perhaps we aren't using warrior properly?

excuse my bad grammar, but this post got me thinking

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Originally Posted by Makeda

When people said the class was weak, Yoshi, in more polite words, told them to "L2P":

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y; Earlier today, I was told by a player that Warriors are weaker than Paladins
y; They are harder to play
f; It’s more technical
y; You need to bring in a lot of the the additional (skills?) to get it fully out
y; But really, in development team, warrior are really strong, and it’s more stable
y; So right now it looks like Paladins can hold the enmity and tank, however
y; honestly Warriors are really strong.
y; Players haven’t researched enough so I would like players who are up for a challenge to stand up and play.
y; We the development team really recommend Warriors

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http://gamerescape.com/2013/09/20/tg...h-translation/

I suspect that the devs feel the current crop of warriors and those healing them are doing it all wrong. Probably because too many people are trying to boost mitigation instead of self-healing.

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perhaps the devs are correct and we,the community, havent found the proper way to truly ultizied war tanks. after all, alot of players keep assuming that we should try to mold the war damage mitigation like the pld instead in a completely different way. instead of the community waiting for the devs to do something, maybe we should take it upon ourselves to find a new way to reduce damage for war via cross skills.

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Originally Posted by Makeda

folks need to stop trying to play a shieldless paladin, and go play a warrior - IF after doing that it stil comes back weak, Yoshi might pay more attention.

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indeed

i think we should stop trying to build the warrior as a shield tank, but maybe as a absorption tank ?

show devs playing level 50/HM primal battles with warriors, and i'll believe there's nothing wrong with warriors. yes, warriors are strong up until they hit hard mode... after that, it all goes down the drain.

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Originally Posted by thinkmad

show devs playing level 50/HM primal battles with warriors, and i'll believe there's nothing wrong with warriors. yes, warriors are strong up until they hit hard mode... after that, it all goes down the drain.

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Ok. May I ask you (and in extension every lvl 50 war) what cross skills are you using currently? Let start there to see what exactly leading to war downfall in endgame content such as bahamut coil.

Agree 100% People continuously take War's self heals out of the equation 'because cooldowns' (lolwut? IB>infuriate>IB>vengeance>debuffcombo>berserk>crossclass?>IB, rinse repeat) and conveniently go the exact opposite when talking about Pld.

What's this we the community? Don't go speaking for me about your lack of ability to play a warrior, my warrior kicks ass and I like it just the way it is. Just because you can't figure it out doesn't mean it's broken.

The problem I think is mostly what people are used to and seeing -20% damage and assuming that is better than 25% hp. Let’s take a look at some examples:

Let’s say both Pal and War have 10,000 hp (number picked for simple math). They are both about to take a 5,000 point attack. The paladin has -20% damage from shield stance while the warrior has +25% hp, taking his total to 12,500.
Now the Pal takes the 5k hit – 1k for the 20% damage reduction and is left with a total of 6k hp. (10k-4k)
The War takes the 5k with no extra mitigation and is left with 7,500.

So in this case with no cool downs used the Warrior is left with more HP and in a better spot to take more damage than the Paladin. But let’s take a look at what would happen if the paladin could block this damage.

Let’s assume he blocks 25% of the damage with his shield. Thus, 5k hit -1k from Shield stance leaves 4k, -25% from shield block leaves 3k hp. So the Paladin then takes 3k damage and has 7k hp left which still puts the warrior in a better spot.

Now you can start to figure in Cool downs, which both tanks have but the paladin has more useful cool downs but the warrior has abilities to self-heal which many neglect to look at. I will go into this more in a later post when I have some more spare time.

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Originally Posted by Ryker77

The problem I think is mostly

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People just need to stop thinking of both classes just being tank and played the same way. There are ways to play both classes and get similar outcomes. If they were meant to be played the same they would combine to make one tank class instead of 2 classes.

Thats because War self-heals isnt that great. you have to stack 3 buffs (one of which causes you to have 5 seconds without skills), and then use 3 abilities to be able to get inner beast to heal for a decent amount. ive gotten it up to about 2.2k. then you can invigorate and then do it again. This is nice, but it takes like 15-20 seconds to do all of this, it isnt an emergency thing.

And then there is storms path. you have to use 3 attacks, to heal for about 110. which isnt that much when you have 7400hp. especially considering in the time it takes you to heal 110dmg, in a BEST case scenario has done 2 auto attacks for about 800 a piece. In that rough example, your heal reduces auto attack damage by 5%? Chances are youve eaten an attack for 1-2k as well.

