Thoughts on Warrior Tank.

So I know the majority of people believe we can't tank end game, and fine whatever I have no interest in discussing that. I play what I like so I play a warrior. I was talking with another warrior and we had an interesting thought. Defiance should have a damage reduction component based on % health missing, so the lower your HP gets the less damage you take. It fits with the berserker concept of the class and even the name of the ability "Defiance". I know it doesn't fall into the healing tank category, it could be swapped and be a healing buff based on % health missing. But to me the DMG redux fits better with my image of the class, the more punishment you take the harder you fight back.

defiant and wrath system really need a remake, idk how
its just stupid atm

How about the lower the HP you are, the higher the additional healing? It'd be even better in my opinion.

Just make the +15% healing bonus passive with Defiance.
Actually, bump that up to a 20% bonus.
That way War has 25% more hp, and gets 20% more healing, so "roughly" equal increase in survivability.
This is compared to PLD who gets 20% mit, hp / 0.8 dmg taken = 1.25x HP, but in essence has a built in 25% "effective" healing mod, as is the nature of mitigation.

So why not make War's 25% as well? Cause PLD is still billed as the "less dps, less aggro, more survivability" tank. So give War a little less survivability, but let them use Wrath to dps and self-heal to their heart's content.

PS. Please dont make this post into yet another argument of War dps/healing vs PLD cooldowns. This is aimed solely at making Defiance more stable and easier to use.

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Originally Posted by oceanlord

defiant and wrath system really need a remake, idk how
its just stupid atm

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Blood Presence
Instant
Requires Death Knight
Requires level 57
You assume the presence of Blood, increasing Stamina by 25%, increasing base armor by 55%, and reducing damage taken by 10%. Threat generation is also significantly increased.



Defensive Stance
Instant 1.5 sec cooldown
Requires Warrior
Requires level 9
A tanking combat stance.

Decreases damage taken by 25%.
Significantly increases threat generation.
Generates 1 Rage every 3 sec while in combat.

Ill be honest, i love my WAR.. my PLD is almost level 47 now..

But why would they ever make the WAR take hits as good as a PLD ?

Now before you rage.. This entire issue is.. Why do people want a WAR for the Coil.. when a PLD can do it better from how the forums read.
If you give the WAR the same survival as the PLD,

Why would you take a PLD now ? All we did was just change the table on what tank is needed. Take the WAR who does much more damage.


There will sadly never be a good balance in the tanks, 1 Does more Damage and Tanks, One Takes less damage and tanks.

You cannot have.
1 takes less Damage and Does more DMG
1 Takes same Damage and Does more DMG
Both does not work.


How do we fix WAR ? To me that can be done. but not the ways suggested so far in increasing armor, etc.

Biggest Change needs to be Inner beast.
Change the Values Have it throw up a shield that does not mess with SCH shield.
Give Defiance a Passive 10%-15% healing Bonus.

To me.. Inner beast is my biggest issue, I take spike damage, whatever. I use inner beast to counter it.. but.. Both Healers just dropped big heals on me causing overhealing and wasted Mana and innerbeast.

I would rather Throw a self shield up before the big hit, or after the hit for healers to have time to fix me up.

so in Reality to me.. (I am not a designer, i am a player.. this may be terrible)

Defiance - +10-15% healing passive
Stacks up to 5x Times
2% Crit Per stack
For Each Stack, Steel Cyclone Gains 50 Potency to a Max of 250 + Emnity Gain at 5 stacks
For Each Stack, Inner Beast gains a 90% of dmg Dealt shield Max of 375% HP Shield based on Damage.

Read Below before comments on these numbers.


Steel Cyclone - Potency based on Wrath Stacks - + Emnity
Inner beast - Shields self, Potency based on Wrath Stacks.
Defiance - Reduce WAR's Damage by 30-35% instead of 25%.


This could be off, but it has potential.

If we want WAR tanking, we have to Do less Damage, Get rid of the healing Aspect from Inner Beast.. Allow us to Inner beast/Steel Cyclone more often as needed would completly change the style of the class.

Paladin still takes Overall Less damage, WAR can now deal with Spike Damage easier.

(Values will most likely need adjusted based on testing)

The math has been done and actually warrior dps is only slightly higher than a paladins... so that argument needs to be dropped.

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Originally Posted by Conna

The math has been done and actually warrior dps is only slightly higher than a paladins... so that argument needs to be dropped.

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So a PLD in tank stance at -20 % dmg does near the same damage as a WAR in tank stance at -25% dmg then a +30% dmg boost from Maim and Storms Eye ?

So.. the -20% dmg from PLD in tank stance is = to the +5% dmg in Tanks stance for WAR ?


What ?

Actually has more to do with the usage of their cds needless to say look through the forum you'll find the page where the dps of each has been calculated. Were only ever so slightly higher dps.

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Originally Posted by Kiaris

So a PLD in tank stance at -20 % dmg does near the same damage as a WAR in tank stance at -25% dmg then a +30% dmg boost from Maim and Storms Eye ?

