Hey guys, first, sorry for my english, in my time back in School, English was not a "must have" Thing :cool: Most of it i learnd by my self, but still, i hope u undertsnad waht i try to say and explain.
So, Thread Nr: 9999 about Warrior... i know i know...
Warrior is a great Job, i love it, lvling was fun and cool.
Now im at a Point in game (Titan HM) where i really see the Gap between Paladin and Warrior.
Before all the Paladinfanboys shout at me... i know i know, Warrior can Tank everything like Paladin also.
With one diffrence.
MORE WORK FOR HEALER
I will write my opinion how is the situation right now, then a List what should be changed, and after it, why.
From Fresh lvl 50 til now, my HP increased from 5xxx to 6800, sounds cool, but my dmg didnt increased that much.
While lvling and low Dungeons, Bloodbath, Stormspath was sometimes a life saver.
Later Inner Beast was great.
Once i hit the Point where i can fight Garuda HM and Titan HM i saw the big Gap between me, and a Paladin Tank.
Titan HM hits me with Normalo hit between 1000-2500 and his Rockthing for 4500.
Bloodbath heals me for 40-100 HP PER Hit.
StormsPath about 100-150 all 7,5 sec.
Inner Beast about 800-2000
2000 Selfheal from IB you can get, IF you have Malm buff on you, debuff on Boss, Convalsence and Berserk. then you can get a 2000er Selfheal, but Convalsence has 120sec CD Berserk 90sec CD.
Lets take the middle and say 1500 Selfheal. you can use IB 4 time on One Minute. not more. You Need to stack up 5 warth wich cost you ca. 19sec. plus Infuriate.
4x 1500 = 6000 Heal, in One Minute, in the same Time, Titan hits you about waht?
Lets say he hits you "only" with 1300dmg perhit, all 2,5sec, that means 31'200dmg per Minute.
So, you see, IB sucks.
Lets check Bloodbath, it heals you for 30sec about 40-100 per Hit, if you use your Dot and so on.
NO HEALER will feel any diffrence if you use Bloodbath or not.
Bloodbath Sucks.
Stormspath, can be used only all "7,5sec" and heals you for about 100-150.
Titan hits you in "7,5sec" for 3900dmg
And we see again, StormsPath sucks.
SE said Once:
Paladin should be a Tank who reduce incoming dmg (thats what he do)
Warrior should be who Conter incoming dmg with his Selfheal (selfheal sucks, so we cant conter)
Paladin is a preactiv tank, he use his Skills before dmg Comes.
Warrior is a activ tank, he use his skills (most of it) after we got the dmg.
Because our Selfheal is just a bad joke, we cant do your Job proper. and i dont mean "Tanking" i mean Help the Group, because, Warrior as MT by Titan means always more work for Healers then with a Paladin.
What should be changed:
1. Put the Extraheal directly to Defiance and increase it to 20% (PLD take 20% less dmg we take 20% more heal, fair deal i think)
2. Change Bloodbath from 25% dmg done in to 3% max HP
3. Change StormsPath from 50% dmg done in to 10% max HP
4. Change Inner Beast from 300% dmg done in to 30% max HP
I know i know, These Numbers sounds extremly OP, but lets us take a closer look.
Lets say we have a Warrior with 7000 HP
Bloodbath grants him per hit 210HP selfheal for 30sec and 90sec CD.
With Overpower and alot of Mobs it sounds bretty OP, but it is not, beside Paladins Flash has Blind effect, so he takes less dmg also.
Stormspath will grant 700HP like i said, StormsPaths can be used only all 7,5sec. thats about 8 times per Minute. so 5600HP selfheal per Minute.
lets Keep 31'200dmg from up there.
Paladin with 20%dmg reduce for 20sec. in These 20sec he will absorb 2080dmg,
We can selfheal us in 22,5sec for 2100 HP, so more or less the same.
But we Need to use our dmg Combo and not our tank Combo to increase aggro.
