Provoke Working as Intended? Maybe a change?

As a tank I'm rather annoyed at the way Provoke works. I hit it and it's as if it moves me 1 pt of enimity above the highest person on the list. However, if a WHM has regen on me and the whm has hate and I am provoking a mob off the WHM it immediately turns back around to go to the whm because of the tick on regen..

Similar effect if I provoke off a BLM just before they land their next spell.

Now the argument here will be the WHM shouldn't have had regen on you when they have hate, or you should have clicked regen off first. Or the blm should stop attacking when something is chasing them. And while all these things are true, I think provoke should be buffed a little bit, not a lot, just a little.

In my opinion provoke should be like an actual taunt, forcing something to attack me for some fixed duration, giving me at least one GCD to get some more enimity on it before it runs away again.

As it stands now I find myself provoking distant targets then immediately Tomahawk spamming them which uses up a lot of TP and doesn't always work. I also find myself having to use holmgang on some trash so it literally cannot go anywhere while I beat on it.

Well, if any change had to be done i'd say that they could... I don't know, shorten Provoke's range to match that of Shield Lob?
Either way Provoke is fine in my opinion, at least from my little experience as a tank. As a Gladiator on Cutter's Cry I was having the most awful run against the Chimera and I learned one thing, going Provoke -> Shield Lob is enough to regain tanking capacity in one GCD cycle even with the lancer going off at it like a madman. Presumably even moreso had I had Shield Oath

Provoke is working as intented. "Taunting" is very... dumb and doesn't teach aggro management. Not trying to be rude, but Managing your combos are important to maintaining high threat.

But the fault does not lie in just the tank, Medica spamming is retarded. People don't know how tank emnity works, and thus they spam. As for BLM, people need to relax and let the tank get a couple hits. They need to learn that the combo is x2 emnity, x3 emnity, x5 emnity repeat. They don't know that your first hit doesn't actually generate much emnity.

Provoke turning into a taunt will not fix lack of knowledge, plus it would break many fights in Coil that require proper swapping using smart tanks.

Most taunts in MMOs have the same behavior you described. But most other MMOs also make it to where a taunted mob is forced to attack the tank for 3 seconds after casting taunt. This gives the tank enough time to generate threat and get the situation back under control.

I would love to see that added, but I don't see that happening.

Yeah I get it. Just trying to educate myself farther so when I start flaming out punchy dps and precasting regen whm's I have some solid grounds to make my argument...

Pretty sure it was like this in FFXI, but I haven't played it in so long I forget. I know I remember BLM's pulled a lot with Ancient Magic and that they had to basically wait until it would kill the mob before casting it or MAgic Burst with other mages to ensure it died.

Keep in mind Provoke is not on the GCD and does not evoke the GCD. Following up with a shield lob if far away or a Rage of Halone is usually plenty to keep something off of the previous target.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ryios

As a tank I'm rather annoyed at the way Provoke works. I hit it and it's as if it moves me 1 pt of enimity above the highest person on the list.

---

That is precisely how provoke works, yes. You use it to regain hate when you've lost it. If your object is to build up a lead in hate, Provoke is useless. Use Flash, Savage Blade, or other hate management tools.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Conradus

That is precisely how provoke works, yes. You use it to regain hate when you've lost it. If your object is to build up a lead in hate, Provoke is useless. Use Flash, Savage Blade, or other hate management tools.

---

Yeah I get that, so let me explain what happens to me in every AK run.

I engage the dudes that summon the void caller. I mark the void caller summoner. I interupt the void caller summer. On the engage I pop 1 flash and an overpower then I drop a rotation for enmity on the void caller (my marked target). However, before I finish that 3 ability rotation a blm drops an AOE and the two non void callers leave me and go straight for the BLM. So I provoke one mark it with a 2 and then I throw my tomohawk at it so I don't move all over the place. But that's not enough, provoke + tomohawk does not get it off the BLM... Because the blm is trying to kill the thing chasing him.

So basically it comes down to DPS (omg we must do this faster faster faster, speed run FASTER) not wanting to stop attacking something. Or they panic because it's chasing them and the're attacking it, making the problem worse and blaming me for it.

If I chase it I eventually get it, but then I loose the void caller. As for the other one running around... I can't tomohawk/provoke both of them so I just ignore it. Craps everywhere.

Now if I do what I said and the BLM casts single target spells on the void caller, it dies quickly, I don't lose anything and switch to traget #2 and we clear the pack in less than a minute.

