullshit.
Did they mention that in official patch notes (like haste, refresh II etc) or is it something "unintentional"?
I see no reason not to make it accessionable, even for WHM.
Can anybody test if it works on test servers atm?

No spell Scholar cannot access via main or sub is accessionable, nor is haste/reraise/ probably something else I can't remember.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaisha

Klimaform lasts 3min vs. the old 1min. I'll actually bother using the thing now. Shame you can't use perpetuance with it. ;/

---

Wow... means you can fulltime it.
Previously I used to go with Alacrity+Klimaform to reduce the recast.
A bit off-topic, but anybody did thoroughful tests on Savant's Loafers+2 and Klimaform?
Do you need to have them equipped when you finish casting the spell, or can you swap into them whenever the buff is active to receive the bonus?
If it's the first (as I think), do you lose the bonus if you unequip them?


Waiting to see how mighty Regen will be under Tabula Rasa. Let's suppose 2x Time 2x Potency: 100 hp for ~400 seconds (perpetuance) and that stacks with Embrava's ~50 hp.
Whoa... 150hp regen, that's hot lol xD (wow... I just unwillingly made a genious word-joke with that "HoT" there xD)
What can I say... I'm really happy so far.
Bit sad about the long casting time, but hopefully at 99 we'll get another fast cast trait for Grimoire, can also use Siegel Sash etc.

This totally does NOT fix the issue of missing a stronger single target heal (be it C5 or C4+ or whatever else) and so, all in all, it doesn't fixes the issues SCH is currently experiencing while trying to be a healer. But nonetheless it's a welcome and nice buff which can only make things better compared to now.
There's still hope that they're gonna add some more bits here and there before they release this update anyway :)

First post, and I didn't read the entire thread and I'm certain its been said more than once, but I just wanted to take this time to thank SE for their brilliant work in making SCH useless for yet another event, Voidwatch. Really SE? Good job.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zhronne

Why? I mean I fully agree in Haste not being accessionable with /SCH, but imho SCH main should be able to, why not?
From next level cap we're gonna get haste from /RDM, would be a nice SCH-only thing to be able to accession Haste. Why are you against it?
And that Regen IV not being accessionable is so bullshit.
Did they mention that in official patch notes (like haste, refresh II etc) or is it something "unintentional"?
I see no reason not to make it accessionable, even for WHM.
Can anybody test if it works on test servers atm?

---

The point being Haste is not even learned by SCH, Why should they be the best at using it.

I'd be fine with it being Accessionable if WHM got Hastega, but since they're not it should just stick to being a nice SMN AoE buff only.

---

Regen IV was blocked because originally it was WHM only, the general rule is if SCH can't learn it or /subjob it then it's not accession-able, the only exception to the rule I know of is Haste.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

No spell Scholar cannot access via main or sub is accessionable, nor is haste/reraise/ probably something else I can't remember.

---

It's 4:30 AM so my brain is probably not computing something out of your sentence but what do you really mean?
That only spells that SCH gets on its own (without sub involved) can be accessionable?
That's wrong, think about Refresh, you can accession that if I recall and you get it through subjob. Think about Stoneskin, long time ago SCH didn't have it but you could still accession it, same for Phalanx (/RDM), or other spikes spells or en-spells etc.

So, supposing I really got what you meant, you're wrong.
If I missed your point sorry, I blame the late hour!

lvl79 - Regen4 - 42hp/tic naked
lvl80 - Regen4 - 44hp/tic naked



Also, something I posted over on BG -

Quote:

---

244dmg Cryohelix on an EP eye in Beau[S] w/ Ice weather, Hailstorm, Aquillo's, Ice Obi, Twilight Cape, Klimaform, +2 hat w/ Ebullience and other standard crap. Lasted 130 seconds, took roughly 75% HP away from full.

No idea how that compares to the old helix since I rarely used the damn thing on SCH thanks to its MP cost vs. modern day mobs dying too fast for DoT to matter outside of VW.

For 26mp with the adjustments I'm not complaining though. Best dmg-to-MP ratio in the game now.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

The point being Haste is not even learned by SCH, Why should they be the best at using it.

---

Because SCH currently suffer during Light Arts compared to other healers. Well not much compared to RDM maybe (who already have enhanced lasting time for their buffs, thanks to AF3+2, without wasting Perpetuance charges like SCH have to), but definitely compared to WHM.
If they really decide not to give us a new single target healing spell, they could at least give more unique things.
After all "Accession" is a SCH trademark, making it "more powerful" when used on main job (i.e. making it work on spells that wouldn't normally work when /SCH) doesn't seem so wrong to me, does it?
Hope I managed to show what I really meant.

In all honesty it wouldn't be gamebreaking and it wouldn't even make SCH particularly desirable, it would just be a "little bit", but together with many other "little bits" (like the regen stuff etc) it could provide the right amount of "unique" stuff SCH need to stand on its own.


@Kaisha
130 seconds... that's more than 2x the time it used to last before? Impressive. Wonder in change they "nerfed" the formula that calculates the damage of the tics based on the initial damage. Hope that's not the case.
Also the new mp cost... is insane in terms of efficiency.
With such a long last time 5/5 modus veritas in group #1 becomes a powerful instrument. Altough considering its 99,99999% resist rate on NMs I may have been too optimistic :P
Any word on the tics? Still same unique timings as they were before? (round 9 secs if I recall)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zhronne

It's 4:30 AM so my brain is probably not computing something out of your sentence but what do you really mean?
That only spells that SCH gets on its own (without sub involved) can be accessionable?
That's wrong, think about Refresh, you can accession that if I recall and you get it through subjob. Think about Stoneskin, long time ago SCH didn't have it but you could still accession it, same for Phalanx (/RDM), or other spikes spells or en-spells etc.

So, supposing I really got what you meant, you're wrong.
If I missed your point sorry, I blame the late hour!

---

Yes, you weren't reading it right. If its a spell Sch main could use, it was accensionable. If it's a spell Sch main could use via subjob, it was accensionable. Bar haste/reraise/w/e else I forgot no other spell was.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

Yes, you weren't reading it right. If its a spell Sch main could use, it was accensionable. If it's a spell Sch main could use via subjob, it was accensionable. Bar haste/reraise/w/e else I forgot no other spell was.

---

Now this may sound as I'm trying to play dumb to troll you or something but I'm not, I just AM that dumb :D
I still don't get the point of what you wanted to say.
Yes, Haste is one of the exceptions, one of those spells that are not accessionable (no matter if you're SCH or /SCH) and it was said in official patch notes.
It's indeed that way.
I was just saying that while I agree with this policy for /SCH, I wish they would change it for SCH, making so a SCH main can accession Haste, whereas /SCH still cannot.