(i Count the Math without 20% dmg reduce from Shild Stance)
now Inner Beast,
My Idea, a 30% heal, wich is about 2000HP. dont Forget, we Need to build up first 5 Stacks Warth, and its not more then 4 times per Minute possible to use it.
But with These changes the Healer maybee will feel something.
We dont have
20%dmg reduce 20sec 90sec CD
40%dmg reduce 10sec 180sec CD
100%dmg reduce 10sec 420sec CD
60% more Blockrating (Block = 20-24% dmg reduce) 15sec 180sec CD.
dont Forget debuff on Enemy wich decrease Strength by 10%... ok i dont know how much "dmg reduce" it is, but it still is a dmg reduce.
You see, Paladin has alot stuffs to do his Job, and make Healer works easier.
So at least, give Warrior the same Chance, give him the Selfheal what he Need, to to his Job and not to make Healer lifes harder.
and for all the Paladin fanboys out there.
I know i Know. "Wait til Crytsal Tower, then you are a good tank also blablalba"
If we Need to wait for CT Equip to do Coil, tell me, why can Paladin Coil right now with current Equip?
And i know, some Warriors are doing Coil, but i also read alot about, that Paladins are easier to Keep alive. and thats the main Point.
so, now i wrote my Roman... flameon :cool:
Idea for Warriors
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09-27-2013, 10:06 AMRios-DrakoonIdea for Warriors
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09-27-2013, 09:27 PMRios-Drakoon
no flames? no troll? nothing? o.O
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09-27-2013, 09:37 PMZeila
Actually your english is decent for not being native. unfortunately have to head to work so will have to read most of this later :\
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09-27-2013, 09:43 PMBladeryk
I love it, had a similar idea myself. Granted we are supposed to be high Vit/HP tanks making half out heals damage based and the others % based was a bad design IMO. They should be all % based as you said, this would make our self heals more reliable and not so all over the place and offensive cool down reliant(also thrill of battle + Inner beast would be a nice combo). My only other suggestion would be change Mercy stroke to a counter attack that only becomes active after receiving a critical hit and is a guaranteed 20% heal.
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09-27-2013, 10:16 PMBlazn
Yea I agree 100% we need our self heals on a %. Also I'd like to see IB be able to be used at 3 stacks witha reduced heal say maybe a 15 - 20% heal on 3 stacks I also think defiance should have a native self heal something small though and only a % of damage done not total hp though. Seeing as it decreases our damage thus decreasing our self heals there for decreasing our tanking ability. And the fact the fact that our "tanking buff" reduces our damage done and our damage is a huge factor in our mitigation of damage, it make no sense to get more hp but reduce mitigation in order to get the hp. Seems to nearly cancel itself out.
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09-27-2013, 11:58 PMSargon
I don't think Convalescence helps with warrior self heal.
Also you need to understand, all those saying warrior needs a self heal buff, that heal with never scale with target's difficulty.
Right now warrior is already a monster solo and lack in end game, if I'm to believe what most war50 past titanHM say.
If you increase self healing potency, warrior will be even stronger for solo/low difficulty dungeons, and will still be too weak for the next top end game dungeon with a crazy boss.
What would work, for example if you want to keep warrior berserk background, would be abilities that reduce the damage you take in percent after certain offensive skills.
Warrior needs scaling abilities, moving the self heal cursor will only delay imbalance to a near futur. -
09-28-2013, 12:19 AMRhazeCain
You know, % heals from healer are also a thing... Stoneskin and Lustrate from Scholar currently. That's another half-baked idea there..
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09-28-2013, 12:31 AMNovaLevossida
Scaling would help.
