It's not just the WAR that needs tweaking

To start off, no, I am not 50, obviously. This is an examination of PLD abilities and an argument for completely changing 3/5 of them and I don't think you need to be 50 to look at them logically. The PLD has some of the most lackluster job abilities in the game and it should change.

So think of this as a rallying cry for PLD's. I wouldn't want just the WAR's getting all the attention.

Sword Oath: Damn near if not the worst abilitiy in the game (second to Awareness, because we stack fail), it is given to us as our introduction to life as a PLD. I'm not sure why this ability even exists, let alone as our job defining ability. Basically an extra auto-attack for about 75% normal aa damage.

The BLM gets a bit of a shaft for their intro ability, but at least it is useful for their entire job lifespan.

Verdict: Replace with Shield Oath. As the class defining ability, this should come up first. Is it odd that it does a flat damage reduction though? I mean, shields don't even add to your defense. Maybe it should up parry/block rating by 300% or something. If there is a block cap, this should help get us there. But then it becomes unreliable. Oh my. Maybe add Block/Parry rating to defense as well? Just throwing stuff at the wall.

Perhaps waiting a few more levels before equipping the soul is a good idea so we don't lose good things like Second Wind. But the wait will be longer than expected because up next is...

Cover: As a true PLD ability, there are none that surpass it. It was the first thing Cecil learned while confronting himself.

As a game ability, I'm not even sure when this should be used. Every scenario that I can think of this being useful is the result of some sort of failure and even then I'd be reluctant to waste a GCD using this rather than trying piece a broken situation back together. This is not the first step toward that goal.

If there were ever a time when game mechanics require that I take the hit for someone standing next to me, or that I have to run to get to, then the WAR's will have even more to cry about. This is the chief micromanagement abilities for PuG members incapable of getting the hell out of the way.

Verdict: Remove it. As lore defining as the ability is, there are no situations where this should be the go to. At some point, somebody messed up or got an add or whatever, but there are better things to do with my GCD. Maybe auto-Cover that lasts for a minute or something instead? I dunno.

So hold onto that soul a little longer, ok?

Shield Oath: The job defining ability that should have been obtained at level 30. This is the reason GLA's have a job. To protect and serve.

This alone is what make WHM swoon and WAR's rage. Congratulation, you have a job.

Verdict: Moved to level 30. Maybe a spell that can damage and draw in all enemies? Holy is taken, but it should have something to do with our [pretend] holiness. There are times when stuff is going wild with adds and people are all over the place and this would allow the PLD to calm the situation down a little by pulling everything to himself. This also goes along with protecting his allies and whatnot.

Spirits Within: Ok, I can see a time and place for this, but does it really belong to a PLD? So, yes, it has it's place in a battle and is a boon to our [parties] MDef, but what about it says PLD?

The lack of enmity generation and large CD mean that it is standby when a magic user is immune to stun, I guess. Besides, don't we have enough CD's? Just because this one does damage, does that really make it any better?

Verdict: Remove. How about a passive that raises our MDef the more times we block. This would flow with the modified Shield Oath and that is always fun. Or throw that effect on a CD. Whatevs.

Speaking of CD's...

Hallowed Ground: Another "oh Shiitake!" button to join our entire bar of "oh Shiitake!" buttons. The ambiguity around the description has me nervous, but should make me immune long enough to pull a party through a rough spot. Isn't it boring though?

And I think that is what I'm getting at. The job is boring. There is no flow to it, though the abilities seem like they belong lore wise (CNJ's redundant and useless cross skills aside).

Verdict: Alter. Modified version: Judgement. You take cover behind your shield for 5 seconds becoming immune to all damage, but are immobile and cannot use other skills. After the 5 seconds has passed you lash out and deal Holy damage to all targets in the amount you absorbed.

What to do? I have no idea! [Edit: inserted some poor ones] The wisdom is in the masses, not in me. Some have talked about bringing Holy Succor (is that what it was called?) back. Meh.

