Retainer upgrades, Market improvements, and World Market instead of AH

[Fieros]

The following proposals are meant to address storage concerns, buying/ selling issues, market stands and search tool useability, and the disconnect/ neglect of Limsa Lominsa/ Gridania market wards. I would like to thank Rentahamster, Origamikitsune, and Amineri specifically for their ideas that inspired me regarding these matters.

Easy to Understand- click me! (diagram summarizing main points)

Retainers
Several upgrades are now purchasable for each retainer in your service. The level of retainers increases with each additional option package as shown:

LVL - Cost (gil) ; Benefit
1 - Free ; standard
2 - (250,000) ; additional storage (25 slots)
3 - (100,000) ; ability to set a comment for shoppers, (5) additional bazaar slots, (8) slots for customizing appearance with equipable gear seperate from bazaar slots if desired, Transaction history displayed for personal retainers and running sale price given when searching for items in each city or on the World Market
4 - (150,000) ; World Market License
5 - (500,000) ; retainer storage shared among characters on same account and same server

I'd say add retainer level = quest, which gives you access to the ability to purchase. Quests = content, which this game needs. I'd even be happy if they were as involved and pricey as the 11 gobby bag quests, since the game also needs gil sinks.

Some additional suggestions I have regarding possible abilities for retainers:
a) Linkpearl to allow talking to retainer. At first allows only viewing of items still in retainer bazaar.
b) Later, allow moving of items between retainer inventory and bazaar via linkpearl.
c) Still later, allow direction of retainer to a specific Market Area without having to "hold their hand".

Market Wards
Changes to the search tool include:

*Optional HQ filter returning 5 cheapest of each quality
*Gear listed on retainers in wards requesting repairs now searchable by Disciple of Hand class
*Ability to select a single retainer to mark and automatically transport to appropriate ward after confirmation. (AoE toggle button switches between single and multiple selection)

Ex: You are in Ul'dah and want to buy 20 Willow Logs to cut into lumber and grind up your carpentry by pumping out 80 masks. You first check the World Market and find the cheapest listing is for 2000gil each. Coincidentally, the retainer selling those logs is located in Ul'dah (since selling logs on the World Market from Gridania would impose an additional tax the player would likely chose to set up shop in Ul'dah or Limsa Lominsa) and to avoid paying the convienence fee associated with using the instant delivery World Market, you instead use the existing item search. Since you already know which retainer you want to purchase from, you mark only that specific retainer and travel directly to the appropriate Ward.

Changes to Stands in market wards:

*Renting a stand now allows your retainer to buy and sell on the World Market
*Rentals last for (48) hours
*Renting a stand requires that your retainer is Level 4+ (has World Market License)

Also suggest:
a) Ability to search for items that retainers are requesting to purchase.
b) More stall customization, please !

World Market (instead of Auction House)
Market stands of all cities are connected by the World Market.

*When listing items for sale on the World Market there will be a (10%) additional tax penatly if the market stand is rented in a city containing the corresponding guild

Ex: shards = Alchemist guild = extra tax selling on World Market from Ul'dah
Ex: Sheepskin = Leatherworker guild = extra tax selling on World Market from Gridania

*When selling items on the World Market not represented by a city guild, no additional tax is required

Ex: shards = Alchemist guild = No extra tax on World Market from Limsa Lomina or Gridania

*Browsing the World Market is now available by interacting with NPC located in each city
*Players may claim purchased items (immediately) at (120% listed cost, extra 20% covering shipping and handling)

*Players may search through a comprehensive item list on the World Market and select an item(s) they wish for their level 4+ retainer to actively seek purchase at specified gil reward. Searching of such requests would be permitted through use of the same desk-bound NPC. These requests each occupy one slot of the retainer's available bazaar.

Ex: You want to buy a +1 Iron Saw for 95,000 gil. The only one for sale in Ul'dah is posted at 250,000gil. You rent a market stand and set your retainer to seek purchase of a +1 Iron Saw for 95,000 gil. Two days later someone searching purchase orders sees your request and grabs their +1 Iron Saw that hasn't sold off their retainer. They fill your purchase order and recieve 95,000 gil. The saw is waiting for you on your retainer.

*No requirement exists for players wishing to use this NPC for browsing/purchasing or filling a purchase order.

