Paladin Guide, Why Enmity and Shield Oath Are Broken Currently

http://ventusinvictus.blogspot.com/2...din-guide.html

I have delayed posting info for a month on Enmity testing because there are factors I just cannot account for.

In small detail, I generate more threat than my lalafel friend (and we aren't talking a sliver on the threat meter, we are talking 25% or so).

Same Items, no Buffs, switching who takes swing, different abilities.

He had to have 21 STR more than I in order take hate over me using the same actions.

This baseline issue has occured with multiple races, even my own race.

I believe it may be related to some RNG factor on the character, the god we choose, birthdate, some other stat.

Please review the testing and find an error, otherwise SE has screwed the pooch hard.

Bumping because it's a shame this doesn't have people talking.

Very interesting. Bumping because I want to see if Square addresses these findings as "Statistically Significant".

I'm not understanding what is happening in the "Testing" section.... did one person pull by flashing? both flashing? any auto-attacks used? if you're just walking up to aggro did the aggro go on the first person, or immediately jump to the second every time without auto-attacking? full rotations on all mobs?

...maybe it is obvious to most, but after looking at the section it wasn't quite clear to me what was actually happening to you guys, other than mobs do not like cat tails :P

just took a look at the pics

didnt read your blog much

just want to say

i think

the extra enmity provided by shield oath doesnt necessarily mean it will let you generate more hate with it than without.

its there because it is to counter the output dmg you lost from dmg reduction effect you get from shield oath.

So Paladin's are now saying their class is broken? I love it lol.

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Originally Posted by The_Brute

So Paladin's are now saying their class is broken? I love it lol.

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Oh, he's not saying they class is broken. He's saying one of their abilities looks like it's not functioning consistently or as intended, aka broken. There's nothing wrong with that.

Yes Yes keep get SE attention

So they can revamp (rebalanced) Tank rolls

Keep get SE attention man!

You know what's under powered about Paladin's? A stun move that is on GCD. WTF?!

You say you tested this with someone else with the same race and gear?
Did you always out-threat that person, too?
If yes to both, could you try this again, but instead give lead to the other person?

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

Oh, he's not saying they class is broken. He's saying one of their abilities looks like it's not functioning consistently or as intended, aka broken. There's nothing wrong with that.

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Just going to quote this as some people can't seem to grasp that a possibly bugged or broken skill is not the same as complaining about a class being broken/useless.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

Oh, he's not saying they class is broken. He's saying one of their abilities looks like it's not functioning consistently or as intended, aka broken. There's nothing wrong with that.

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Not just that, read more closely. It looks like Enmity as a whole is broken. Even with the same stats, Ventus is getting a considerable amount of threat over his buddy PLD.

Should also note neither of them had Shield Oath.

Wow some people have reading comprehension issues lol.

We we're trying to test Shield Oath initially, decided results must be skewed so we did a baseline test (no buffs).

We alternated who attacked first, we made our stats as similar as possible (pretty much identical, same str/potency/det/acc/crit/etc), we tested multiple skills and buffs. I always generate more hate than Tagg. We can't explain it and hope other people can find an error so we know SE hasn't fucked up big time.

Also, tried this all a couple weeks back with a seeker of the sun miqo'te, like myself, same results.

Did you choose Halone as your god Ventus?

Azemya the Warden, Tagg's is Halone.

Ok was just wondering if something as small as that might be affecting it.

Wow. So this game is racist? *Rimshot*

This is a really good break down, thanks for your work Ventus. It's a shame the board is so dominated with WAR concerns atm, that this is getting somewhat glossed over.

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Originally Posted by Ventusinvictus

Azemya the Warden, Tagg's is Halone.

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It might seem insane, but did you try it on different sprites, etc.? Could it be the elemental stats are somehow affecting enmity generation?

Could I toss out a crazy theory that maybe the "double eminty" is actually just there to balance the 20% damage reduction.

Essentially it is giving you 20% damage reduction while still maintaining your threat level you would have without the 20% reduction.

It could be the translation is misleading and the skill is actually giving you:
20% damage you take reduction for trading in a 20% damage output reduction. And the "double eminty" is a loose translation for keeping your hate generation the same as if you were still dealing 100% of your damage output.

unfortunately I think the goal of this post is lost in translation. This really has nothing to do with shield oath and everything to do with a pure baseline test of equal chars using exactly the same rotation of skills but 1 person has a set amount more enmity than the other. To Vindictus: you really need to better quantify the exact amount of enmity difference between the tests. like:

When we both use flash I get (700enmity but my testing partner gets 650 enmity) I think its safe to assume 1 point of dmg is 1 point of enmity and also its been shown prior that enmity does not dissapate. Use weathered broken weapons to reduce dmg from AA to as close to 1 point each as possible. You put in so much time on this why not apply real numbers to your findings?

This thread isn't about Shield Oath. We know it was changed to basically generate the same threat as if you didn't have it on. It gives you 20% DR and that's it.

This thread is about why two PLDs with the exact same stats are generating vastly different amounts on enmity on the same target.

Ok well then the sample size was not large enough to justify that claim.

You would need to test across multiple ingame days, multiple ingame targets. ect ect to make sure.


I think maybe some of FFXI is possibly at play here. During certain in game days or months some spells and abilities would be stronger.

Maybe if the in game day/month matches up with your chosen ones your abilities are stronger.

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Originally Posted by Ventusinvictus

http://ventusinvictus.blogspot.com/2...din-guide.html

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Just curious, as I may have missed it reading over the blog, but did you take into consideration of the Initial Enmity gained from agro. I can't say for sure how much is given or if it's a temporary Enmity bonus, but I have noticed it's a bit more difficult to reign in hate when someone aside from the tank gets agro/pulls.