The problem is the DPS, not the tank. But a taunting provoke would fix this and make runs a bit faster, all I was inquiring.

Taunting Provoke would NOT fix this. The problem lies with the DPS. They are just going to pull aggro again and again. People need to fix their mentality of a stat that was deemed worthless by other MMOs

Ryios just described exactly how that encounter happens in nearly every pug. I personally let it eat the black mages face. Then I explain what happened, and how to avoid it happening again. If it happens again, I just let it eat his face again. He will either learn, or drop group. I get instant queues, it's not really hurting me too much.

But ya, a 3 second force taunt would be handy when said black mages takes off at full sprint away from the tank to get away from the mob he ticked off. =P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ryios

-

---

As PLD, I use savage/halone on other enemies that are taking damage occasionally, to maintain greater enmity over the people who don't know how to focus their efforts. It's not 100% "fool"proof of course but, it works well. Provoke should be used to draw the enemy back to you, so you can use something like savage/halone (i forget the exact equivalent for marauder) to maintain the hate, and alternate your targets.

This, of course, is only when the other party members (ranged dps mostly) are derping and don't understand hate mechanics.

As a backup, in the above scenario I use holmgang on add #3, so it can't go anywhere. I let the blm run around kiting #2, upon losing #2 I go into OP/Flash spam on #1 and #3. This allows me to keep 2 adds, but having used holmgang prevents me from moving to get #2 for 5 seconds. BUt in my experience, blm's can kite pretty well so I just ignore him and let him do his thing.

I do alternate my target's. The problem is I'm not given the chance to do so. With a 2.5 second gcd I take's me 5 seconds for initial flash -> overpower engage, then 7.5 seconds for main enimity rotation on primary target, then 2.5 second per target switch after that. Most times I lose adds 4 seconds into the engage. If the GCD is lower at 50, or modified by skill speed, then subtract a little from those times, but it's still significant.

This isn't wow. It's not a recount race. So many DPS think their job is to do the MAXIMUM dps they possibly can 24/7 and that's just not the case. Or the DPS compete with each other, one is going all out, so the other goes all out... If people slow down and add some structure/strategy to trash packs that enables the tank to hold agro... the run goes faster, not slower.

Secondly AOE dmg on 3 mobs is actually slower than single targetting them down. The void caller dies in about 8 seconds when it's single targeted down and the entire pack goes down i 30 or less... Aoe wise and chaos they take minutes to kill.

As the story goes, proper enmity management is not just the tanks job.

If someone manages to get hate off the tank, they should expect provoke to follow as a catch up to be even and know if they do anything right away they take it back. Now as a dps, if that agro symbol turns red and you keep attacking and the tank provokes your likely still on top. smart dps would stop attacking till the tank hit the mob once or twice before starting again (well true smart slows dps before get hate, but that's another story). ranged dps runs to the tan so after provoke the tank can hit it to actually establish hate.

Now for healers it is a bit more complicated as they can not just stop healing, but those who run father away with the mob (most healers) rather than help by bringing it to the tank and keep curing are the ones that make something like provoke useless.

I'd suggest a 3sec forced target be added to give the tank 1 GCDs to secure the mob or more then +1 on the emnity bar to help with the issue. But if non-tanks learned their party rolls better then it would make this soo much less of an issue

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DJPr3tty

Provoke is working as intented. "Taunting" is very... dumb and doesn't teach aggro management.

Provoke turning into a taunt will not fix lack of knowledge, plus it would break many fights in Coil that require proper swapping using smart tanks.

---

I do not disagree and do not want provoke as a regular part of my rotation however in its currentl implementation regen can cancel the affect which is unhelpful. Keep the long cool down and let it be one of our 'Oh Sh!t' abilities.

An example would be a boss that spawns adds just as a healer drops a large or group heal the slightest network or video lag and you have a lead in threat over the tank. I would love to be able to provoke in this occasion and have it be effective. There are times you need a provoke and it should stick long enough for us to regain threat or at least the cast time of a sleep spell so someone can re-sleep the mob.

Try this if you lose hate. Provoke >>> Shield Lob >>> Flash. That will work.

I think provoke is an incredibly useful ability if used correctly. Its more of a "damn I screwed up and lost hate. Let me fix that."

Didn't completely read topic. But I think people when they get hate should learn to run to the tank or in the case they are there, stand still. Too many people run away and in massive circles which make you go "How am I supposed to hit it let alone build hate?"