Ex: You are new to the game and just starting to work up your gathering skills. You can't yet afford to sell on the World Market, but you see that someone across the world is selling a Willow Fishing Rod for half the cost of the ones in Ul'dah. You make the purchase and head out to do some fishing.

Finally, I appreciate your time spent considering these alterations to the existing Retainer/ Market Ward systems, and the integration of a new World Market to add depth and unity to an already wonderful economy in Eorzea.

Another thread by Amineri can be seen here regarding an AH which contains some very rational and well-thought ideas to consider.

This idea was originally posted in general discussion.

[origamikitsune]

Ami's thread has been re-posted as well: On the re-arranged forums here.

[Amineri]

Fieros,

I'll say again that I very much like the ideas presented here. That said, I'm not sure that I agree with every single suggestion, so here is my $0.02

Retainers
I'm a bit torn about the mechanism to unlock these retainer abilities. In part this is motivated by the lack of good in-game gil sinks, and in part by an aversion to eventually seeing every player have all abilities on all retainers. Just as the 'ability slot' system limits (to a certain degree) the number of abilities a character can have equipped at one time, it seems to me that there should be some negatives to having all of these abilities.

To that end, I would suggest that the quests that origamikitsune suggested be there to unlock the retainer abilities. The quests unlock the ability to purchase retainer licenses that grant the specific ability for a specific time. This makes the retainer abilities an a la carte feature, rather than a package deal. This clearly wouldn't work for some of the abilities, such as increased storage or bazaar space, so these would have to remain permanent upgrades.

Regarding increased storage, I concede that increased storage is necessary, and currently increasing retainer storage space seems like the only choice. Personally, I hope that some form of player housing is eventually added, and that more 'permanent' storage space is made available there (I know it's a dream...).

I'm going to pound my drum again regarding the ability to acquire linkpearls to talk to your retainer (they could go into the NPC Linkpearls menu). A retainer linkpearl could let you:
a) At first allows only viewing of items still in retainer bazaar.
b) Later, allow moving of items between retainer inventory and bazaar via linkpearl.
c) Still later, allow direction of retainer to a specific Market Area without having to "hold their hand".
I just realized that allowing a retainer to travel to a distant market area allows "instantaneous goods travel". Recall retainer at bell. Put item on retainer. Send retainer to distant city. Remote person buys item. Recall retainer at bell. Repeat.
To address this, I'd suggest putting a 15 minute delay from the time that the retainer is sent, to the time that the retainer arrives. It still gets the retainer there, without having to run, but cuts down on the rate of "instant travel goods".

Market Wards
Agree on these wholeheartedly!:
a) Ability to search for items based upon HQ level
b) Ability to search for requested repairs
c) Ability to transport directly to ward of retainer selected from search function
d) Stall changes are necessary, given your proposed World Market concept

Also suggest:
a) Ability to search for items that retainers are requesting to purchase.
b) More stall customization, please !

World Market
This is the topic that troubles me the most, I suppose.

Browsing the World Market is now available by interacting with NPC located in each city
*Players may claim purchased items (immediately) at (no cost)

Currently there is no other function in the game that allows for immediate transportation of goods. There isn't even a mail system, yet. The immediate transportation of goods has repercussions that I feel aren't always well understood, but I'll leave that rant for another time ^_^.

To a certain degree this idea seems attractive, but at the same time it makes me uneasy. As I try to think through the likely outcome of a system, I can see the world market ultimately destroying the current retainer/market system. The incredible gain in convenience of the world market would be in direct competition with the current market system. If more people begin using the world market, the ability to sell through the regular markets could well diminish to the point of dieing completely.

In this scenario, the only viable course of action becomes selling via the world market, resulting in the de facto requirement of getting a retainer with the ability to sell on the world market, and acquiring a stall in order to do so. Given the limited number of stalls, only a limited number of people could even participate in the world market, leaving those people with no effective method to buy and sell.

I'm not sure that this would come to pass, but I worry that it would, and that makes me uneasy.

Finally, thank you for your kind words regarding other auction house options (I view it as only one option among many, yes). I've moved the main thread here, following the forum reorg.