I think I'm just jelly when I look at other jobs and there is excitement and flare. If not for the perceived holes, the WAR looks like a really fun job to use. There is purpose and a flow to each ability and it works perfectly with its core class. (Maybe I should stop now... the GLA isn't exactly the lifestyle I would expect PLD to recruit from, nor would I have ever suspected they would be protecting anyone but themselves. I think they need more leather straps and nets.)

Maybe the class was modified to this 2.0 version as a benchmark for balance. It is a very dumbed down class with little flow that does just what it is supposed to do and nothing more.

But I want something more.

I want to look forward to equipping this soul right away, not getting bummed that I have to wait 10 more levels for my job to be good while all my buddies are out Jumping and Singing and Tinkerbelling and whatnot.

Let's tell SE that we are not the benchmarks for content creation but rather the foundation that our friends and allies stand on. They want more tanks? Make the WAR's viable (popular opinion, not mine) and make the PLD's fun!

Edit: Looks ugly, needs formatting, too tired to care right now. Sorry!
Edit 2: Added some suggestions and "verdicts" so you can tell where I stand on each. Doing this caused inconsistencies on the whole so needs be modified. Still ugly to look at.

Do you see that thread with the WAR DPSing Garuda? A smart PLD can do even more damage than that WAR due to a combination of Sword Oath, Circle of Scorn, and Spirits Within(a 250/300 potency attack on a 25/30s cooldown, off the GCD. Even just one of them is better than the BRD's vaunted Bloodletter[150 potency, 15s cooldown] due to swords having higher base damage than bows).

And if the main tank is about to die, they can Cover the tank and pop their mitigation cooldowns to save the raid.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ruminate

Do you see that thread with the WAR DPSing Garuda? A smart PLD can do even more damage than that WAR due to a combination of Sword Oath, Circle of Scorn, and Spirits Within(a 250/300 potency attack on a 25/30s cooldown, off the GCD. Even just one of them is better than the BRD's vaunted Bloodletter[150 potency, 15s cooldown] due to swords having higher base damage than bows).

---

So the ability exists so I can secondary tank? The very first thing I get as a PLD is better secondary tanking ability. And you support that?

Also, I don't see how Sword Oath fits into your equation since it does not have any effect on the abilities you described. It only increases auto attack damage by about 75% which is not something I think any class should waste 1 of 5 job abilities on. And how again does an aoe w/ dot, higher auto attack damage and a 30 second 300 potency attack make one a decent dps machine? That isn't good burst and can't be considered sustained since your core ability there is on a 30 second CD.

I don't get the point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ruminate

And if the main tank is about to die, they can Cover the tank and pop their mitigation cooldowns to save the raid.

---

So, now we have 2 job abilities for off-tank/secondary tanking? Though that situation seems plausible, it also takes a crystal ball to read. Communication in raid environments is necessary, sure, but that is pretty extreme.

"Hey guys, in about 2 seconds, I won't be able to keep him alive, can the dedicated off tank job cover for him while I do something else? I hope your aren't stuck in GCD or long animation. Oh, and your time is up, I talk slow. Can a summoner go ahead and battle raise him please. Thanks."

I currently like all of the abilities that paladin gets, and in the order that we get them. The only thing I would like changed is the ability to pop our Shield Stun outside of global cooldown like "Spirits Within" but with a penalty that stops usage of global cooldowns for X amount of seconds (similar to the penalty "Berserk" generates for marauders).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yunnie

I currently like all of the abilities that paladin gets, and in the order that we get them. The only thing I would like changed is the ability to pop our Shield Stun outside of global cooldown like "Spirits Within" but with a penalty that stops usage of global cooldowns for X amount of seconds (similar to the penalty "Berserk" generates for marauders).

---

I can get on board with that. There are a few GLA adjustments that would make life better. Having Shield Swipe off GCD as well is one of them.