Self heals are nice, but aside from the extremely long inner best combo, its practically nonexistant.

edit: my cross skills are. flash, provoke, internal release, second wind and.... uh.. convalecense

i dont have TOO much trouble on anything weaker than titan since i have such a large HP pool to give healers some wiggle room, but i feel like PLD is a damage mitigation tank, and war is a self healing tank, and while pld has abilities and a shield to pump of def and reduce lots of damage, war's heals alone dont take much stress off of the healers in tough situations. Storms path needs to heal at least 300-400.

pld removes stress from healers by needing cures less often, war needs heals just as fast, but for alot more of them to top off, which i feel adds stress to healers.

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Originally Posted by Mishakai

What's this we the community? Don't go speaking for me about your lack of ability to play a warrior, my warrior kicks ass and I like it just the way it is. Just because you can't figure it out doesn't mean it's broken.

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Ok, you are misunderstanding what I'm trying to do here.what I'm trying to do is to see what crosskills are war tanks are using. Because as of now a lot of pugs/FCs/etc is passing on war tanks for pld because apparently war seem to have trouble in endgame content such as bahamut coils. If this thread seem like I'm questioning your competence as a tank, its not; however, if I'm if implying thru some means , then I'm sorry for any offense. I just want to know how to help war tank from being obsolete by the community standards.


Btw what cross kills are you guys are using? We can start there to see what can be improved.

I've not had issues so far but then again I've not done any HM primals yet, I look forward to seeing how I'll shape up in them.

Read some of the threads in the Tanking Forums. It's not that Warriors are weak or incapable of end game content that is the issue. The issue is that they require more constant, undivided attention from the healers in comparison to the paladin tanks because of the overall lack of mitigation. It takes more mana intensive for a healer to keep a Warrior tank up than a Paladin. Read those threads. Why would a group want to bring a tank that takes more damage and requires more healing over a tank that doesn't?

Warrior seems to be more influenced by gear than a Paladin. The really geared WARs that I've seen are monsters in a fight. Fights/healing can be tuned so that it's okay that a WAR doesn't have 20% DR.

I just think people see how easy it is 2 tank as a PLD and as a WAR it takes more then face smashing your keybored in order to be good at it( but thats just what i've came to from reading post)

I only have experience with Mrd and Gld in the first 3 dungeons, but near as I could tell, the biggest difference was that while I could borrow Flash on Mrd, Mrd definitely doesn't have the mp to spam Flash like I used to on Gld. More often than not I use it as an opener but I'm finding it more prudent to hit the group with that cone shaped aoe and then hitting each one in turn with Skull Splitter (in the skill chain, of course). I obviously have a long way to go, but right from the start I learned that Marauder plays quite a bit differently from Gladiator. If it didn't, why even have Marauder?

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Originally Posted by mythicrose

Read some of the threads in the Tanking Forums. It's not that Warriors are weak or incapable of end game content that is the issue. The issue is that they require more constant, undivided attention from the healers in comparison to the paladin tanks because of the overall lack of mitigation. It takes more mana intensive for a healer to keep a Warrior tank up than a Paladin. Read those threads. Why would a group want to bring a tank that takes more damage and requires more healing over a tank that doesn't?

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I'm very far from endgame to care about these issues, but if Warriors do more damage than Paladins, that's reason enough to bring one along.

By additional I really think they were trying to make a point in the scholar quest line. Why would you emphasize the importance of the synergy between scholar and warrior so much if there wasn't something in it? From what I've seen so far the job/class quests do try to point you in the right direction in how you play a certain class/job so I doubt the scholar quest line is an exception.

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Originally Posted by Artamie

By additional I really think they were trying to make a point in the scholar quest line. Why would you emphasize the importance of the synergy between scholar and warrior so much if there wasn't something in it? From what I've seen so far the job/class quests do try to point you in the right direction in how you play a certain class/job so I doubt the scholar quest line is an exception.

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Actually this is a good point.....perhaps scholars healers (which btw are the least used healer in the game for some reason) are simply more suited for war tanks
. After all most endgame combo is see is pld and whm. So maybe the issue has more to do with the type of healer that is group with the war tank?

I disagree on the healing issue. I find that the Warrior over the paladin gives me much more time to react to incoming damage and get a heal off. I believe people perceive the paladin as easier to heal as they have a smaller HP pool and thus their heals appear to be healing for more. I have healed both a warrior and a paladin on HM titan and Coil and if I had to choose I would say the warrior was the easier of the two to keep alive. My main issues for the two tanks is not their ability to survive and hold agro but on their utility. The paladin currently shines the most due to his ability to interrupt abilities when needed, all by himself, while the warrior requires a bard, monk, dragoon, smn to assist in interrupting the spells while his ability is on cooldown. IF the warrior stun would have its cooldown removed and brought on line with the paladin stun I think we would see a lot less of the war is not as good threads.