[origamikitsune]

@Ami & Fieros here's a question for you. Can either of you think of a way to maintain the local economies of the three cities once Ishgard opens up? Short of there NOT being a method at all for selling/buying in the city (and that means disabling player bazaars as well) it will become the economic center of the world. As people level up, they will migrate. It happened in 11 with Juno and then White Gate. If SE cannot maintain the importance of the smaller local economies, then the best thing to do is to allow one unified global economy.

Both of you have great ideas, and in many respects your ideas compliment each other greatly. But I am curious, how would you're guys' ideas transition into the new city opening and the eventual exodus there? Just something to think about.

[Fieros]

I'm going to pound my drum again regarding the ability to acquire linkpearls to talk to your retainer (they could go into the NPC Linkpearls menu). A retainer linkpearl could let you:
a) At first allows only viewing of items still in retainer bazaar.
b) Later, allow moving of items between retainer inventory and bazaar via linkpearl.
c) Still later, allow direction of retainer to a specific Market Area without having to "hold their hand".

I'm still in agreement that these are great ideas.

Also suggest:
a) Ability to search for items that retainers are requesting to purchase.
b) More stall customization, please !

More good suggestions in my book. An example for "a" was added when I updated the OP to new forum.

Ex: You want to buy a +1 Iron Saw for 95,000 gil. The only one for sale in Ul'dah is posted at 250,000gil. You rent a market stand and set your retainer to seek purchase of a +1 Iron Saw for 95,000 gil. Two days later someone searching purchase orders sees your request and grabs their +1 Iron Saw that hasn't sold off their retainer. They fill your purchase order and recieve 95,000 gil. The saw is waiting for you on your retainer.

As for "b", yes! Kinda follows the same reasoning as allowing more retainer customization. More than three stand types would be nice. Not necessarily NEW designs, but simply adding the other NPC stand types already displayed around the cities would be great. Currently, renting a market stall gives no benefit since buyers look for goods using the search tool as opposed to the old grazing method. In the old system renting a stall would give help you stand out from the crowd, but this benefit has vanished. My thinking revolved around restoring the original benefit by helping your retainer gain increased exposure, world-wide.

World Market
This is the topic that troubles me the most, I suppose.

Currently there is no other function in the game that allows for immediate transportation of goods. There isn't even a mail system, yet. The immediate transportation of goods has repercussions that I feel aren't always well understood, but I'll leave that rant for another time ^_^.

Definately agree, I left those factors in parenthesis hoping for discussion since I saw both positive and negatives. I settled on immediate delivery at no cost figuring it would be the least annoying and didn't want one bad assumption on my part of what the majority of players want to keep people from considering the other aspects of my suggestions. I wouldn't mind having to travel to pick up the goods I puchased, but only if new travel options were implemented (airships, chocobos).

As I try to think through the likely outcome of a system, I can see the world market ultimately destroying the current retainer/market system. The incredible gain in convenience of the world market would be in direct competition with the current market system. If more people begin using the world market, the ability to sell through the regular markets could well diminish to the point of dieing completely.

I have no intention of destroying the local city markets. If you check my diagram on the right side under Market Stands, the third point states "Allows trading on the World Market in addition to local city". My goal was to give sellers incentive to renting stalls around the world based on what they were selling. I figured if they were dealing with high volume or valuable merchandise the proposed tax system would spread them out. Anything they are selling on the World Market would still be available on the local city market as well.

In this scenario, the only viable course of action becomes selling via the world market, resulting in the de facto requirement of getting a retainer with the ability to sell on the world market, and acquiring a stall in order to do so. Given the limited number of stalls, only a limited number of people could even participate in the world market, leaving those people with no effective method to buy and sell.

Theres about 600 available stands in the current world. That doesn't seem too limiting, but there would be fierce competiton for stands in certain wards within certain cities- sure. I think the current system is effective for buying and selling, my proposals are meant to increase that effectiveness and increase utility of underused areas (not used because they currently provide no benefits ie. market stands and LL/Grid wards).

Finally, thank you for your kind words regarding other auction house options (I view it as only one option among many, yes). I've moved the main thread here, following the forum reorg.

Ok, I see that now. I'll update the link. I like many of your ideas and wanted any readers to be well-informed.

Another issue I am awaiting is information on the Grand Companies as they could very well solve some of the problems I was attempting to address.