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09-28-2013, 01:40 AMBlaznLove people that don't read the OP and try to argue blindly. Switching to % heals instead of potency ones was the point not increasing their potency. And if done with % it will continue to scale correctly with new content. Please attempt to think prior to posting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sargon
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09-28-2013, 03:10 AMSargonOh yeah sorry boss :Quote:
Originally Posted by Blazn
- what op suggest wouldn't increase our healing potency
- scaling with our hp, that's completly different than scaling with our damage, and far better than reducing incoming damage
- I'm off this topic since you closed the debate and declared this a patch note -
09-28-2013, 04:10 AMMillieVanillie
Rios, even though I agree with you wholeheartedly alot on how Warriors are a burden on healers due to insufficient self healing skills, would it make you feel better if I called you a nerd? Ya know, for the sake of the thread. Even though I believe you are right and we (meaning Warriors in general) need a good boost to our self healing skills.
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09-28-2013, 04:17 AMsilentwindfr
my two cents, maybe the warrior need to work with the scholar more, Succor, heal more on a warrior and if you critical it can give him a really nice boost of mitigation. (2 times the amount healed, that can be pretty high)
however i'm sure the warrior need some love that sure. -
09-28-2013, 05:25 AMHachikoAssuming you mean Adloquium, it is more effective on a Paladin.Quote:
Originally Posted by silentwindfr
Yes, the heal and shield will both be smaller, but the damage reduction will make up for that.
Boss does 200 DMG (160 to PLD)
Succor heals for for 100 and places a shield of 100
PLD gets 100 heals and 100 shield.
WAR gets 115 heals and 115 shield.
After hit #1
PLD at -160 Health
WAR at -200 Health
After Adloquium #1
PLD at -60 Health +100 Shield
WAR at -85 Health +115 Shield
After Hit #2
PLD at -120 Health
WAR at -170 Health
After Adloquium #2
PLD at -20 Health +100 Shield
WAR at -55 Health +115 Shield
After Hit #3
PLD at -80 health
WAR at -140 health.
After Adloquiun #3
PLD at Full Health (20 overheal) +100 Shield (assuming you get full shield from overheal)
WAR at -40 Health +115 Shield
The point of this exercise is to illustrate that all other things being held equal, Adloquium is more effective on a PLD than a WAR. -
09-28-2013, 05:30 AMRios-Drakoon
with my ideas, Paladin is still the Better MT for hard hitting bosses like Titan HM, but at least we are not such a burden for healer like we are now.
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09-28-2013, 05:59 AMHirosashi
I see no fault in your logic here it all makes sense, the only thing that would be bad is honestly the blood bath, the 3% max hp per hit needs to be a trait thing, as paladins can use bloodbath to so it needs to remain the way it is for us, less we would benefit far to much from it <- thats being 100% honest a 3% hp heal for use on attacks would be broken.
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09-28-2013, 06:24 AMRios-Drakoon
Paladin can have the 1% verion. xD
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09-28-2013, 06:28 AMJediman
"So at least, give Warrior the same Chance, give him the Selfheal what he Need, to to his Job and not to make Healer lifes harder."
I still don't get it why people are comparing paladin tank to warrior dps?
Was War a dps in Final fantasy XI ? if yes then you got your answer I would like to see the damage output for the war to increase. -
09-28-2013, 06:41 AMHachikoCan WAR use DPS armor or Queue as DPS in the Duty Finder?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediman
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09-28-2013, 07:10 AMJedimanSo your trying to say it should be like a paladin?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hachiko
We got more and more idiots trying to make war class a tank class now...
War are good for low level Duty Finders but sucks at high end ones its a fact. -
09-28-2013, 07:18 AMRios-DrakoonSo it seems you are a Paladinfanboy who think "The only Tank in the game should be Paladin"....Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediman
So, what about Whitemage and Scholar? both are HEALER right?
Warrior is a TANK CLASS, it has a TANK COMBO, and a TANK STANCE, Overpower our AoE has Increased enmity so ist a TANK ABILITIE
you see, WARRIOR IS A TANK. this is not FFXIV 1.0. This is FFXIV ARR
WAR is a Tank, but the gap between Paladin and Warrior is way to big.
And just info... Warrior can join Duty finder ONLY as Tank
so, learn it... WARRIOR IS A TANK -
09-28-2013, 07:22 AMJediman
If WARRIOR are TANK why do they suck high end duty finder (I handy see any...) then comparing to all final fantasy games.