Sword oath is crap and should increase our ability damage by 50 potency not our auto attack

And paladins should get shield oath first because they are tank not a subpar DPS

replace cover with a heal, paladins are suppose to heal they are not Prot Warriors from WoW

The devs balanced raids by having 2 tanks. If you don't have the tools to be a secondary tank, then you might as well replace them with a DPS. The tools I listed prevent that.

A PLD's core ability is not on a 30s cooldown, or any cooldown for that matter. A PLD's core abilities are Fast Blade, Savage Blade, and Rage of Halone. If you can't fathom how this makes PLDs a decent DPS machine, then you clearly haven't compared the potency on these skills with the skills the DPS have to work with. Sword Oath, Circle of Scorn, and Spirits Within are akin to the buffs and abilities off GCD that DPS have available.

And what do you mean "it takes a crystal ball to read"? Cover is another "oh shit" button. Are you seriously suggesting that "oh shit" buttons are too hard to use?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ruminate

A PLD's core ability is not on a 30s cooldown, or any cooldown for that matter. A PLD's core abilities are Fast Blade, Savage Blade, and Rage of Halone. If you can't fathom how this makes PLDs a decent DPS machine, then you clearly haven't compared the potency on these skills with the skills the DPS have to work with. Sword Oath, Circle of Scorn, and Spirits Within are akin to the buffs and abilities off GCD that DPS have available.

---

I will assume that you did not fail at reading comprehension and simply forgot what you had said. Let me help you out:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ruminate

A smart PLD can do even more damage than that WAR due to a combination of Sword Oath, Circle of Scorn, and Spirits Within(a 250/300 potency attack on a 25/30s cooldown, off the GCD. Even just one of them is better than the BRD's vaunted Bloodletter[150 potency, 15s cooldown] due to swords having higher base damage than bows).

---

Now try reading what I said again. You list three abilities and I point out that the core ability in that group was Spirits Within. Also, you compare these to a ranged classes level 12 ability as if it were supposed to be on par? I think you are making my point for me.

Yes, you correctly listed the PLD's core enmity generating abilities. They are good, but not great damage. Potency is not the end all and if you think that activating Sword Oath suddenly makes us a viable DPS class then our discussion ends now. No point in going any further with you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ruminate

And what do you mean "it takes a crystal ball to read"? Cover is another "oh shit" button. Are you seriously suggesting that "oh shit" buttons are too hard to use?

---

Using a CD on yourself is easy enough to do, you know you have high incoming damage or you want to spare the healer some MP or give them time, whatever. That is a part of life as a tank. What makes Cover so worthless, in my opinion, is how narrow the use cases are. You listed one and it can happen. But why are you the only thinking "Oh shit"? Does not the other tank have an option, or the healer? Suddenly, you swoop in like a savior and completely waste somebody else's CD and shift the healers focus to you.

So, no, it isn't a normal "Oh shit" button. It is a button that needs communication and if it needs communication, then it isn't reactive. Beyond that very narrow chance to use it, when else would you rather use that than something else, like Provoke or Flash? You could Cover a healer who just took group agro, I guess. But then Cover is the bad tank button. It just feels annoying.

I'm sorry you disagree. I don't think 2 or 3 of our 5 job abilities should be for secondary tanking. In practice, we only have 4 since 2 of them are stances. The WAR has no option for DPS or secondary tanking, so I'm not sure why you think it is ok for PLD's. There might even be an argument that the GLA is a better secondary tank than a PLD since they would have many more options for the whole of the fight. That would take some looking into, though.

Your opinion of these skills will change at 50, even more with gear.

Sword Oath: While it is odd that we get it before shield oath, I had no problems tanking from 30-40. It is our "dps" stance, nothing more, and if you crunch the numbers, paladins actually do similar dps to wars with it up. I don't understand the hate for this - if you are tanking, don't use it.

Cover: Whats wrong with having a narrow cooldown? We already have plenty of mitigation cd's, cover is just icing on the cake. If you can't find times to use cover, then you aren't trying hard enough.

