Which gameplay features actually have "mass appeal" ?

Are NPC quests and Instances really the features that the "masses" enjoy in MMOs? Or is it something else?

The looting of uberequip

I would say content with fun

i would say cash shop and rideable rainbow ponies.. or telletubbies.

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Originally Posted by Felis

I would say content with fun

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I agree with this statement.

I think something that would give the sense of camaraderie and accomplishment as well as something story-driven. Something the escalates, has it's rough patches, has struggle/turmoil, has a pinnacle, and has something that feels like a real conclusion to it.

I think I wore myself out on that roller coaster ride...I better go lie down. =p

xp grinding with chains!!!! *looks around* wh-what?

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Originally Posted by Eldaena

I think something that would give the sense of camaraderie and accomplishment as well as something story-driven. Something the escalates, has it's rough patches, has struggle/turmoil, has a pinnacle, and has something that feels like a real conclusion to it.

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Exactly what this person said.

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Originally Posted by Eldaena

I think something that would give the sense of camaraderie and accomplishment as well as something story-driven. Something the escalates, has it's rough patches, has struggle/turmoil, has a pinnacle, and has something that feels like a real conclusion to it.

I think I wore myself out on that roller coaster ride...I better go lie down. =p

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So..basically what FFXI and Iris offers. This I agree with.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

i would say cash shop and rideable rainbow ponies.. or telletubbies.

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Personally I prefer rideable Twilight Sparkles.

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Originally Posted by Eldaena

I think something that would give the sense of camaraderie and accomplishment as well as something story-driven. Something the escalates, has it's rough patches, has struggle/turmoil, has a pinnacle, and has something that feels like a real conclusion to it.

I think I wore myself out on that roller coaster ride...I better go lie down. =p

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This is why I hope they add something like Campaign from FFXI into FFXIV and really flesh it out and make it better. The idea behind it was right just needed better execution.

If they get it right then it could be truly great and have somethin for everyone casual, hardcore, solo and party.

Basically the game has to be funner than watching TV.

SE does need to hurry up and fix things and get some mandatories implimented (delivery box, ls controls, chocobos etc)

Then work on what they are good at, Story. That is all this game has, it has nothing else unique other than being able to switch classes without rerolling but tbh no one cares about rerolling haha. SE are good at making stories (even if XIV's current is crappy) and when I say stories I also include Cutscenes, which is an obvious score for SE. When they can work full time on content evolved around a story then I think we'll have something good. Otherwise its going to be same old shit for a long time. TERA has its action-adventure no stat driven combat+gameplay, Guildwars has.. destructible/buildable environments and large server fights (idk what else hah), XIV needs something to stand out also. Even all of TERA's cutscenes are voiced, i thought this was going to happen in XIV but it didnt :(

The masses enjoy having everything handed to them with little to no work. Examples: extremely easy instances, questing solo 1-level cap, everything being instanced, high drop rates, 0 respawn times, 0 use for gil or gil being handed to us like candy, crafters being useless so all loot can be high drop rate 0 respawn loot from INSTANCED nms, etc.

This is how MMOs are created now.

I like story based progression, gear that never gets outdated by newer content, no gear resets, long FUN challenging group based leveling(Like 2003 FF11), world dungeons, some instanced content but not having everything instanced, world NMs, crafters making VERY good gear, and taking up the majority "best in slots" for classes, NMs dropping 75% mats to make gear, 25% completed gear that's untradable/unique. I also enjoy challenging and memorable content, the feeling of earning things, the feeling of accomplishment, etc.

Tear-jerking Epic Storylines.

gear that doesnt get outdated is kinda ehhh, i get tired of wearing the same thing all the time, and seeing everyone else wearing the same thing. also i enjoy developing my chr further.
The materia system has some potential though, especially if it allows people to keep specializing gear that they like, with some difficulty of course, but if you really like a certain sets look, and you can make it compete with new gear by boosting it incrementally, that would be hot.

You know more than 50% of MMO players (now a days) don't want a challenge, they want to enter the game get the best items without working for it. Be able to gloat to their friends they have XYZ item etc.

Top 10 Requirements to make a fun MMO that people don't get bored.

#1 Challenge - This really needs to be in the game, there is no reason everything is so squishy. Screw the population that thinks everything should be easily obtainable. Its like real life, if you work harder you are going to get more than someone else.

#2 Improbable to obtain Weapons/Armor - Make some items that are AWESOME something to strive for. Make it take a long time to achieve. This doesn't mean that this would be the only thing to achieve, but something to maybe build/upgrade and ALWAYS something else beyond that if someone achieves this.

#3 Story - Without a good story behind the quests the game feels empty. A plot goes a long ways and can lead up to something great.