Whitemage and Scholar
you will find out WHM are better at healing high end compare to scholar. -
09-28-2013, 07:32 AMRios-DrakoonPaladin is a tank who reduce incoming dmg (thats what he does)Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediman
Warrior is a Tank who conter incoming dmg with Selfheal (thats what it should be, but our selfheal sucks, Blame SE for that)
And what you mean with "Comparing all FF games?"
FFXI Warrior was Tank, then Ninja and Paladin get in game with Addons, Warrior could Switch to DD then.
In FFXIV there is no switching between DD or Tank.
Pls, read the skills from Warrior, then you see, he has alot Tank abilities.
Because SE did a bad work, Warrior are underpowerd, thats why alot "Ex-Warrior" reroll on Paladin now.
And about WHM and SCH, WHM maybee can make the bigger heals, SCH has Absorbshields and thats also pretty nice. -
09-28-2013, 07:39 AMJediman"FFXI Warrior was Tank, then Ninja and Paladin get in game with Addons, Warrior could Switch to DD then."Quote:
Originally Posted by Rios-Drakoon
You will find that war is a Dps in final fantasy XI and I understand that it has tank traits but what SE needs to do is scarp that turn it to a dps because thats what it is.
This is reminding me of Dark knight in Final fantasy XI -
09-28-2013, 07:47 AMRios-Drakoon
like i said, in FFXI you could Change. in FFXIV you CAN NOT Change.
Warrior is a Tank, even his AF armor is a Tank armor, his first Abilitie with lvl30 was Tank Stance. and so on and so on...
I know, you and alot other Paladin would like to be the only and only one Tank Class.
Sorry to disapoint you, Warrior is a Tank class, and til Garuda HM no Problem, once you hit Titan HM, then a Paladin is alot better as Tank then Warrior. but like i said, Warrior and Paladin are not balanced, the Gap is way to big.
SE should (and im pretty sure, they will) Buff Warrior.
Even if Yoshi said something like "L2P", he cant say "yes guys, we will Buff Warrior soon"... if he did, alot Paladin would get "inrage" in Forum, and flame. -
09-28-2013, 11:59 AMShurrikhan
Clever timing on Inner Beast can actually keep you alive for a surprisingly long time, often enough to stay alive as an unhealed OT or finish the last of a fight MTing with all healers dead. This is not true of HM Primal fights, of course, but in those fights your bonus health is often the difference between nuke heals necessary and an already dead Paladin if he doesn't hit Sentinel / Rampart in time. I have no parsed data to show Warrior as being an equally good MT as Paladin, but that has been my experience. I've yet to see a Warrior unable to do, overall, what a Paladin can. I will fully admit to the difference in healing consumption though.
In either case though, I'll agree that any relatively flat value self-heals are going to become more and more useless as we reach higher level content. Each point of strength increases our Inner Beast healing by at most 9 points. Worthless.
To take an old example though, Aegis Boon (I'm pretty sure that was the name) from 1.x, that would actually see better use as mob damage increases because the healing increased with the value of damage mitigated by the guaranteed block on the next attack. Something like that might help quite a bit.
To use another WoW example: early Death Strike have healing based on Attack Power, similar enough to IB's damage-dealt dependency (which then includes our buffs and slashing resistance debuff), while later restored a portion of health lost in the last 3 seconds. For mob-grinding the later was at first nearly-worthless, but in incredibly hard-hitting fights it actually outdid the early version for healing done.
That's pretty much how this goes though. If something's being balanced through its conditionality, then your options are limited.
For example:
Scale by your HP - High Vit-stat dependency, and still does not protect you from bosses who special-hit for 80% of your health.
Scale by damage dealt - AP-dependency, requires you to build buffs and damage taken debuffs.
Scale by damage taken - worthless when taking little damage.