[Amineri]

@Ami & Fieros here's a question for you. Can either of you think of a way to maintain the local economies of the three cities once Ishgard opens up? Short of there NOT being a method at all for selling/buying in the city (and that means disabling player bazaars as well) it will become the economic center of the world. As people level up, they will migrate. It happened in 11 with Juno and then White Gate. If SE cannot maintain the importance of the smaller local economies, then the best thing to do is to allow one unified global economy.

Keep in mind that, while I have played my share of MMOs, FFXI wasn't one of them (*flame on*). Maybe my opinion will be valuable for the non-FFXI perspective, and others can fill in with a FFXI-informed perspective.

1) If airships are added, the distance between cities becomes normalized. The current dynamic of Ul'dah being favored because it is in the center of the linear path becomes diminished. Hopefully this will reduce the 'over-centralization' of a single city like Ishgard.

2) The locations of the crafting guilds in various cities (and presumably NOT Ishgard) promotes crafting of the appropriate types within the correct cities. I suspect that as time goes by, more of the more advanced recipes (darksteel, anyone?) will require tier 3 facilities, thus requiring crafting within the appropriate city. This effectively creates more demand for certain products within those cities.

If retainers could more easily be placed within the market area of your city of choice WITHOUT the need to travel there (see previous suggestion for NPC linkshells for retainers), supply could be made to more easily match demand.

3) There are high-level areas all four 'citified' zone. Coerthas stands out simply because it is missing the lower level content (monsters starting around rank 20ish), and gathering nodes of only grade 4 and 5. Heck, there are rank 65 sundrakes practically within walking distance of Ul'dah. Hopefully these high level areas will have high-rank content to go with them, and so this content will be well distributed throughout the continent.

4) Grand Companies will be present in at least the three cities of Gridania, Limsa Lominsa and Ul'dah (listed in order of my personal preference ^_^), but may not be present in Ishgard. Perhaps some other mechanic will take place here, since there seems to be a more 'warlike' vibe to Ishgard, as well as the small keeps surrounding it. Activity around the Grand Companies will draw people to various cities, thus upping demand in those cities.

5) Beastman tribes are present in the three principal city-state areas, but not in Coerthas. Once Beastman-related activities begin, there should be more draw to these cities, and again increased demand for goods.

***********************************************

In summary, I see two tactics to maintain market activities in the three principal cities:
1) Specialized materials for crafts practiced in that city (e.g. darksteel ore in Limsa Lominsa, rubies in Ul'dah, pieste skin in Gridania)
2) High rank activities based out of all cities, to maintain active player populations and fuel market demand.

[Amineri]

I have no intention of destroying the local city markets. If you check my diagram on the right side under Market Stands, the third point states "Allows trading on the World Market in addition to local city". My goal was to give sellers incentive to renting stalls around the world based on what they were selling. I figured if they were dealing with high volume or valuable merchandise the proposed tax system would spread them out. Anything they are selling on the World Market would still be available on the local city market as well.

Well do I understand your intention. ^_^ I know a lot the ideas I've had, well ... end up with dire consequences or exploits that I hadn't originally intended. So, I'll poke around at your idea and see if we can't find weaknesses and ways to patch them up. I think that is a good concept, that if well-implemented could obviate the need for a global high-end auction house as I've proposed.

I can get on-board with the thought that items available in the world market stalls are also available via visiting the local market wards.

The question I still ponder is whether the world market stalls can sufficiently supply all of the needs of a server. If so, there is no need for further supply, thus rendering the regular retainers standing around the market wards with nothing to do (I suppose they could comprise the "dollar stores").

Working from 600 market stalls (sounds about right to me), and then assuming each retainer (because of advanced level) can sell 15 types of items, yields 9000 item-selling-slots.

A quick perusal through YG gives the following for items:
weapons : 220
armor : 1553
tools : 121
food : 279
potions : 32
crafting : 1534

So, currently in game, there are around 3739 different items. This means that on the world market, 2 or 3 of each item type could be listed. Going further, supposing that many of these items are spectacularly non-valuable (river sand, anyone?), it is conceivable to list many item types 6 to 8 times or more.

In any event, most any item a player could want could be made available via a world market stall. If pretty much all items are available via this method, and all can be searched and purchased from via a single NPC, there would be no viable reason to place items on retainers standing in a market ward.

I could see this scenario as spelling the demise of the current market area system.

