Originally Posted by Quor

I'd like there to be a reward instead of simply resource neutral when TBN breaks, but it can't be as insane as an auto crit or direct crit. A small potency increase or perhaps mana cost reduction on the next Edge/Flood, something more indirect but still meaningful. Maybe 10% more potency, or the next Edge/Flood after DA is consumed have half cost.

The problem with making TBN a DPS gain instead of DPS neutral (or effectively neutral) as it is, is that it implicitly encourages you to eat more damage so you can put out more damage. Don't get me wrong, because I think that's pretty cool, but it doesn't work in a one-size-fits-all game where DRK has to play either MT or OT. I'll take TBN for what it is considering it's DPS neutral and also makes you laugh in the face of tankbusters.

Also, There is no "predicament" as far as tank balance goes. Yeah, DRK and WAR *might* need some extremely minor potency tweaks to bring them in line, but the difference in DPS between the weakest tank and the strongest tank amounts to roughly 2.5-3%, which is hilariously insignificant. There's also the fact that as Crit becomes more powerful, WAR's DPS will naturally increase as the patch cycle increases as the overwhelming bulk of it comes from their inner release window.

Only thing i want is for nf to have no target requirement. Onslaught not costing rage would be a plus. Mythril tempest applying eye would be nice also.

But nascent flash being self targettable is the big one for me. Especially for pvp.

Dark Knight
Darkside - This Should give more damage, Currently it feels lackluster as a class Mechanic. What if Darkside had multiple stacks similar to greased lightning? So it would give 10%/20%/30% more damage for example. Overall Current Dark Knight feels lackluster compared to previous expansions and something like this would help.

Warrior - Remove Cost for Onslaught, Getting Your Beast Gauge Full gives the effect of Storms Eye.

Originally Posted by Nithralder

Dark Knight
Darkside - This Should give more damage, Currently it feels lackluster as a class Mechanic. What if Darkside had multiple stacks similar to greased lightning? So it would give 10%/20%/30% more damage for example. Overall Current Dark Knight feels lackluster compared to previous expansions and something like this would help.

Warrior - Remove Cost for Onslaught, Getting Your Beast Gauge Full gives the effect of Storms Eye.

the damage of darkside doesn't matter since current DRK dps is fine, his desing is more problematic that the damage that offer since is fine.

Originally Posted by NyneSwordz

Only thing i want is for nf to have no target requirement. Onslaught not costing rage would be a plus. Mythril tempest applying eye would be nice also.

But nascent flash being self targettable is the big one for me. Especially for pvp.

All three of these things would make a huge leap for WAR. I get you can just make a macro to toss NF on your OT/MT, but it seems silly to mandate that when dragon-eye is self-targetable now.

WAR is pretty terrible in 3/4 fights this tier. In E1, WAR doesn't get to 'hold' the boss the entire time, meaning they lose damage (vengeance) by not being a main tank while also having akward timing with IR during the fight. Same can be said for DRK in E1.

E2? WAR doesn't feel great while PLD just shreks that fight, seriously E2 was made for PLD and DRK is strong in that fight with Dark mind being actually pretty good.
E3... this fight was made for DRK/WAR. The WAR/DRK comp makes it to where you don't need to share TBs and just invuln all 4 TBs perfectly. However, WAR kinda has a problem where vengeance doesn't work for its damage (its all magical) so you don't use it, no point.
E4... E4 trashes WAR pretty hard, yeah you can holmgang it... but like Titania you have to cooldown the first hit and then holmgang the rest requiring more cooldowns and concentration from healers than almost DRK. However, I would argue DRK is worse in E4 than WAR because well... its almost all physical besides raid wide which is fine... but that makes dark mind a dead skill.
Now look at GNB/PLD. Where in any of these fights are they weak? Maybe Leviathan requiring them to swap during TBs. However, they are just better choices than the other choices (minus Leviathan).

Originally Posted by NyneSwordz

Only thing i want is for nf to have no target requirement. Onslaught not costing rage would be a plus. Mythril tempest applying eye would be nice also.

But nascent flash being self targettable is the big one for me. Especially for pvp.

