Auction House system to complement existing Market Areas (Discussion) [dev1019]

[Amineri]

This is a repost of a topic from the general discussion forum from here

Let me open this by acknowledging that there have been several (and some long) discussions regarding auction house vs. market wards. My purpose here is NOT to re-open this same debate, but to make a proposal for an auction house that would complement and supplement the existing market areas (acknowledging that improvements will likely be made).

Regarding the roles that an auction house and market areas would fill, I make the following general suggestion:

1) The market area system fulfills the role of selling commodity goods -- that is, goods that are sold in (relative) quantity, and for which prices are relatively well known.

2) An auction house system would fulfill the role of selling specialty, rare, and/or unique items -- that is, goods that appear rarely, and for which appropriate prices are difficult to determine.

I'm deliberately avoiding discussion of how market areas should be changed/modified (and hope that others will not hijack this thread to that end), and will instead focus upon possible features of such an auction house system, and my rationale for the features I am proposing.

Auction House features:
a) The auction house is for auctions only.
There is no option to list an item with a "buy it now" price. Since the auction house is for items whose price is difficult to determine, true auctions are the rule. If a price is known, the item can be sold via the current market ward system. Bidding is 'open', in that the current bid price is known to potential buyers. To mitigate sniping, upon a new bid being received, the auction duration is reset to end no less than one day after the new bid is placed. To allow the auction to close, and encourage bidding, the seller can choose to end the auction and accept the current bid.

b) Auction listing costs are high.
I propose something like a 100k gil listing fee, along with a 10% tax commission. This prevents the auction house from becoming a duplication of the market areas. Ideally the items listed via auction will be limited in number, and of high value. The high cost provides incentive for players to continue to use the existing market areas for the tax advantages, as well as avoiding the listing fee. In addition, the cost provides a gil sink associated with high end items.

c) Auctions are common across all three cities
The purpose of selling an item in the auction house is to achieve maximum visibility, so auction houses locations will exist in all available cities (and possibly hamlets), and all auctions will be visible in all auction house locations. This also provides a justification for the high cost of listing an auction.

d) Items won are retrieved from an auction house location
Since there is no current mail system, items won via auction will be retrievable from any auction house location. This is another way in which the high cost is justified. Once an in-game mail system is added, this could be re-examined.


I think that this auction house system would provide a mechanism that is lacking in the game currently, without creating a 'doubled system' in which the auction houses are competing against the market areas. I would envision that, as items become first available, they will command a premium and be sold via the auction house. As more items become available and prices stabilize, these items would then migrate to being sold via the market areas.

Note that since the listing fee is fixed, if an item were sold via auction for 80k, after the 10% fee the seller would only recover 72k of the original 100k listing fee, thus selling at a loss. This 'risk' mechanism will help limit the number of items available via the auction house.

The current market areas do not (in my opinion) adequately provide a mechanism for the buying / selling of rare and unusual items. The market areas provide limited visibility, and prices can be difficult to determine. The only remaining options are shouting in a city, or listing the item on a third party site, neither of which seem satisfactory. The auction house system described above would provide a venue for these high end items, while not replacing or detracting from the current market areas system.

[Amineri]

The following are possible enhancements to such an auction house system.

Auction house accounts:
A character can create an auction house account by speaking to an NPC at the auction house and depositing gil into the new account. This yields the following benefits:

a) An Auction House NPC linkpearl is supplied to the character
b) Bids can be made via this linkpearl, but only using the gil funds currently on account
c) For a seller, current status of an auction can be checked via linkpearl, and the auction can be closed via linkpearl. The resulting gil is place in the character's account
d) Depositing/withdrawing gil must be done in person
e) Initiation an auction must be done in person, to supply the item
f) Retrieving an item won must be done in person

Alternative Listing Fees:
It has been pointed out that having a high listing fee would likely make the auction house system the exclusive province of 'end-game' players, and would not enhance the playing experience at all for low and mid-game players.

To address this, the following alternative fee listing system is proposed:

Listing fees are determined by item availability within the market areas.
When an item is listed within the auction house, a check of all market areas is performed. The initial listing fee is 5000 gil per item found within the markets, with a maximum fee of 100k. This system explicitly provides deconfliction of the the proposed auction house with the market areas, and provides for lower rank crafters and buyers to participate in the auction house.

[Wolfie]

AH: Selling fast-selling, common, and cheap items.
MW: Selling slow-selling, rare, expensive items.

This is almost exactly how AH and bazaars worked in FFXI, Aion, and practically every MMO that had both.