I haven't done any binding coil; however, I have done everything up to that including beating Titan HM.

I have a Scholar and a White Mage both of whom I use regularly for healing. I do purely maintank healing on my scholar and I have to say I MUCH MUCH prefer to heal a warrior than to heal a paladin on my scholar.

This Warrior complaining really boggles my mind to be honest. I think it's from all these theorycrafters who don't really know what they're talking about.

I lustrate three times every 45ish seconds on my Scholar. The sheer difference in HP from the warrior compared to paladin makes healing that much easier when your best main tank heal is based on the tanks max health %.

On the topic with Storm’s end heal. I concur that this skill needs a little tweaking. It would be nice if the attack did either a flat % of your total HP (such as 5%) healing or would ignore the -25% damage reduction from Defiance. Personally I would prefer to see it heal for a % of total HP in order to see it scale better with gear.

i could definitely live with being able to stun more often. that would be great. over time against certain things, warrior is a better tank, but i think against large spike damage, like 4.5k table flips, pld has the upper hand being able to reduce that without requiring virus

I tend to agree with the playerbase, they did a horrible job with tanks in 1.0 at first as well. (the 1.0 version of job tanks that is)

Bring back healing steel cyclone :D that would be awesome.. but really all i would ask is for is foresight to be a damage reduction or something. I dont ever see a noticeable difference even though its adding about 200 def. Or it could hold true to its name and automatically parry a couple of attacks. and for storm's path to heal something reasonable, or remove it from the 3 stage combo.

Personally I believe SE should address ALL Class/Job concerns when they release 2.1. Why settle for small patches/hotfixs when they can release a big patch that addresses all the issues?

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

I'm very far from endgame to care about these issues, but if Warriors do more damage than Paladins, that's reason enough to bring one along.

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Actually in the tanking forums it has been said that paladin and warrior do about the same level of damage.

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Originally Posted by Blindfate

Personally I believe SE should address ALL Class/Job concerns when they release 2.1. Why settle for small patches/hotfixs when they can release a big patch that addresses all the issues?

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Because the more things that get changed at once, the easier it is to unbalance things, especially when the different things being changed interact with each other.

What level of gear were the dev's using when they compare warrior to paladin? Full darklight with Relic? AF+1? regular AF?

If the war is really strong when geared i'd buy the statements made by Yoshi P, but what about when your doing the HM primals for the first time and are still using a few bits of AF? You can do that as a pally, company weapon, AF outfit, maybe the darklight belt, you can tank that, can a war say the same? can the devs really say the same in that gear? Yoshi's statement is far too vague.

A tanking class that doesn't become usable in a raid until after they get the gear from said raid is not a balanced class.

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Originally Posted by reality_check

I lustrate three times every 45ish seconds on my Scholar. The sheer difference in HP from the warrior compared to paladin makes healing that much easier when your best main tank heal is based on the tanks max health %.

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Good point!

So from what I see so far the big things for warrior are:


-Lustrate which heals 20% of hp up to 3x per 45 sec

-Fey Light which "Increases skill speed of self and nearby party members by 30% for 30s" (60s cool-down). There's also one for spell speed the scholar can apply to themselves. It could be just me but I feel like I see more scholars using Eos as default which helps with survivability more so warriors probably don't get hit with it as much as they may have been intended?

-Wrath V under Defiance (-25% dmg output but also reduces damage received by 25%) (adding 10% crit and 15% heal potency) and gear for crit bonus

-Other stuff such as bloodbath, berserk, mantra, internal release, and second wind to improve potency of stuff above and boosting inner beast for occasional self-heal which can be followed up with an Infuriate to replenish the Wrath stack.

This is all purely speculation though. Can crit help offset the -25% damage reduction? Feel free to tear it apart!

Question: what is Unchained good for?

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Originally Posted by thinkmad

show devs playing level 50/HM primal battles with warriors, and i'll believe there's nothing wrong with warriors. yes, warriors are strong up until they hit hard mode... after that, it all goes down the drain.

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The primal battles aren't the problem. Coil is. Have the devs tested Warriors with Coil?

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Originally Posted by reality_check

I have a Scholar and a White Mage both of whom I use regularly for healing. I do purely maintank healing on my scholar and I have to say I MUCH MUCH prefer to heal a warrior than to heal a paladin on my scholar.
ut.
I lustrate three times every 45ish seconds on my Scholar. The sheer difference in HP from the warrior compared to paladin makes healing that much easier when your best main tank heal is based on the tanks max health %.

