The trinity, party responsibility, and how to try and improve the game from within

[KaitlanKela]

It would only remain a blind system for so long. Someone would inevitably math out what the magic break point would be between a bonus and a punishment, and people would strive to replicate it. In addition, 3.X dungeons can't be undersized, so for law farming, it would still remain a concern.

I must say that you are very good at finding abuses. Maybe you should design systems. No sarcasm.

Hmm...What about if the bonus could only be received if the instance was finished with all four players alive? Or if bonus couldn't be received if any party member died more than x times? Basically make it to where eam members dying is disincentivized.

I still think there's something to be said for the efficiency issue. For any grinded item like tomes, efficiency is king. If it's slower to kill off the DDs than it is to cooperate with them, the behavior will select against itself.

[Jim_Berry]

I must say that you are very good at finding abuses. Maybe you should design systems. No sarcasm.

Hmm...What about if the bonus could only be received if the instance was finished with all four players alive? Or if bonus couldn't be received if any party member died more than x times? Basically make it to where eam members dying is disincentivized.

I still think there's something to be said for the efficiency issue. For any grinded item like tomes, efficiency is king. If it's slower to kill off the DDs than it is to cooperate with them, the behavior will select against itself.

Nah, don't like this. During the Zodiac weapon runs, if you were dead when the boss died, you get no credit. Imagine if you died because the healer was focusing too much on DD'ing, or as a DPS, you lagged and didn't move out the AoE. Then, they healer raised you and you died again after you got up. Or you died, and the healer didn't have enough MP to raise you while the DPS people continued to beat down the boss....

[Jim_Berry]

TL;DR :
I guess the best way to summarize this 15k caracters essay would be : "Be social and try to do your best, as a player and as a human" ?

Good read, but I'd like to comment on this bolded text:

Being social goes against a lot of players. If there's a group in PF but you KNOW you can clear it, you ask if you can join with bonus, and most of the times, it's "No!" or a bazillion questions that you just say forget it.

[Felmyst]

Wtf is trinity? Are you kids done trying to create new terms? Its just a classic party since how they are since 1998 designs....

[Felis]

Wtf is trinity? Are you kids done trying to create new terms? Its just a classic party since how they are since 1998 designs....

the term is not really new
But maybe not as old as 1998

[DPZ2]

the term is not really new
But maybe not as old as 1998
[/IMG]

For MMOs it might not be old.

I first encountered the concept in role-playing dungeon instances in college 40 years ago.

It was a lot looser then, and 'tank' wasn't really a role so much as the fact that the heavy metal group [aka those who wore Plate] were always up front and close with the trash/boss, while the squishies [aka those who died easily when hit up-close] were casting fire bolts or firing arrows from afar. Healers [clerics] generally belonged to the heavy metal group and we could DPS for sure.

The heavy metal group had a job to contain the monsters and prevent them from running at the squishies, while the squishies had the job of wreaking as much havoc on the enemy as possible. Clerics, um, we bashed and blessed and cured as necessary.

I like to think there would be fewer arguments if healers in MMOs still belonged to that heavy metal group.

[FoxyAreku]

Wtf is trinity? Are you kids done trying to create new terms? Its just a classic party since how they are since 1998 designs....

May want to think before you post, since 'Trinity' has been a term ever since World of Warcraft launched (and possibly before), all a post like this does is make you look woefully ignorant.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

. .

She's not talking about a system currently in the game. She's talking about a theoretical system where the healer, and only the healer, would gain bonus tomes under certain situations by applying high DPS while keeping the party alive. Under those situations, it doesn't seem as open to abuse, so I'd actually like it, but conversely, under that system, I'm curious how you'd reward DPS that perform exceptionally, as well as tanks.

[Jim_Berry]

She's not talking about a system currently in the game. She's talking about a theoretical system where the healer, and only the healer, would gain bonus tomes under certain situations by applying high DPS while keeping the party alive. Under those situations, it doesn't seem as open to abuse, so I'd actually like it, but conversely, under that system, I'm curious how you'd reward DPS that perform exceptionally, as well as tanks.

Then the "Adventurer in need" would always be DPS lol...

[Kaurie]

How about a Gold/Silver/Bronze medal system based on individual contribution - which would affect exp/gil/tomestones rewarded from both drops and the roulette.

It would take into account Damage Taken, Damage Dealt, Damage Healed
Therefore, if a healer cannot DPS and must heal more due to people taking extra damage, they are not penalized. However, it would encourage a healer to DPS when there is little healing to do.
It would encourage DPS to maximize their damage output, as they are generally not healing
It would encourage tanks to first focus on damage mitigation, and then on damage dealt

That said, each criteria would be tuned per role. Like taking 20k damage to the tank is not much, but if a DPS takes 20k damage throughout, that is not so great.