#4 Group Events/Play - Without groups and Linkshells, this game will get boring. Start enforcing people must team up to do things. This encourages teamwork and making new friends, along with sharing experiences. This creates experiences people remember

#5 Road Blocks - Blocking/Detouring the ability to grow without finishing XYZ etc... This creates the need to do the Quests and/or other requirements before you can continue to grow. This promotes people gathering to do these quests and/or other requirements.

#6 - New Equipment/Items - Always adding new items/equipment in the game will keep the game fresh for years to come. When a person is stuck with a certain armor/weapon for years it makes the game feel OLD. This gives old and newcomers something to shoot for.

#7 New Areas/Quests/Content - I grouped these together cause they all are equally important with each other. Its important to have new areas to go to, to do new quests and content. Giving new quests in the same old areas still makes those quests feel not as important.

#8 Exploring/Hidden stuff - People love to explore and find out the cool "hidden eggs" in a game, so they can share it with their friends. Having these change every once in awhile and new stuff appear etc, will keep people always hunting for more. The best part of MMO's is sharing your experience with friends in game.

#9 Side Quests - Important for people who have less time, but still want to do some quests. These quests can be simple as kill X and get Y. But shouldn't be limited to that. There are players who prefer this type of quest and there are others who don't.

#10 Music/Graphics - Eye catching things will keep people coming back, boring plain old maps/terrain gets old quickly. So adding new areas and/or changing old terrain by adding items or anything to it, keeps the game appearing fresh.


Lets face it, if you expect handouts you get what you get. But when you work for it, you get what you want. Keep this in mind, hard work should be paid off with better things.

yeah I forgot 1 in the list above...

#11 Sense of Accomplishment - This must be in the game, making you feel like you did something rare or something hard that others have challenges with. This can be as simple as smaller goals too... Just need stuff that makes you feel like you EARNED it.

You forgot number #0 A decent engine and interface. The average player will have some 3 years old mid-range computer, will be used to some intuitive mouse-based interface and probably won't even try to play the game if those conditions are not satisfied.

This won't stop more hardcore people (as they will upgrade their computers and learn even a terrifically bad interface), but this will definitely make the average MMO player run away.

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

The masses enjoy having everything handed to them with little to no work. Examples: extremely easy instances, questing solo 1-level cap, everything being instanced, high drop rates, 0 respawn times, 0 use for gil or gil being handed to us like candy, crafters being useless so all loot can be high drop rate 0 respawn loot from INSTANCED nms, etc.

This is how MMOs are created now..

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[citation needed]

I think AuctionGirl and Nipa nailed it.

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The game needs to be fun.

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That's...vague.

I want to be able to log on for 2 hrs, log off, and feel like I just accomplished something in that 2 hrs. Instances are a good solution to this, but I absolutely loved campaign in XI and think that would be an even better option. But at this point it's hard to complain about new stuff. And I think that the majority of gamers feel this way. Most people don't just pick 1 game and play that game exclusively. Most people like to play a lot of different games and when an MMO becomes so time consuming with tedious, dull tasks people label as "challenging" (when really they're just endurance tests), they don't appeal to "the masses".

NPC quests are more just a standard for MMORPGs, every game has them, so why not? It works for all of the successful MMOs and it's one of those features that people just outright expect, therefor I think they're essential. Even everyone's beloved FFXI had them, only difference was the UI was terrible and didn't label them.

Make boring stuff quick, fast and efficient to not get bored and add fun content that can be challenging and epic.
Memorable stuff to do with people and lots of stuff to achieve/unlock.

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Originally Posted by AuctionGirl

You know more than 50% of MMO players (now a days) don't want a challenge, they want to enter the game get the best items without working for it. Be able to gloat to their friends they have XYZ item etc.

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If this is actually true, it negates half of your statement. But then, I have seen very few people actually say this.

Challenge is subjective, along with sense of fun. Not everyone wants to grit their teeth all the way through their playtime. For an mmo to have mass appeal, it will have varying degrees of challenge in it, with comparative rewards for the level.

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Originally Posted by Chezen

If this is actually true, it negates half of your statement. But then, I have seen very few people actually say this.

Challenge is subjective, along with sense of fun. Not everyone wants to grit their teeth all the way through their playtime. For an mmo to have mass appeal, it will have varying degrees of challenge in it, with comparative rewards for the level.

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I have to agree with you somewhat... what I mean by challenging doesn't mean time consuming at all. There needs to be fun stuff ALL THE WAY to the end, and even more fun stuff AT THE END. You see the problem is... there are no goals, nothing really to feel accomplished, nothing to keep you stuck to the game. You cant make a game too easy for MMO, you will be ending that MMO quickly if its too easy... People get bored quickly and that is why things have to constantly change in a game. If fights took 1-2 minutes each, and you were forced to group, some might have more enjoyment doing parties. If you are playing an MMO to feel accomplished without working towards those accomplishments, then you need to go back to FPS games. Those are quick accomplishments. MMO's are for people who want to be mentally challenged with strategy and understand that sometimes investment of time/effort will get you there quicker.