Spirits Within: Spirits within is off the gcd. At the very least, it is (usually) a free, 300 potency attack that you can use in between your threat combo. This makes it, before damage modifiers, one of the hardest hitting melee skills in the game. If that were all, it would still be fine, but it is also a silence. Of recent note, this is hugely useful on the Dhorme Chimera, because it means you can do other things besides just auto attack and still interupt.

Hallowed Ground: I don't get your complaints about this at all. This is spell is awsome. It's funny seeing warriors complain about paladins and not mention this ability, because this is the true reason paladins are OP. 10 seconds immunity to damage, and it doesn't even drop threat like it did in WoW? This is the ultimate tanking ability.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LunarRei

Also, you compare these to a ranged classes level 12 ability as if it were supposed to be on par? I think you are making my point for me.

Yes, you correctly listed the PLD's core enmity generating abilities. They are good, but not great damage. Potency is not the end all and if you think that activating Sword Oath suddenly makes us a viable DPS class then our discussion ends now. No point in going any further with you.

---

You're right. No point in furthering this discussion, especially when your logic is "higher level abilities are supposed to be superior to lower level ones"

I guess it'll be awhile before someone else also does the math and finds out that PLD's CP per second is actually higher than the WAR's CP per second.

what about sentinel and rampart 2 pretty much identical resit buffs and yes you are right and I can totally agree on cover being useless lol I don't think the paladin was thaught through very well and could use another revamping

Cover, useless? Negative. Covers proven useful on various occasions, including when Provoke is down and you (for whatever reason may be) don't have aggro.

I think the point that is being missed is that the skills don't flow and the use cases are too marginal. When comparing to other jobs who get major and obvious benefits from their abilities, we are stuck with really lackluster ones that players are finding ways to stick in to situations, rather than complementing the classes play style. I don't think all of you that are defending these are even reading what I had said. Aside from Cover, I actually argued for their usefulness for the most part.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ruminate

You're right. No point in furthering this discussion, especially when your logic is "higher level abilities are supposed to be superior to lower level ones"

I guess it'll be awhile before someone else also does the math and finds out that PLD's CP per second is actually higher than the WAR's CP per second.

---

Are low level abilities supposed to be stronger than high ones? If my logic is flawed, then you are just fucked. Also, the emphasis was on Job abilities which should be even more powerful. Fire<FireIII<Flare, Cure<CureII<Benediction, etc. I don't think anyone would argue that higher level abilities should be weaker than low levels, but your poorly chosen words make it seem like you are in favor of it. I'm still flabbergasted that you think we are some sort of dedicated secondary tank.

Ultimately, I am not complaining about the PLD's ability to perform its role. The problem is that the best parts of it's role are found as a GLA. Looking at each job side by side and the only other one that stands out as being completely lackluster is the BLM (some might argue the BRD, but I like them personally). But that also isn't to say that what the BLM has is useless, far from it. It just doesn't feel very Black Magey.

Once again, 2 stances, an ability that people are forcing themselves to use in f'd up situations instead of playing right, a high damage silence on 30 sec CD, and a bubble. Nevermind, I am convinced. All those 1.0 people are stupid for thinking their Paladin was better.

There are so many things wrong with this post its just /facepalm worthy. It would a good idea to level to 50 and get a real understanding of whats happening before you start posting about something you know nothing about. Each and every one of those abilities is extremely useful in a multitude of situations and make the difference between a good and an exceptional PLD.

Lunar, you're initial idea for this thread was viable and a great discussion point, but it has unfortunately declined into an argument that is based on ego, for the most part.

I'm only 35, but I have raided end-game on other games, and I have a strong feeling Cover and Hallowed Ground are going to be absolutely instrumental factors in the end-game bosses. They are awesome utilities (maybe not great in group-play) and they will be very useful. I don't really like Sword Oath that much, but it does kind of give you validity when you are not in an MT role. What I really wish we had was a group heal off the GCD with a long refresh that costs a lot of MP, or something else curative that can draw enmity, all we get is a piddly cure1? I wanted more healing firepower : (

Man I love seeing people that don't even have the abilities yet say "Remove them" as if they know what use they are.