Iirc, with the average ppgcd boosts to the combos alongside FC nerfs, Onslaught is a potency gain against pre-Enhanced Infuriate 590-pot FC, even against EI FC, and barely a potency loss at present (sub-40 potency). That's less costly than GNB's Rough Divide being used outside of No Mercy (i.e. just for mobility) or especially PLD's Intervene outside of Fight or Flight.

Quick question, for anyone, really: Would you prefer that self-healing skills had back damage-to-healing %modifiers of greater than 25%? I wonder what Nascent Flash/Souleater/Life Surge would look like each with a 100% modifier...

One thing i do want to mention...It all good saying x is good and y is weaker...in a vacuum...but we're not in a vacuum.
Yes, TBN is stronger...but to what end? Lets look at the current Savage content.

E1S - Eden Primes auto attacks, the tank bleeds, beams and spears all do enough damage to break TBN (Yes, even auto attacks. x2 of them is enough to break it) - It's the perfect fight for DRK, more or less. Even if you invuln-swap all the spears instead of splitting.
E2S - Auto attacks from voidwalker still provide enough damage to break TBN, and her auto attacks are also magical. Tank busters are also plentiful, making DRK the ideal MT in E2S.

Now...Here is the problem.

E3S - Leviathans auto attacks are PATHETIC and its very unlikely his auto attacks will break TBN before the duration is over. I've tried it, and most of the time TBN just fell off with only a sliver of shield left. In this fight, most of the time anyway, Rip tides (The tank busters, that only happen 4 times through the whole fight) are usually invulned and so TBN is useless. The only time its useful in that fight is during Black smokers, and even then any tank can survive it just fine and so bringing a DRK just for a single TBN usage is horrible.

E4S - Its better, but still not ideal. His main big bad tank busters for example...always invulned, pretty much, and so TBN doesnt factor in all that much, although i will admit my group is still progging on him so i dont have much else to say.

Sooo...TBN is great, but sometimes its simply TOO great to the point where in some fights bringing a DRK is sub-optimal, especially in fights, like in the current eden tier, where there is only enough tank busters in any given fight that you can count them on one hand, with the exception to E2S Levi has only 4 tank busters and so does titan as far as im aware. FOUR TANK BUSTERS OVER A FULL 10 MINUTE FIGHT, it's hilarious, and it just begs you to abuse invuln abilties to tackle them rather than use your actual cooldowns for them. It's also a problem that once the DRK is geared up enough TBN may no longer break from auto attacks in time, for instance.



That's just my two cents anyway...I do think DRK and WAR need damage buffs is nothing else to bring them a bit more in line so then there is actual choice in what tank to bring for each fight, might even encourage people to omni-tank rather than just level PLD and be done with it...Also, does anyone else find it weird that the two classes that have weapons that need to be wielded in two hands do less damage than the two that hold and use their weapon in one hand? Weird.

Originally Posted by RavenFall_

Getting your Beast Gauge to 100 isn't really something that happens that often, now that WAR has lost it's passive crit there's not much of a reason to keep your gauge high anymore. Gauge is constantly getting dumped on Inner Chaos' and Fell Cleaves in raid buff windows and Upheavel off cooldown, so getting an eye refresh off a full gauge is too inconsistent and thus inefficient. Storm's Eye is just a chore to work around, it needs a big change.

Wouldn't that be just as much justification to return the (prominence of) the skills which used to surround it and offered it increased control?

The nearly potency-even Onslaught used to play a part in that -- doubly so when increased gauge offered increased critical strike chance and Inner Release still included Rage costs to work around. Wouldn't it be as sensible to make the mechanic more integral, but more than proportionately more manipulable, as to streamline it?

I guess I'm just on the "if you can reach parity without homogeneity, do that, and when you already have parity, why homogenize further?" side of the fence.

Originally Posted by VenKitsune

E3S - Leviathans auto attacks are PATHETIC and its very unlikely his auto attacks will break TBN before the duration is over. I've tried it, and most of the time TBN just fell off with only a sliver of shield left.

I have to wonder if TBN, in some ways, might provide more rDPS -- including healer GCDs saved (not measured by fflogs) -- if it was reduced to 20% of personal HP, down from 25% target. Such would still give the same value as an emergency save tool against strong damage but would sacrifice maximal value for broader applicability. Given TBN's already absurd maximal theoretical value, that would seem reasonable enough.