So.. the -20% dmg from PLD in tank stance is = to the +5% dmg in Tanks stance for WAR ?


What ?

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In tank stance WAR has a slight advantage over PAL if you want to look at it from a potency perspective. PLD has Spirits Within and Circle of Scorn, which are pretty dramatic increases to potency output per unit time.


Just looking at PLD Rage combo is ~203 potency per global, Spirits Within and Circle add 25 each per global, for a total of 50 potency per global. Auto attack works out to ~83 potency per global. These together put PLD at 336 potency per global. Then you add Fight or Flight and Shield Oath for *.8 * 1.1 = ~295 potency.

For WAR it's ~206 potency per global average, but WAR has no off-GCD attacks (other than Mercy Stroke which can basically be ignored due to the timeframe it is usable and its cooldown). Adding in Auto Attacks puts that at ~289 potency per global Storm's Eye and Maim work out to a buff of ~33%. 10% crit works out to about 5%. Berserk (if it's uncleansed) works out to ~5%. And Defiance is -25%. This leaves Warriors at ~314 potency per global.

This puts the jobs easily within 10% of each other in tank stance, with warriors having a slight lead. A WAR could theoretically increase the numbers a little by use of fracture (so could the PLD but not as much), and Unchained / Internal Release. But these are all pretty meager over time, and in general, unchained is a very situational use ability. Also it should be noted that Berserk is also situational use, and should probably not be used on Cooldown, so it's a little unfair to include it but I did it anyway. In general it should be saved Inner Beast, but also can be used to boost early enmity or burn phases.

If WAR had to take a 35% hit of damage in defiance, as you suggested, they would be significantly below PLD on damage output, and significantly below them in single target threat generation.

Note this is all approximated, and based on the idea that potency is based off of weapon damage. It's obviously not precise but intended to give an idea of the differences. There are more factors which come into play, obviously, such as WAR going for higher STR.

Hmm, damn, got the math juices flowing in me.
Base Potency
[150+(100)+200+(100)+260+(100)]/(3*2.5s) - Halone Combo w/ autoattacks = 121.333 potency per second
+ 300/30s (Spirits) + [100+30*15/3]/25s (Circle) = 20 ogcd potency per second
So a total of 141.333 base potency per second. Multiply that by 0.8 for Shield Oath. And multiply by 1+0.3*30/90 = 1.1 for using Fight or Flight on cooldown.
Dont feel like doing the calcs for Sword Oath, since it doesnt seem to follow its 50 autoattack potency math... maybe Im missing a part of the equation...

My MRD isnt very high, so Im not going to speak for WAR potency/sec for the time being.

I rerolled a PLD after having warrior with relic.

The difference is soooooooo huge. PLD is just OP with all the dmg mitigation skills he has.

warrior is totally weakish, speaking of first hand experience.

WAR needs definately a remake, he is lacking massive on dmg mitigation skills. defiance needs a remake.

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Originally Posted by Kenji1134

Hmm, damn, got the math juices flowing in me.
Base Potency
[150+(100)+200+(100)+260+(100)]/(3*2.5s) - Halone Combo w/ autoattacks = 121.333 potency per second
+ 300/30s (Spirits) + [100+30*15/3]/25s (Circle) = 20 ogcd potency per second
So a total of 141.333 base potency per second. Multiply that by 0.8 for Shield Oath. And multiply by 1+0.3*30/90 = 1.1 for using Fight or Flight on cooldown.
Dont feel like doing the calcs for Sword Oath, since it doesnt seem to follow its 50 autoattack potency math... maybe Im missing a part of the equation...

My MRD isnt very high, so Im not going to speak for WAR potency/sec for the time being.

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Auto attack potency isn't 100.

Auto Attack potency is (Weapon Delay / 3)* 100

There are two ways to confirm this. Go in game and measure your auto attack damage compared to your Skill damage (i.e. fast blade). Divide your Fast Blade damage by 1.5, then multiply it by your (delay / 3). This will return your auto attack damage. That shows that Auto Attack potency = (Delay / 3) * 100.

Another way to look at it is by looking at the damage on the weapon versus the auto attack. The "auto attack" stat = (Weapon Speed / 3) * Damage.

Oh? Always assumed it was 100, and served as a base value for most other ability potencies.
So "officially", what is autoattack potency? And where is it stated?

PLD requires about .45 of the healing magic required to keep a WAR upright. Healing is a x.5 enmity rating.
So:

WAR has to contend with being able to last long enough after a big hit - it gives the healer a very small window in which to "save" their tank; WAR must also worry about balancing generating hate to cover that healing magic, and attempting to self-heal - which would be sacrificing their +Healing Potency. Parry rate and mitigation is limited. We have no Pacification available for parrying. Stun on 30sec CD.

PLD using active mitigation and passive mitigation has a larger window for the healer to "save" them - and require less healing magic and thus do not need to worry about generating more hate to compensate.
PLD has the higher single target enmity generating combo, Stun GCD, and Pacification available on block. Block rate can be raised by 60% for a short period; almost guaranteed to present an opportunity to use Shield Swipe.