*******************

So, what could correct this, and allow world markets without wrecking our current quaint system? Here are some incoherent (and likely ill-thought out) ideas.

a) Delay world market until the mail system is implemented. The seller only sends purchases via Ultra-Super-Saver shipping (i.e. Sick Chocobo), which requires a 1 hour delivery time.

b) Tax rate of 25% for items on the world market. Sure, you may have global presence, but can you stomach the costs of all that advertising?

c) Items from such a long distance away are occasionally stolen by bandits during delivery. Nothing beats the assurance of receiving goods directly from the hand of the retainer.

d) The shipping department occasionally mixes up the order and sends the wrong item. Within the box is a black pudding. It attacks.

e) World Markets are only available during certain times (maybe one hour per Eorzean day). All other times show advertisements for the amazing ginsoo knife (watch it cut through this tin can!).

[VydarrTyr]

First, I wanted to thank all of you for keeping this discussion civil. It's so nice to see, when other posts often devolving into flame wars based on minor disagreements. You folks are awesome.

Can either of you think of a way to maintain the local economies of the three cities once Ishgard opens up? Short of there NOT being a method at all for selling/buying in the city (and that means disabling player bazaars as well) it will become the economic center of the world. As people level up, they will migrate. It happened in 11 with Juno and then White Gate. If SE cannot maintain the importance of the smaller local economies, then the best thing to do is to allow one unified global economy.

Hasn't this already happened, to some degree? At least on my server, most of the players have migrated to Uldah. LL is relatively empty, and Grid is nearly a ghost town.

When they open Ishgard, I think that a mass migration is inevitable. Sellers are going to go where the buyers are located. And buyers are going to go where the sellers are located. It's a vicious cycle.

I think that the 3 main cities will probably be sort of niche markets. If you want to buy/sell low level gear, you go to one of the 3 main cities, where the low level players will be located. If you want to buy iron ore, you go where the iron ore is most easily found (LL). If you want to buy saltwater fish, you go where the saltwater fish are most easily caught (LL). If you want to sell silver ore, you can try selling it where goldsmiths will congregate, which is probably around the goldsmith's guild (Uldah).

Other than that, I think it's kind of an inevitable switch. Amineri raises a good point about players congregating where there's content, though. If they open Ishgard, and most of the upper level content is still located in the 3 cities, I assume that players will still be drawn to the 3 main cities.

[Frebaut]

I like what the OP described. i'm ok with the gil sink, need to spend the 10 mill i have some wheir.

[Fieros]

1) If airships are added, the distance between cities becomes normalized. The current dynamic of Ul'dah being favored because it is in the center of the linear path becomes diminished. Hopefully this will reduce the 'over-centralization' of a single city like Ishgard. Agreed

2) The locations of the crafting guilds in various cities (and presumably NOT Ishgard) promotes crafting of the appropriate types within the correct cities. I suspect that as time goes by, more of the more advanced recipes (darksteel, anyone?) will require tier 3 facilities, thus requiring crafting within the appropriate city. This effectively creates more demand for certain products within those cities. Agreed. My thinking with the tax system revolved around this fact. I wanted to discourage players from selling items already available in the cities with crafting guilds.

Ex: If Buffalo Leather Spetch is sold at the Leatherworking guild in Gridania for 1600gil, I wanted traders to rent stands in Ul'dah or Limsa Lominsa if they wanted to deal in Buffalo Leather Spetch. That way the item is available on the local markets with no mark-up, as well as the World Market with buyers paying extra tax to balance the convienence- and players in Gridania would only buy the Buffalo Leather Spetch from the player economy if the free market had driven prices below the NPC price in the guild.

If retainers could more easily be placed within the market area of your city of choice WITHOUT the need to travel there (see previous suggestion for NPC linkshells for retainers), supply could be made to more easily match demand.Ok, wow. Your last suggestion about retainer linkpearl just hit my like a ton of bricks.

c) Still later, allow direction of retainer to a specific Market Area without having to "hold their hand".

YES!

