The trinity, party responsibility, and how to try and improve the game from within

[Kaurie]

People expecting the healer to pick the slack for the DPS is not fair and unreasonable in my opinion.

It's a fine mentality, but this one line of your post irks me. One could easily say that a damage dealer needs to pick up the slack of a healer who refuses to DPS, as healers DPSing is a norm. However, everyone in a duty is part of a team, and it'd be great if everyone there operated in a team mentality. Instead of viewing how you are picking up each others slack, think about how you can all work together and what you can do to help your team achieve its goal.

To the OP, well written summary of the many issues regarding trinity in this game. Thumbs up.

[Bixillarla]

It's a fine mentality, but this one line of your post irks me. One could easily say that a damage dealer needs to pick up the slack of a healer who refuses to DPS, as healers DPSing is a norm. However, everyone in a duty is part of a team, and it'd be great if everyone there operated in a team mentality. Instead of viewing how you are picking up each others slack, think about how you can all work together and what you can do to help your team achieve its goal.

To the OP, well written summary of the many issues regarding trinity in this game. Thumbs up.

It is not the norm. Healers job is to heal and keep people alive, since Alex Savage people have been expecting healers to DPS in every dungeon. Before AS came out it was not expected and there were no problems. If I want to DPS I would not be healing. My job is to keep everyone alive not kill. When I join a DF roulette it says Healer not DPS for my role.

[Inferiae]

It is not the norm. Healers job is to heal and keep people alive, since Alex Savage people have been expecting healers to DPS in every dungeon. Before AS came out it was not expected and there were no problems. If I want to DPS I would not be healing. My job is to keep everyone alive not kill. When I join a DF roulette it says Healer not DPS for my role.

You say that based on other MMOs, not based on this one. On FFXIV, this is indeed the norm, ever since Sastasha. I ran it as WHM the other day and had to use Cure only two times the entire dungeon. Stone is Level 1, Aero is level 4 and Cleric Stance is level 6.

Just because it's different from what you wanted or what you expected, doesn't mean it's not intended.

Mind you, I agree healers shouldn't be needed to DPS, but this game is currently designed this way (which I don't agree either), like it or not.


@To OP, though:

I've been thinking the same thing, how tanks should feel more like tanks and not DPS that can take tank busters, and how healers should feel more like healers and not DPS that has to turn Cleric Stance off at specific moments of the fight to complement the other healer.

[Felis]

You say that based on other MMOs, not based on this one. On FFXIV, this is indeed the norm, ever since Sastasha. I ran it as WHM the other day and had to use Cure only two times the entire dungeon. Stone is Level 1, Aero is level 4 and Cleric Stance is level 6.

It is a norm forced by the community, not by the devs.

Yoshida said in an interview, that during difficulty balancing no damage is expected by the healer (not even auto-attack damage), and that a healer only have to do damage if either the DPS classes are undergeared or just play bad.
https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/12...tions-requests

So, a healer doing damage should be a red alarm sign for the DPS classes.

maybe the devs should build in a tome reward penalty for DPS classes if the healer did more damage than they.

[Kaurie]

It is a norm forced by the community, not by the devs.

Yoshida said in an interview, that during difficulty balancing no damage is expected by the healer, and that a healer only have to do damage if either the DPS classes are undergeared or just play bad.
https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/12...tions-requests

So, a healer doing damage should be a red alarm sign for the DPS classes.

The dev's don't 'force' anything. They create content that encourages a playstyle. In this sense, they created content and designed jobs in a way that encourages healers to take part in damage dealing. Therefore, the community has adopted this and is now a norm.

Just to clarify, the dev's don't force a healer to heal either.

The topic at hand is if this is a problem (which is evidenced of the quantity of threads on the subject), and what we and/or the devs can do to address it.

[Felis]

The dev's don't 'force' anything. They create content that encourages a playstyle. In this sense, they created content and designed jobs in a way that encourages healers to take part in damage dealing. Therefore, the community has adopted this and is now a norm.

And also here Yoshida apologized for Alex Savage and said that they don't use those strict DPS checks anymore in the next Alex Savage.

[Kaurie]

And also here Yoshida apologized for Alex Savage and said that they don't use those strick DPS checks anymore in the next Alex Savage.

I'm not sure if you misquoted. I can't tell how that is related to what I said.

[Kosmos992k]

So, a healer doing damage should be a red alarm sign for the DPS classes.

As I have said before, any DD complaining about healer DPS had better damn well be doing good damage for their role before they open their mouth. Outside of raiding/end-game, if healer DPS is required by yoUr group, it's because the DDs are not doing well.

[Kaurie]

It is not the norm.

I guess by norm, I meant that normally healers DPS, in that most healers DPS. This is at least from my experience.

Healers job is to heal and keep people alive, since Alex Savage people have been expecting healers to DPS in every dungeon. Before AS came out it was not expected and there were no problems.

I've personally been DPSing as a healer, and seeing healers DPS normally, and expecting as such since at least 2.4.

If I want to DPS I would not be healing. My job is to keep everyone alive not kill. When I join a DF roulette it says Healer not DPS for my role.

You have accurately exemplified the entire point of the OP's post.

[KaitlanKela]

I both agree and disagree.

I agree that Tanks and Healers DPS has allowed actual DPS to (on occasion, not everyone) be lazy in content because a good healer/tank will pick up the slack and it will go unnoticed.

HOWEVER, this isn't really a design issue, because there is no cap on group DPS. If everyone worked toward clearing the instance as best they could, no matter what color their icon is, the run will be better than if one person decided to only do the bare minimum of what is necessary.

Also, I've said this in other threads too: The trinity is for DF purposes only. If it was so essential then the phrase "composition not imposed on pre-formed parties" would not exist. The trinity's purpose is to ensure that a group of random players has a diverse enough combined toolkit to clear an instance easily. Once you're in the instance, ALL party members objectives are the same, and a good team player will be using 100% of their given toolkit to successfully achieve those goals efficiently. Again, the color of their icon shouldn't matter here. It really is not the end of the world if the "trinity" gets broken down a little bit. It's just an arbitrary classification.

Any player DELIBERATELY choosing to do less than their best is being inconsiderate. Not against the rules per se, but there may be consequences imposed within the group and since the choice to play sub-optimally was made, personal responsibility needs to be taken for that choice.