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Originally Posted by Soulburn32

Ok well then the sample size was not large enough to justify that claim.

You would need to test across multiple ingame days, multiple ingame targets. ect ect to make sure.


I think maybe some of FFXI is possibly at play here. During certain in game days or months some spells and abilities would be stronger.

Maybe if the in game day/month matches up with your chosen ones your abilities are stronger.

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The sample size is plenty large. It's abundantly clear that there is some sort of hidden mechanic skewing the results. The point is that we have no idea what that is. And secondarily, why does it exist in the first place? Two players of the same class with the same stats should be functionally identical.

Just curious if anyone has tested the effect of MND on flash. it's white magic, and white magic is generally affected by MND.

this would help explain why flash is so pisspoor on WAR.

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Originally Posted by PessimiStick

The sample size is plenty large. It's abundantly clear that there is some sort of hidden mechanic skewing the results. The point is that we have no idea what that is. And secondarily, why does it exist in the first place? Two players of the same class with the same stats should be functionally identical.

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I can only go off what is in the blog, every screen shot is of a Lightning Sprite, and all within a reasonably close time to to each other. That is hardly a large sample size to outright say eminty is broken across the entire game.

"Broken" is an interesting term for "nerfed." Defiance/Shield Oath were nerfed in P4, the 2x enmity was super overpowered. Now they simply make up for the damage penalty - IE: You generate the same enmity in Shield Oath/Defiance as you do outside of them!

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Originally Posted by Onisake

Just curious if anyone has tested the effect of MND on flash. it's white magic, and white magic is generally affected by MND.

this would help explain why flash is so pisspoor on WAR.

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Flash scales with strength, nothing else. It's pretty good for both tanks.

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Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

Just curious, as I may have missed it reading over the blog, but did you take into consideration of the Initial Enmity gained from agro. I can't say for sure how much is given or if it's a temporary Enmity bonus, but I have noticed it's a bit more difficult to reign in hate when someone aside from the tank gets agro/pulls.

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Yes, he has taken it into account. They both took turns pulling first and it was always Ventus that had more threat.

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Originally Posted by PessimiStick

The sample size is plenty large. It's abundantly clear that there is some sort of hidden mechanic skewing the results. The point is that we have no idea what that is. And secondarily, why does it exist in the first place? Two players of the same class with the same stats should be functionally identical.

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This man is correct, just because the pictures are only showing a few instances doesn't mean I haven't tested this hours upon hours. Originally I was testing Shield Oath until it dawned on me to do this baseline test. There is something very wrong, and if you read we tried several abilities, who tagged first, order, etc.

There is an unknown factor skewing the results.

Shield Oath enmity its broken when it comes to group mobs +5 because it don't hold hate for shit, only a matter of time when they will own up to it.

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Originally Posted by Ventusinvictus

This man is correct, just because the pictures are only showing a few instances doesn't mean I haven't tested this hours upon hours. Originally I was testing Shield Oath until it dawned on me to do this baseline test. There is something very wrong, and if you read we tried several abilities, who tagged first, order, etc.

There is an unknown factor skewing the results.

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Have you tried what I suggested on the first page?

I wish I had seen this thread before I used a "fantasia" potion to turn into a lalafell :(. I've gone from holding aggro fine to barely holding it. I've asked for the potion back along with another one so I can go lalafell again after they hopefully fix the bug. :mad:

Hi Ventus, something you may not have considered is initial aggro enmity, a phenomenon present in XI and possibly here as well.

You need a third player to claim the mob first, probably with provoke as this should theoretically give no additional threat.

You forgot osmething up there in your list, Latency. But I am sure latency wouldn't affect anything in this game even if it was just minimal spikes /cough Aoe's /cough

I'm getting the sneaking suspicion that this game has hidden modifiers....

I'm very interested in this as well.

I will have to say though, I DO think that shield oath gives you more enmity than just simply compensating for the reduced damage. I was running AK and I couldn't figure out why the DPS were so close to me in terms of enmity. Turns out I had went to sword oath for the Demon Wall fight, and that the 3 or 4 following pulls I didn't switch back to shield oath. When I did turn shield oath back on, the DPS enmity meters were no where even close to me once again.

I have no numbers to back this up, but even if shield oath isn't x2 enmity, it does do at least a little more than simply making up for the reduced damage

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Originally Posted by TommySmiles

I have no numbers to back this up, but even if shield oath isn't x2 enmity, it does do at least a little more than simply making up for the reduced damage

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If it *were* only enough to make up for the damage debuff, a WAR outside of Defiance or a PLD in Sword Oath would end up generating more enmity than a WAR or PLD set up for tanking. That's simply not true. As soon as you go into tank stance, you start generating upwards of double the threat of a tank outside of tank stance using the exact same rotation. The *only* time I've ever had another tank class ride my ass on enmity is when they were using their high enmity rotation *and* they were in tank stance; as soon as they dropped out of said tank stance, their enmity generation plummeted.

Just like to point out that you can test this more easily by using a test dummy. They show enmity bars as well, don't move, don't attack, don't do anything that could skew the results. Also Valk-Dancing Mad provides his methodology for testing enmity. Perhaps try replicating his test and see if you get different results. Also try with different jobs, maybe its just a PLD thing, maybe its a tank thing, maybe its a race thing. Get a control group of data and then start changing a single factor (Job/Race/Role) until you can nail down what exactly is causing the discrepancy.