3) There are high-level areas all four 'citified' zone. Coerthas stands out simply because it is missing the lower level content (monsters starting around rank 20ish), and gathering nodes of only grade 4 and 5. Heck, there are rank 65 sundrakes practically within walking distance of Ul'dah. Hopefully these high level areas will have high-rank content to go with them, and so this content will be well distributed throughout the continent. Agreed. All I could add to this point is a quote taken out of Letter from the Producer V

The people have spoken. As such, we'll be operating under the premise that new PvE content, such as dungeons containing sought-after loot, will be instanced. By instancing content in this way, we'll be able to reduce claim wars and counter-camping and all that. There's also the added merit of enabling the level design team to work with a clear theme in mind, and create much more engaging and challenging content.

4) Grand Companies will be present in at least the three cities of Gridania, Limsa Lominsa and Ul'dah (listed in order of my personal preference ^_^), but may not be present in Ishgard. Perhaps some other mechanic will take place here, since there seems to be a more 'warlike' vibe to Ishgard, as well as the small keeps surrounding it. Activity around the Grand Companies will draw people to various cities, thus upping demand in those cities. Another quote from Letter from the Producer V

Also, the solo play response for farming/gathering is extremely valuable feedback for the dev team, and I’m thinking that this is something we can tie into the in-game companies we have planned!

Well do I understand your intention. ^_^ I know a lot the ideas I've had, well ... end up with dire consequences or exploits that I hadn't originally intended. So, I'll poke around at your idea and see if we can't find weaknesses and ways to patch them up. I think that is a good concept, that if well-implemented could obviate the need for a global high-end auction house as I've proposed.

I don't think my suggestions cover the sale of high-end merchandise anywhere close to the true Auction House you proposed. I would love to see that type of AH in FFXIV.

In any event, most any item a player could want could be made available via a world market stall. If pretty much all items are available via this method, and all can be searched and purchased from via a single NPC, there would be no viable reason to place items on retainers standing in a market ward.

I could see this scenario as spelling the demise of the current market area system.

Hmmm, I see what you mean. My reasoning was that those who weren't interested in upgrading their retainers beyond increased storage (due to gil shortage, or general disinterest in playing the role of trader) could go on with business as usual not renting market stands, and selling whatever items they aquired while adventuring in the local markets. Once players purchased/quested to upgrade their retainer and were able to sell on the World Market- I think you are right- they would continue to rent stands. I saw it as somewhat of a mid-game goal for players interested in trading.

Ex: You are in Ul'dah and want to buy 20 Willow Logs to break cut into lumber and grind up your carpentry by pumping out 80 masks. You first check the World Market and find the cheapest listing is for 2000gil each. Coincidentally, the retainer selling those logs is located in Ul'dah (since selling logs on the World Market from Gridania would impose an additional tax the player would likely chose to set up shop in Ul'dah or Limsa Lominsa) and to avoid paying the convienence fee associated with using the instant delivery World Market, you instead use the existing item search. Since you already know which retainer you want to purchase from, you mark only that specific retainer and travel directly to the appropriate Ward.

So, what could correct this, and allow world markets without wrecking our current quaint system? Here are some incoherent (and likely ill-thought out) ideas.

a) Delay world market until the mail system is implemented. The seller only sends purchases via Ultra-Super-Saver shipping (i.e. Sick Chocobo), which requires a 1 hour delivery time.I purposely left out needing a mail system because I figured if they wanted one it would exist already (or at least been mentioned as something they are considering). But of course a mail system would work too.

b) Tax rate of 25% for items on the world market. Sure, you may have global presence, but can you stomach the costs of all that advertising?This was closer to the figure I first had in mind of 20%, but I settled on the more palatable 10% before originally posting. I wouldn't mind 25%

c) Items from such a long distance away are occasionally stolen by bandits during delivery. Nothing beats the assurance of receiving goods directly from the hand of the retainer.LOL

d) The shipping department occasionally mixes up the order and sends the wrong item. Within the box is a black pudding. It attacks.Yikes!

e) World Markets are only available during certain times (maybe one hour per Eorzean day). All other times show advertisements for the amazing ginsoo knife (watch it cut through this tin can!).Hmmm, maybe. But one thing that always pissed me off from XI was the guilds only being open during certain hours of certain days. Seemed I was never able to use them.

At least on my server, most of the players have migrated to Uldah. LL is relatively empty, and Grid is nearly a ghost town.

Same.

need to spend the 10 mill i have some wheir.

Yeah, definately. Gil sinks and an AH dealing in high-end merchandise, such as Ami's suggestion, would be great for end-game players sitting on fat nest eggs.