Hvergelmir WTF SE

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Prove that it's wrong then.

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You were there when I did YEARS AGO and I resolved the issue long before Kegsay came along. I don't need to do it again, because I'm the only one here who ever did. It is absolute BG ignorance of SMN to show up defending a formula that makes an AVATAR as strong (not fast, just strong) as a well geared WARRIOR.

I know what Kegsay's fault was, and I've said here, in this thread, to you. The slope is WRONG. Go ahead, take the Bat Galkan single-point approach to back into avatar attack @95. Might want to bring that WAR in here for lulz.

All I read is someone talking out of their rear.

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Originally Posted by Kimble

All I read is someone talking out of their rear.

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If you want to be part of the ignorant Bat Galkan masses that believes avatars are as strong as warriors, no one is stopping you.

What are you talking about? Avatars have low base damage against monsters of similar level (because fSTR -> 0), and fairly high attack. They also likely obey a different pDIF function than melees.

To put it in "melee terms", they're swinging a ~D45 weapon with fairly high delay, fairly high attack, and 0% DA/TA/etc. That's like a level 95 PLD gearing entirely for Attack and using Gluttony Sword. It's freaking laughable. The formulas don't predict it would compare to a Warrior in the least.

Also, why do you keep going on about "oh man, the slope is too steep!!!"? Are you an idiot? You're suggesting "the slope is too steep, so we should lower it and the multiply by a scalar." That's the same thing as having a higher slope to start with.

i always expected that a mage relic or empyrean or whatever weapon would give the wielder access to a spell you'd never get to use otherwise. like ultima or meteor or something. i think that'd fix the stupidness of mage staves, but who knows if it'd ever happen.

Or maybe at least find a way to make them worthwhile for casting, it looks like they tried that with the blm mythic by giving it a lot of MAB, but unfortunately it just doesn't compare to the elemental potency from the ele staves. Mythic did seeem to be designed as something to be used either in between casting or when you can't cast due to a lack of mp or silence, and while the greater damage from it might be a viable way to keep your damage up, in most cases it would likely be a better choice to just use an echo drop or rest your mp up. Not sure what they were thinking of with Hvergelmir, maybe that we would melee and ws to keep our mp up, but aside from that I'm not seeing too much good for it aside from maybe for use when meleeing while solo or in things like campaign. Really one change they should add to at least one of the special staves would be to give it an effect that gives like mayb +10 elemental potency matching day or something similar.

Byrth, if you want to invent some new pdif formula to defend yourself, do it. Otherwise, your "kegsay pdif" is 11/10 = 1.1

Figure out that mob defense and tell us your "Kegsay attack."

He's not inventing anything. Until you come forward with a 100% accurate formula and an explanation, his "invention" is as accurate as anything else we've got.

Sorry Al, but in the midst of Byrth's mindless support of this formula, there's a melee SMN using well established rules that is kicking the absolute SNOT out of avatar melee. There are no make-believe rules for melee SMN damage. Byrth's delusions are constrained by well known formulas and results.

If Byrth can't extend Kegsay's work to L95, the formula dies with the bat-suit.

Still waiting for you to come forward with this 100% accurate formula and well established rules. Until you do, you're talking out your behind more than he is.

You NEVER present actual data or evidence, you always attack the person, a fallicious method of argument.

Al, do you really think you've earned any new rights to demand data from me since wiki? I've been cleaning up your mess for years.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Still waiting for you to come forward with this 100% accurate formula and well established rules. Until you do, you're talking out your behind more than he is.

You NEVER present actual data or evidence, you always attack the person, a fallicious method of argument.

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Because he can't AL, he has nothing but that approach, and even in that method he fails.

Dallas is just a troll. Its pretty pointless to ask him to actually back up what he says because he has no proof.

All you can do is make sure to let it be known hes wrong and not worth listening to, so other players dont get false information and get lead down the wrong path.

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Originally Posted by Kimble

Dallas is just a troll. Its pretty pointless to ask him to actually back up what he says because he has no proof.

All you can do is make sure to let it be known hes wrong and not worth listening to, so other players dont get false information and get lead down the wrong path.

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At this point, after he's ruined so many threads with his tripe, anyone who listens to a word he says deserves what comes to them. He is a massive troll, and it's simply not worth responding to him at all.

Sorry, I kind of forgot about this where this thread was headed.

I don't feel obligated to establish formulas that govern avatar melee. It would be interesting if someone did it, and I'd probably read it, but it's a lot of work for a pretty minimal reward considering how little we can affect it and how small its contribution to damage is. The real interesting reason to work on this has nothing at all to do with Avatars. The reason to work on this is that the same equations probably govern monster -> player damage dealt, so by learning about them we could finally answer the question of "How much defense is X% PDT worth?"