Spirits Within is a huge part of our gameplay at 50 since it is an off GCD interrupt vs casters not to mention just a flat out potency increase thats off the GCD. Removing it would hurt us more then anything.

Sword Oath is just meh. It actually pulls more threat then Shield Oath but doesn't offer the dmg reduction which is key. I'd prefer if they gave it just a flat out damage increase and emnity REDUCTION so when we are OTing we could at least do some decent dmg.

Cover is situationally useful. Granted the only time I ever used it was to save a heals life while OTing HM Garuda but it can be used anytime we are offtanking to save the MT as well. Healers get behind pop cover to give them a few seconds to catch up.

Hallowed Ground: So basically you just want to nerf us to being immobile while it's up right? Thanks you must be a WAR main.

Lore or not these abilities for the most part give us the utility of the class. If you choose not to use them thats on you but the good players will put them to use as needed. I can't tell you a single boss fight that I haven't used all of these except cover. Yea even Sword Oath during burn phases for the little bit of extra damage.

TL;DR get to 50 and actually use the abilities to see what they do before you judge and say remove them or change because it doesn't fit what you think it should be. Lore doesn't fit for you then find a class that does

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LunarRei

Are low level abilities supposed to be stronger than high ones? If my logic is flawed, then you are just fucked. Also, the emphasis was on Job abilities which should be even more powerful. Fire<FireIII<Flare, Cure<CureII<Benediction, etc. I don't think anyone would argue that higher level abilities should be weaker than low levels

---

Exactly how much of this game have you played of even researched about?

50 Blm rotation still uses Fire I heavily as it procs firestarter to get free Fire III casts. Without it their dps plummets due to the high mp costs.
WHMs spam cure I to get instant and free Cure II as well as other things.

All of the abilities in game both low and high level mesh together and still at 50 all have to be used to do the jobs properly. The game is designed around the potency of attacks not around a base damage of them. Potency does not increase or decrease but the strength does increase with str/dex/int/mnd and weapon damage. So higher end your spells and attacks get stronger. All of them from the level 1 attacks to the level 50 ones

On the topic of PLD DPSing:

Wouldn't running GLD be > then PLD if you were trying to maximize DPS? Sure you lose Sword Oath and Spirits Within, Circle of Scorn is GLD skill, but you can take CD skills like:

Invigorate (+500tp)
Blood for Blood (+30% dmg, +25% dmg received)
Raging Strikes (+20% dmg)
Internal Release (+20% Crit)

As PLD off tanking while DPSing:

Maybe it is my warrior in my FC who sucks at threat generation but I will end up tanking any mob that I am focusing down, regardless of what Oath I run. Which makes me, in regards to the above, think a GLD as DPS will still end up tanking.

(i know i pull more threat because we generally have to run war, pld, whm, smn in 4 man dungeons because our dps suck ass at leveling and we are the only ones at or near 50).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kryzen

On the topic of PLD DPSing:

Wouldn't running GLD be > then PLD if you were trying to maximize DPS? Sure you lose Sword Oath and Spirits Within, Circle of Scorn is GLD skill, but you can take CD skills like:

Invigorate (+500tp)
Blood for Blood (+30% dmg, +25% dmg received)
Raging Strikes (+20% dmg)
Internal Release (+20% Crit)

As PLD off tanking while DPSing:
Maybe it is my warrior in my FC who sucks at threat generation but I will end up tanking any mob that I am focusing down, regardless of what Oath I run. Which makes me, in regards to the above, think a GLD as DPS will still end up tanking.

(i know i pull more threat because we generally have to run war, pld, whm, smn in 4 man dungeons because our dps suck ass at leveling and we are the only ones at or near 50).