People will naturally flock to the AH to make their quick sales, but when they know they have an expensive, rare item that will take a while to sell, they'll put up a bazaar or shout in trade chat to pawn it off. Nobody wants to re-list an expensive item several times, when you can do it just once in a bazaar.

Even if you have no limits on the kinds of items you can sell in both systems, people will still be doing this.

[origamikitsune]

Except... Ami's idea is the exact opposite. While functionally providing the same, the bazaars are for faster selling, low priced items. And the auction house for slower selling, higher priced items. So, a unique implementation of what everyone else does? I can dig that.

[Reika]

We do no need an auction house. motion denied ^^

[Wild]

SE is behind the 8 ball on this one. While they want to try to be innovative.... reinventing the wheel on this one is just a bridge too far. What you have right now is really horrible SE, let's get a real AH implemented! Albeit, since I am typing this in a "new" topic called "Markets & Retainers"... confidence is low at this point; a shame really

[Fieros]

Great suggestions Ami. I kept visualizing an actual auction (rare paintings, antiques, prized collectibles, expensive cars) while reading through your description of an auction house for FFXIV. I think that would be truly unique and stand miles apart from other games while satisfying a need for players to buy/sell their rare or valuable items. At an actual auction it would be ludicrous to move from bidding on some valuable 5mil painting to something common. Buyers would lose respect- thats what I like about your system, it encourages trade of rare/ valuable items only.

It has been pointed out that having a high listing fee would likely make the auction house system the exclusive province of 'end-game' players, and would not enhance the playing experience at all for low and mid-game players.

The auction house should be the place where 'end-game' players come to buy and sell rare merchandise. Low and mid-game players can still bid, as they would likely have not obtained anything worth auctioning at that point. Moko grass, gridanian walnuts, and +1 canvas half-gloves are not what I want to place bids on.

[Zantetsuken]

I like the idea of an auction house as with REAL auctions for high end items. The seller puts a starting price up and the option is open for a certain time in which people can bid on the item. (like ebay).

This wouldn't be something for the main cities, rather it should be implemented in Ishgard.

[origamikitsune]

For Ishgard for sure, along with access in the three main cities (maybe with Ishgard having a lower fee?) making it a "world" auction house I think would be the way to go.

[Amineri]

AH: Selling fast-selling, common, and cheap items.
MW: Selling slow-selling, rare, expensive items.

This is almost exactly how AH and bazaars worked in FFXI, Aion, and practically every MMO that had both.

People will naturally flock to the AH to make their quick sales, but when they know they have an expensive, rare item that will take a while to sell, they'll put up a bazaar or shout in trade chat to pawn it off. Nobody wants to re-list an expensive item several times, when you can do it just once in a bazaar.

Even if you have no limits on the kinds of items you can sell in both systems, people will still be doing this.

This is an interesting twist on the concept I had.

I think in this vision, your 'auction house' actually would function as a 'commodity exchange'. This would a fast paced place, with people constantly shouting buy and sell orders for various commodities, with the exchange (the in-game mechanics) helping match up buyers and sellers.

I would envision it is people placing buy and sell orders for various commodities, and when a match is made the commodity exchange makes the exchange for the players, automatically swapping items and gil (minus the exchange fee).

For example:
Player A has 67 iron ore listed as sell for 990 gil each
Player B has 52 iron ore listed as sell for 1050 gil each
Player C enters the exchange and buy order for 90 iron are at up to 1100 gil each.
The exchange automatically sells Players A's 67 iron ore to Player C for 990 gil each, and also sells 23 of Player B's iron ore for 1050 gil each.

This is a perfectly viable exchange mechanism, and one that mirrors real world activities.

The principle difference is that this represents a hectic commodity exchange in NY, while the current market wards represent a trip to the grocery or hardware store.

Regarding the "MW: Selling slow-selling, rare, expensive items.", I think that this is following the concept of a boutique store. Only the expensive of beautiful items may be had here. Prices are high, since you're paying as much for the brand-name prestige as the item itself. Items are displayed on beautiful mannequins, and passers-by stare with undisguised envy.

Both of these concepts are valid game designs, and present interesting possibilities.

The only concerns that pop off the top of my head are:
a) Commodity Exchanges may be more susceptible to market manipulation by RMTers and unscrupulous players
b) Item Boutiques command fairly low visibility, and don't provide a mechanism for buyers / seller to converge to a mutually acceptable price.

I'm sure both of these could be worked around, however!

Thanks for the feedback ^_^