I'd recommend just building from an internal system that you find to be fun and warrior-like and then just seeing what you can do from there based on the spread in tool-frequency you want (Bloodbath, Inner Beast, Storm's Path, etc, etc).
In terms of specific suggestions:
- 3% (36+% total over half minute), 10%, and even 30% of hp are not going to make Warrior more viable MTs for the fights we're hard-pressed on. I'd like to see all of these be more useful, but switching to health-scaling doesn't necessarily improve our situation. Of course, anything more than this may be considered quite OP, since block values are fairly low, giving Paladin a 20% [Rampart], 30% [Sentinel], and >15% (probably closer to 10%) [Bulwark] damage reduction. So frankly I'm a bit stumped.
On just a personal preference, I'd prefer for these things to remain roughly damage-based but with improvements in the tanking position, allowing the Warrior to also function as a sort tank-ready self-sufficient-healing DPS. And that is mostly because that is what the job is portrayed as. There's plenty of suggestions that could go along with improving that niche, but that's for elsewhere.
A power comparison:
30% of a HM Titan's 5k blow would be around 1.5k, but is accessed only 1/18th of the time (10s per 180), and is unlikely to finish its cooldown at an ideal timing. Conversely, a 30% IB on a 7k Warrior would bring in 2.1k (about the same as the remaining *effective* health saved by Sentinel and Shield Oath) every 7-8 moves, or 17.5 to 20 seconds (+ a free extra such heal every minute). At that point already Warrior would basically outdo Paladin, minus the absolute save of Hallowed Ground.
I'm sorry to have wandered so much in my line of thought.
Conclusion:
All this might help, but it's really just a matter of scaling the healing to some level of effective health saved/refreshed similar to Paladin levels. Switching to health scaling reduces tanking use of all but Vitality and also isolates our Maim, Storm's Eye, Berserk, and Unchained abilities from our tanking tools. I can already self-heal for around 3k on a Berserk Inner Beast critical strike with Maim and Storm's Eye up. But losing those tools would reduce fine play possible for the class by taking away our means of preparation and emergency variation. I'd rather see our healing raised a different way.
Smaller points of preference:
- Bloodbath effect greatly increased, at least when under Defiance. I'd actually like to see the ability better integrated into all parts of the class, but 30 per 90 seconds of lowish self-healing isn't too bad; it just ought not be so pathetic outside of AoE spamming.
- Storm's Path roughly equal or greater in healing to the bonus healing granted by Storm's Eye over its duration (15s). I'd like that to be around ~200, but that would place self-healing from Bloodthirst over 15 seconds of single-target dps as around 2k, which is probably too high. Alternatively, Storm's Path could be used in favor of the main enmity string [Heavy, Skull, Butcher] (more often than every other (SE full-upkeep) or every third (Maim full-upkeep)), but then that should come at cost of enmity. If self-healing other than by spells generates threat, then a 300-hp heal would likely come quite close already to the bonus enmity provided by the enmity string.
I don't want to throw WoW into this again, but one thing that game has had over our jobs is that their classes often had much more intricate job/class mechanics (especially when spec-variance is included), such as through combo points, runes, etc, while Wrath, Umbral Ice/Astral Fire, and Stances often un-immediate and under-integrated. I feel like Warrior would be one of the best entries into a more job-unique system of tools, ability-layering, etc, as to improve general quality of gameplay from auto-attack, 1,2,3 auto-attack, and buff upkeep, if SE were ever willing. -
09-28-2013, 01:54 PMRios-Drakoon
your right, with my Ideas some abilities like Berserk and Co. would getting useless unless for Aggro Push. (i like to start Boss giht with "unchained and berserk" .. ok i have only Ifrit Axe, maybee with Relic ist not neccesary.
If SE would put a Buff on our Defiance Tank Stance, like "Selfhealing Increased by 300%" or something, with that i could life. and About Inner beast, sorry, i dont Count Crits, they are nice to have, but when you Need a Crit, you never get it xD
But i think we agree in onething, Our selfheal Need a Buff.