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Originally Posted by AuctionGirl

I have to agree with you somewhat... what I mean by challenging doesn't mean time consuming at all. There needs to be fun stuff ALL THE WAY to the end, and even more fun stuff AT THE END. You see the problem is... there are no goals, nothing really to feel accomplished, nothing to keep you stuck to the game. You cant make a game too easy for MMO, you will be ending that MMO quickly if its too easy... People get bored quickly and that is why things have to constantly change in a game. If fights took 1-2 minutes each, and you were forced to group, some might have more enjoyment doing parties. If you are playing an MMO to feel accomplished without working towards those accomplishments, then you need to go back to FPS games. Those are quick accomplishments. MMO's are for people who want to be mentally challenged with strategy and understand that sometimes investment of time/effort will get you there quicker.

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I do see what you are saying, but I don't think that's completely true. If people enjoy, really enjoy, what they are doing, they will do it more than once. How many times do people ride the same roller coaster, or see the same movie? Are they doing that for the reward at the end, or the fun during?

Working really hard at something for several minutes or more might feel accomplishing, but there's less chance you'd want to do it again (Of course, that's subjective too). Especially if your sole reason for doing it was for the reward. If you simply enjoy the fight, or whatever else the content it is, then you have a larger chance of wanting to do it again.

This is not to say that a sense of accomplishment isn't important in a game, but a game that can get people to want to do the same content over and over, I think that would be a successful game, mmo or console.

You cant tell me that if the game changes constantly and there was always a challenge... Wouldn't be interesting? Wouldn't it keep you attached to the game wanting to figure out the next "puzzle" or trying to be the first one to do the next big thing? How about if mobs didnt have such a simple attack pattern, but adjusted difficulty by how many members, strategy used and/or weapons/class types etc... Yes this is more work for SE, but more work usually equals more challenge and more enjoyment.

The reason why people keep playing FPS games is because the battle/tactics aren't the same every time.
The reason why people keep playing RTS games is because the battle/tactics aren't the same every time.

So why would an Fantasy MMO not be the same thing? Battles/Tactics need to change constantly, there needs to be more challenges ahead. There needs to be caps and roadblocks preventing you from getting these challenges without working to get there. (this is why to grind) Lets face it... grinding is always work, but if you know when you get to X, you get to be able to do Y, and Y is fun... but then once you finish Y a few times... you grind towards the new X and then you can do Z... this needs to repeat indefinitely. This keeps new goals always coming in, new challenges.

Also another thing, Battle strategy should be different every fight you have... Mobs should not have a simple "Attack", "Attack", "Special Skill", "Attack", "Attack" etc... very predictable... you know exactly how to fight this every time and can plan ahead. You need mobs to link with others, more aggro, challenging strategies, maybe mobs get more defense and HP if you attack them with a larger party, maybe if you have 6 archers attacking it.. it gets some Piercing buffs making archers not as strong towards them... We need more "puzzles" with content, fighting mobs etc... Lets reference FFXI for a moment here... When you were partying at ~ rank 10-15 area in Valkurm Dunes or another Area... The battles lasted at least 45 seconds or longer and that was even with a good party. You looked forward to trying to kill as many as fast as possible for the exp chain bonus, and the mobs weren't as "simple" as almost any mob in FFXIV is.

I didn't say it wouldn't be interesting, I just said it's not necessarily true that all people would get bored of it. Monopoly hasn't changed for 50 years (or whatever). People still play it. What you or I or someone else finds boring, can be very fun to someone else.

I personally don't care for extreme mechanic tactics myself, although some for variety is good. Once you learn what to do to avoid the mechanic, it's just a timing issue. I see them more as gimics than true test of skill. You study the book, you know how to beat it.

I have a healer style play, and I prefer monsters that keep me having to constantly and quickly adjust my tactics, while near on the brink of disaster the whole time. Because of this, I can find enjoyment from the same type of monster consistently, if they are programed right. Ones that throw spikey damage are particularly fun. This works for me both soloing and in party play, as I switch from healing to support to mild dps constantly(in a group I'm familiar with, not pugs so much).