As far as avatars are concerned, most important parts (shown mostly by Kegsay) are:
* A large fraction of Avatar's base damage come from fSTR, which is uncapped.
* Avatars likely have high attack.

If you want to prove them to yourself, repeat the test that I did.

If you want to prove Byrth wrong, you fight a dozen things and try to draw a straight line. I did it years ago, and have moved on to the better things. There's no chance in hell I'm pretending you are an authority on SMN. Your source came to me, so lol@u.

Really, what sort of rancid site is Bat Galkan HQ now where a single data point (lolbyrth) or excel spreadsheet (lolgg) is proof? I've seen anecdotal evidence from Al that's more informed than either of you, and that's pathetic.

This popcorn is delicious. Mmmmmm....

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

This popcorn is delicious. Mmmmmm....

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It sure is, glad I bought the extra large or I think I'd have run out before now.

Oh well, good luck Elementa. At least you're not on my server. It wouldn't even really matter if you were, because Summoner is essentially incapable of affecting its own damage output beyond AF3+2 body and BP delay gear, both of which I'm sure you already use. So you might be a bad player, but it's hard for even a bad player to be a bad summoner.

I dunno Byrth... low summoning magic means horrible MP management. Out side abyssea, it means more smn on their knees or not using blood pacts every 5 minutes. Inside abyssea.... who still cares about what goes on in abyssea?

I once SMN regards to peanut butter outside at fishing warm clothes and Odin 9999 dmg at dusk. That's about how much sense everyone in here is making to me. The moral of the story: Melee lifers don't bother clicking on threads relating to mage stuff. If you see a SMN agent you do what I do, you run. You run your ass off.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

It wouldn't even really matter if you were, because Summoner is essentially incapable of affecting its own damage output beyond AF3+2 body and BP delay gear

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And yet with the staff titled in this thread, people are doing twice the damage of the best SMN you have ever seen. The stupidest thing Bat Galkans ever did was run off Al. If you had even an ounce of knowledge what Claustrum was capable of, this thread could have been yours.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

And yet with the staff titled in this thread, people are doing twice the damage of the best SMN you have ever seen. The stupidest thing Bat Galkans ever did was run off Al. If you had even an ounce of knowledge what Claustrum was capable of, this thread could have been yours.

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Poor Dallas no matter how hard you try you just can't seem to find anyone who cares about how fast you can kill {Easy prey}, can you?

*yawn* the popcorn is running out... When's dallas going to say something interesting? All this "I'm great and all these unnamed people doing this unnamed stuff I won't specify are great" is starting to get boring.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

*yawn* the popcorn is running out... When's dallas going to say something interesting? All this "I'm great and all these unnamed people doing this unnamed stuff are great" is starting to get boring.

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Probably nothing substantial until someone takes the time to go dig up his "personal work" (I mean, we all know he's Elementa/Craftermath) and shoot it down. It's a fairly common trend of his. He claims to have done all the math and testing years ago and doesn't feel the need to bother explaining himself because "We can find it if we want to", despite him posting "anonymously", lulz.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Probably nothing substantial until someone takes the time to go dig up his "personal work" (I mean, we all know he's Elementa/Craftermath) and shoot it down. It's a fairly common trend of his. He claims to have done all the math and testing years ago and doesn't feel the need to bother explaining himself because "We can find it if we want to", despite him posting "anonymously", lulz.

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I miss his crazy claims:( we need them back. Quick Dallas come tell us Hvergelmir SMN can out damage an Ukon WAR.

I dunno. After that "I have common sense. I melee in dynamis, but not voidwatch" (not exact quote) came out, it's clear that there was a huge misunderstanding in his over inflated and exaggerated sense of melee smn or gtfo mentality and those of us who were trying to be rational about the utility of a melee smn.

The thread was doomed to fail the moment the Bat Galkans arrived. We've seen their collective work... One mob. They will blindly attack work they don't know exists, but you can bank on them never attacking a second mob EVER.

More like the only content in the game that is challenging enough that you can't duo it with WHM MNK

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Originally Posted by Dallas

The thread was doomed to fail the moment the Bat Galkans arrived. We've seen their collective work... One mob. They will blindly attack work they don't know exists, but you can bank on them never attacking a second mob EVER.

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Dallas, please go back to the crazy claims, made up figures and and dumb insults. Please we miss that, you are no longer entertaining, it's sad. Either that or you know, go away.