Warrior has some blaring disadvantages in both utility and survival departments and suffer because of it when grouping at end game.

You guys are crazy - way to take another post intended to prompt a discussion about how to tweak warrior to make them more competitive with PLD main boss tanking, and retitling this thread "PLDs are better because of Algebra". We get it, we have seen the math. Let's apply those critical thinking and powerful math skills to help the OP, or go to a new thread.

I personally would be in total support of a scaled ability for warriors that would increase their healing bonus as they got lower on hit points, up to something like 100% bonus @ 1% hp - just give the current hp and the healing bonus inverse percentile relationships. I think it would make Warrior tanking strategies viable, AND add important variety to the game.

Hi,

Off topic: I see a lot of suggestions reading these forums daily. Some I think are very good suggestions (the OP's being one of the better I've seen in a few days). But have the devs ever taken a community suggestion of a game tweek like this and implemented it?

If so, is this sort of implementation a rare/uncommon/common/frequent occurrence?

The reason for my question is to gauge the usefulness of a thread like this. I'm not being snarky or cynical, I have an ideal I'd like to see for Paladin, but if it's unlikely to be implemented, I'd rather just accept and move on.

Thanks,

Masha

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Originally Posted by Araye

Stuff

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It has happened. The rarity depends on the validity of the idea, taking into account balance, programing, and insider knowledge that we know nothing about as gamers. Certainly they will listen to the community...if it is profitable : D

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Originally Posted by oceanlord

defiant and wrath system really need a remake, idk how
its just stupid atm

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It's not that Wrath is a poor mechanic, it's just that it is too slow to generate. If you could generate a full stack of Wrath with one combo (1 from Swing, 1 from Sunder and 3 from Butcher) it would allow a WAR to use their job skills more liberally and ultimately make up for their lack of standard mitigation by helping to heal away damage twice as often as they can now.

Overpower should really be generating wrath as well, even if it just a chance based on the number of enemies hit. WARs don't need reworking, they just need tweaking.

Also Steel Cyclone's tooltip needs correcting.

Without getting into math, it's a bad idea, imho, to have a mechanic that strips a tank of his primary tanking buff to do anything but mitigate damage better. Even years from now, would anyone care which main tank does 1%, 5%, 10% or even 30% more damage than the other? All people want or expect from their tanks is survival. It's why we have the trifecta system in the first place. You guys do damage, you other guys take damage, you third guys heal damage.

The entire game is designed around the trifecta, so having 2 classes so similar but to have one so clearly suited for harder content... well that just doesn't make sense.

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Originally Posted by Lemon8or

How about the lower the HP you are, the higher the additional healing? It'd be even better in my opinion.

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This makes more sense to me. As a war/pld 50 I find myself more often moving to pld since end game requires much more consistent tanking and dmg mitigation. I love axe classes and I hate how it currently is geared towards early game play and sort of gimps out towards endgame. Is still good and I play it but a tweak is definitely needed. Also 25% increase from defiance seems like a lot but when compared to a pld of the same or equal gear you're looking at roughly 1500 hp over a pld which is not a lot. Please increase the buff to 405 or 50%. I though tanks were supposed to have high hp? I would be nice to be the only class with 9999 hp with ilvl 90+ gear of course.

How the Japanese players feel about warriors.
"I think cause the performance difference between the Warrior and Knight in the end content is unavoidable.
What things are dependent on the status of the late Warrior buff effect that own HP and attack power like self against
Buff effect of night is because that depends on the status of a MOB attack that external difference was born.
Boss is just stronger than current character is from, towards the end content such as labyrinth bahamut accelerating enemies stronger, dramatically change own status is no more than difference between the soldier's buff effects spread will
Due opponent finally stabilizing the night, unless nature buff, this remains
And seems balanced also so we won't do it from one warrior that night than disadvantage in due boss opponent this remain?
I better think again simplistic here is the warrior who give a night through the end in the Warrior or a true Titan somehow barely clear that seems to be so "

"Warriors of the breaking strain is truly Garuda.
Is quick response related to the longevity of content such as recent アムダッシュ fix, fix タイタンバグ
Will be made is the fix for this job?
Feel the performance difference as the Knight and warrior tanks from the real GAL per the honest motivation fallen has. "

So they are having the same discussion...I think.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

This makes more sense to me. As a war/pld 50 I find myself more often moving to pld since end game requires much more consistent tanking and dmg mitigation. I love axe classes and I hate how it currently is geared towards early game play and sort of gimps out towards endgame. Is still good and I play it but a tweak is definitely needed. Also 25% increase from defiance seems like a lot but when compared to a pld of the same or equal gear you're looking at roughly 1500 hp over a pld which is not a lot. Please increase the buff to 405 or 50%. I though tanks were supposed to have high hp? I would be nice to be the only class with 9999 hp with ilvl 90+ gear of course.

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i dont use warrior anymore for running CM.

@hola

My point exactly. I still use war though cause I do love axes. However is it possible to even reach the hp cap with ilvl 90+ with vitality IV materia stacked till it gets dim returns?