As for grinding/road blocks, I like certain ones, like rep grind. But I completely understand why someone might not have that kind of patience or time. What I haven't liked so much in the game so far, is how long it takes to get from point A to Point B. Sometimes it seems like all I'm doing is running. :p

But what I was saying about the challenge/road blocks, is that it's not necessarily fun to the masses. If there's one thing I have learned, most people don't like being on the verge of death all the time. There are days I don't either. Occassionally, it's fun to just look at a mon and have it fall over, because it's the only thing in life that will that day.

monopoly is different every time you play it.. why cause you are competing against luck (roll of the dice, and players roll of the dice) your strategy has to change every time you play. When you fight a marmot and it goes atk, atk, skill, atk, atk, skill and its a repeat of the same thing 10000 times over and over.. that's not a challenge... at least not the 1000th time you kill it.

Road blocks are needed, but not too large between content. FFXI did this very well, where you changed camps every 3-5 ranks usually or changed the mob you were grinding on constantly... this made battles not as bad, because the mobs got harder and/or new challenges. Right now in XIV... there isnt much to just go grind on (required to change places) because its just not there. You also arent challenged to save up/gather your next equipment because you can buy the highest one (even though you are semi-gimped) and just rank up to it. This needs to stop, you must make people set goals and change the challenge constantly. You must TEASE/TAUNT players on what they can get, or what unknown they will get when they reach X, Y or Z on the path. Road blocks cannot be 50 ranks before you get something or do something cool, but maybe 3-5 ranks is probably a good portion, and once a person invests enough time into their character they are more like going to keep playing.

+3 @AuctionGirl

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Originally Posted by Eekiki

[citation needed]

I think AuctionGirl and Nipa nailed it.

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Google.com - > Any MMO after 2004.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

i would say cash shop and rideable rainbow ponies.. or telletubbies.

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You and your teletubbies...who put the extra mushrooms in your salad???

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Originally Posted by AuctionGirl

monopoly is different every time you play it.. why cause you are competing against luck (roll of the dice, and players roll of the dice) your strategy has to change every time you play. When you fight a marmot and it goes atk, atk, skill, atk, atk, skill and its a repeat of the same thing 10000 times over and over.. that's not a challenge... at least not the 1000th time you kill it.

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Monopoly is still the same game though. It does not have updates, expansions, changes of monster's tactics, etc. A good monster should be like monopoly as you describe, where your strategy adjusts and changes with it. Marmots sure don't do it, no argument there.

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Road blocks are needed, but not too large between content. FFXI did this very well, where you changed camps every 3-5 ranks usually or changed the mob you were grinding on constantly... this made battles not as bad, because the mobs got harder and/or new challenges. Right now in XIV... there isnt much to just go grind on (required to change places) because its just not there. You also arent challenged to save up/gather your next equipment because you can buy the highest one (even though you are semi-gimped) and just rank up to it. This needs to stop, you must make people set goals and change the challenge constantly. You must TEASE/TAUNT players on what they can get, or what unknown they will get when they reach X, Y or Z on the path. Road blocks cannot be 50 ranks before you get something or do something cool, but maybe 3-5 ranks is probably a good portion, and once a person invests enough time into their character they are more like going to keep playing.

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FFXI did not get the numbers in subscriptions. Not bad numbers, but not staggering. So it's not the best example to look to when talking about the masses. The roadblocks in it were too huge, and made the game inaccessible to the average player. I would certainly agree though, it's pretty silly to be able to get to level cap in a week on any game, although there are those who want to (Why? :confused:).

As for goals, I never argued that. The issue is the level of challenge/roadblocks in a game. People have to feel like they are making progress, and they generally have to be having fun on the journey. 3-5 ranks between major reward, be it boss battle and/or cutscene, etc, sounds good to me, but how long before you get there, and what was the requirement to reach it? If it's two weeks of just grinding (or leves), thats not going to attract masses. Which, ironically, is exactly what's going on in FFXIV. Not enough content. Not enough to do between major goals. In that respect, needing more minor goals, I agree.

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Originally Posted by Nipa

You forgot number #0 A decent engine and interface.

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CT is a great engine. XIV is badly optimized.

I dunno about most of you but i do grind parties alot instead of leve's and its not marmots either. There dobs, efts, boars, peistes, gnats, goats, grabs, puks, skele's people need to utilize the mobs in the caves there's terrific sp and fun to be found that actually have some challenge to them and reward great drops and need some skill to fight. Take a rank 30 group to tam tara or min tauy and u'll see how much fun that is. U only need four or five ppl there

The thing was in FFXI it was about the journey to get that next milestone as well, just getting to cap was a fantastic journey well for me anyway and hitting all those milestones and the sense of achievement when you accomplished something felt great. I just don't get that at all in FFXIV and that is my main problem with it.

Once you hit cap which took a fair while, it was like the game was just beginning because there was so much to do.

PvP has mass appeal.

Any feature that is well designed, executed and not too diluted by over-compromisation

in short,we want to feel we "GROW" our characters

Story, AH, goals worth fighting for. Interesting environments.