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i think there is your answer right there. healers don't know how to correctly heal warriors.
why cast a cure I for example when stoneskin will stop 1.3k damage based on a warrior having 7.5k health
lustrate 3 times every 45 seconds is 1.5k every 45 seconds

Stone skin is a 5 second turn around to recast every time. So maybe healers need to adapt to warrior play not the other way around

Once again, warriors are just different. They require a different play style from the healers and the tank themselves. If you compare only on paper, you're going to miss the key strengths of the warrior job.

On paper, you have to make it as simple as possible. Warriors require 5% more healing, but have at least 25% more health. 95% of the time, that 5% more healing isn't really important... because it simply is not very dangerous or threatening. But, when you look at the points where it is very important, you have a skill that provides 1-2k HP instantly; and, which you can usually apply at such times back to back for up to 4k healing done in a pinch. Because in tanking endgame right now it is ALL about those critical short period of time where you face any danger at all. Utilizing these heals with the right timing can make it nearly impossible to kill you under most circumstances.

Warrior is a VERY strong tank in endgame, but most of you don't understand this because you haven't been there.

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Originally Posted by oneshot

I just think people see how easy it is 2 tank as a PLD and as a WAR it takes more then face smashing your keybored in order to be good at it( but thats just what i've came to from reading post)

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they play the exact same

you have your 1-2-3 threat combo, and you have a different button for aoe threat.

you have your ranged attack

that's it.

the only real difference is as a paladin you have to know when that big hit is coming, and pop a defensive cooldown preemptively

warriors just soak the big hit and inner beast after

the real difference that makes warriors 'harder' is healing them, but that has nothing to do with the guy playing the tank.

To any of the WARs running coil...

Do any of you use Awareness from Gladiator?

"Nullifies chance of suffering critical damage." 15 sec duration

Seems like a good skill to pull over, but just checking on real world results first.

I've been working my way down the Paladin route for a while now, but after reading this thread I feel that I'd rather be a Warrior. I generally chose Paladin because I like sword and shield. Don't get me wrong, I love them great axes also, but I've held the sword and shield combo for a long time. This thread makes Warrior seem like a fun challenge and a road slightly less travelled, let alone a road not travelled as well. I'm going to start leveling Marauder now! Thanks everyone! :D

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Originally Posted by Soulburn32

i think there is your answer right there. healers don't know how to correctly heal warriors.
why cast a cure I for example when stoneskin will stop 1.3k damage based on a warrior having 7.5k health
lustrate 3 times every 45 seconds is 1.5k every 45 seconds

Stone skin is a 5 second turn around to recast every time. So maybe healers need to adapt to warrior play not the other way around

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Because my Cure hits for 1000 on a warrior, has a shorter cast time, and costs half as much mana? WHM already has mana issues*, suggesting constantly casting SS is ridiculously uninformed.

*Not implying its broken, it's part of the class's mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Soulburn32

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Originally Posted by Roaran

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I quoted you both because both of you seem to not understand how effective HP works. Shield Oath and Defiance work out to providing the same effective HP pool. Defiance adds a flat 25% HP boost while Shield Oath lowers all damage taken by 20% meaning your HP is equivalent to 1/.8 = 1.25 > a 25% boost to effective HP. Stoneskin has the same effectiveness regardless of whether its on a WAR or a PLD because while a WARs stoneskin has a higher value, PLD's stoneskin will last longer since he is receiving less damage.

The problem with Inner Beast usage is you can only guarantee back to back usage every minute. Pretty much all high end bosses use their big hits more often than once a minute. Here is another problem, Thrill of Battle provides another 20% boost to your max HP and also heals it, so obviously I should use that after a big hit. Well Thrill of Battle increases effective HP by 20% and only lasts 10 seconds and has a 2 minute recast. Let's take a look at PLDs Rampart which they receive the enhanced version of at level 14. Enhanced Rampart reduces all damage taken by 20% and lasts 20s with a 90s recast. Here is where the fun begins. %DR gives better increasing returns than %HP boosts do. Assuming Thrill of battle works off of our Defiance HP (pretty sure it does) we get a total of 1.25*1.2=1.5 > 25% boost to effective HP for 10s every 2 minutes. Rampart further reduces damage taken by 20% for a total of 40% for 20s every 90s. 1/.6 = ~1.67 for a 42% boost to effective HP. %DR also has the added benefit of increasing the value of Cures cast on you since it only increases effective HP not max HP. The problem lies in that PLD has more tools to mitigate the big hits than WAR does, not only in effect but also in usability. Wrath needs to provide more Healing Boost and Wrath stacks need to be acquired faster in order for our Self Heals to mean anything.