---

A PAL will actually out DPS a GLD running those skills for a few reasons.
First off, the skills you listed are with their "enhanced" effects, so they are significantly less effective than what you've posted for off class. The big question then becomes: Is Sword Oath and Spirits Within worth all these cooldowns?

1: Invigorate is 400 TP, but TP isn't really an issue with PAL dps. In most fights there are enough breaks that you will never run out of TP (i.e. Ifrit Charges, Garuda Blasts, etc.)
2: Blood for Blood = 20% damage for 20 seconds on an 80 second CD. That's a 25% uptime of 20% damage increase, which works out to ~5% damage increase overall.
3: Raging Strikes = 20% damage for 20 seconds on a 180 sec CD. That's 11% uptime, which works out to an overall ~2.2% damage increase.
4: Internal Release = 15% crit for 15 seconds on a 60 sec cd. This is harder to measure its contribution, but at low crit rates you can approximate to 15% chance to deal 50% more damage, with a 25% uptime, which works out to ~2% damage increase overall.

Altogether, that's about 10% increase in damage output for those 3 cooldowns, perhaps slightly higher depending on whether they stack multiplicatively or additively (also keep in mind if they are multiplicative you still have the issue of losing buff time when trying to stack 4 DPS buffs, due to animation speed).

Now we have to approximate the value of Sword Oath, Circle of Scorn, and Spirits Within

To do this we look at the average DPS output for PAL's highest output combo: Rage of Halone. This works out to ~200 potency per 2.5 second global. Note that Riot Blade can be used as well for hate management, if you're worried about pulling, because it's only a slight potency loss at ~190 potency average per global. So if you're trying to NOT tank, you should avoid using Rage of Halone (other than to apply the debuff).

Turns out this is not accurate. PAL auto attacks hit more frequently than 2.5 seconds. This doesn't change the auto attack potency per GCD, but it does change the contribution from Sword Oath. This makes Sword Oath even better depending on the speed of your weapon. PAL auto attacks also hit every 2.5 seconds, which is conveniently the global cooldown as well. The potency is WepSpd/3 * 100, or ~83.
Then you also add in Sword Oath, which adds another 50 Potency per auto attack.

So if a Paladin is going through their normal rotation Without Sword Oath they will be ~280 potency per 2.5 seconds. With Sword Oath ~330 Potency per 2.5 seconds. So Sword Oath alone works out to ~a 18% increase in damage output. This is already more than the contribution those 3 DPS buffing skills would provide. But there's more.

Circle of Scorn, assuming you get full duration is an additional 250 potency every 25 seconds (works out to 10 potency per second), or 25 potency every 2.5 seconds. But this is usable by both PAL and GLD.

Spirits Within is 300 potency every 30 seconds(again, 10 potency per second) again, 25 potency every 2.5 seconds. However, this is PAL only.

So, a PAL using Scorn and Spirits Within, and Sword Oath will be at about 380 attack potency output every 2.5 seconds, when averaged out. And a GLD using Scorn will be at 305 potency every 2.5 seconds. This is ~24% damage increase.

So, in short, no. A GLD would have no chance of doing more DPS than a PAL. The bonus potency from Sword oath far outstrips the more meager contribution of other classes damage cooldowns. People are HUGELY underestimating how amazing Sword Oath is. When a PLD is outside of shield oath, they actually are fairly competitive with DPS when compared to a WAR outside of Defiance. This is because WAR gets absolutely nothing from the WAR job while not being in their Defiance, while PLD gets Sword Oath, and Spirits Within.

The best part about it, is that for a PAL all they have to do is turn on Shield Oath, cast a Provoke, and pick up tanking if need be. This is one of the reasons it always makes me laugh a little when people say WAR make such better offtanks because of their DPS contribution. PAL can have just as competitive contribution as offtanks.

Thanks for the match Hachiko, saved me some time there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hachiko

snip

---

I learned a lot from your post. Nicely written.