Tomes farming feedback.

First off, i hate speed runs, you do all they way to the boss, die 1 time and someone levaes.

Every time i do something for the first time, people leaves, i'm being kind telling you, most pll would just keep it and die in a sec.

I'm starting to hate this community a lot, because of the speedruns, the solution is easy.

Make mobs and chest drop tomes in dungeons! we would take more time to get more tomes instead of doing speedruns, ppl wont be in a rush every time they enter in a dungeon, and this will also help to create a better community.

PS: i wanted to post this on a feedback section, but we don't have one, hope some dev read this, also like and bump if you like the idea, the tomes farming system needs to be reworked.

Its this way in all the content, not just dungeons. People get upset and leave after one loss, or because someones gear isn't correct. Your best bet is do things with your FC. I finished the story line and tried a few fights only to find the attitude in duty finder is terrible. So I decided I will wait and do the content with my FC.

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Originally Posted by Lstkaws

Its this way in all the content, not just dungeons. People get upset and leave after one loss, or because someones gear isn't correct. Your best bet is do things with your FC. I finished the story line and tried a few fights only to find the attitude in duty finder is terrible. So I decided I will wait and do the content with my FC.

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Not quite all content. It's pretty bad in things people spam (AK, HM Ifrit, maybe Garuda), but try going to Wanderer's Palace. It's great. I've never had anyone pressure me there. There are speed runs, but they're more relaxed. They really need to start making Mythology stones drop from that damn Tonberry though, he's harder than AK's boss.

FC will still do speedruns, and speedruns are the origin of all the drama ragarding tomes farming.

But leaving farming aside, dungeons have been designed to be cleared not just to run to boss and die to get a raise, if i were the dungeon designer i would be very pissed about speedruns.

I joined an AK group as a tank. DRG had lvl ~30 rings and weapon. BRD had ~20 rings a weapon. This group had 0% chance of killing any bosses. I'm not sticking around.

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Originally Posted by Renik

FC will still do speedruns, and speedruns are the origin of all the drama ragarding tomes farming.

But leaving farming aside, dungeons have been designed to be cleared not just to run to boss and die to get a raise, if i were the dungeon designer i would be very pissed about speedruns.

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Then dont design them so that killing monsters costs you gil instead of earning it. There is absolutely no reason to kill trash mobs besides doing it once to complete it the right way and enjoy the mechanics.
Who enters the wanderer's palace for the 20th time in a day thinking "Oh yeah! I'm gonna kill birds and bugs for 15 mins to get to the Gobbue and then pay 5 times what I earned here on repairs!"

I've heard a lot of ideas regarding the speed runs, this sounds like one of the best I've heard. If philosophy tombstones dropped from mobs at a rate that gave roughly the same number (or perhaps a bit more) by the end and mythology tombstones for completion of the dungeon then people who are gearing up would farm it. People who are way past it could speed run for the mythology if they thought philosophy tombstones were useless and were desperate to farm in a hurry.

edit: yeah also the repair thing

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Originally Posted by DietMrPibb

I joined an AK group as a tank. DRG had lvl ~30 rings and weapon. BRD had ~20 rings a weapon. This group had 0% chance of killing any bosses. I'm not sticking around.

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I have to agree that pretty often you find people that are very badly geared... or simply don't know how to dps properly on their jobs.

I hate when i wait an hour for a AK run and it ends up with two or three people that have never done the dungeon. Even worse usaully the dps's gear is so horrible that I know we have no chance to finish the dungeon so I tell them I'm leaving and then proceed to get flamed for being elitist.

It would be perfect if each mob dropped some tombstones, it would definitely entice players to clear the entire dungeon.

Sadly I don't see SE implementing this.

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Originally Posted by Celestine

I hate when i wait an hour for a AK run and it ends up with two or three people that have never done the dungeon. Even worse usaully the dps's gear is so horrible that I know we have no chance to finish the dungeon so I tell them I'm leaving and then proceed to get flamed for being elitist.

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The game has been out all of two or three weeks and you expect not to find new players still getting to endgame? If you want perfect runs with no new people you need to find a FC that is running them consistently with geared players and not complain about players using the DF that are new to the dungeon.

The changes to the iLVL requirements on dungeons will help some with the gear issue but you'll find new players in DF for a bit yet. My FC has ~50 players and I'd say only a small handful of them have even completed the story missions.

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Originally Posted by Dorin

It would be perfect if each mob dropped some tombstones, it would definitely entice players to clear the entire dungeon.

Sadly I don't see SE implementing this.

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This and changing the way gear damage is higher for using skills and successfully running a dungeon than speed running.

I've also seen a suggestion in another thread (sorry if this was your idea I don't remember who to give credit to), where something analogous to XP chains are included. This way a well coordinated group of skilled players could get more tombstones by achieving and maintaining the chain bonuses. Maybe even having some kind of effect when pulling a boss based on the current chain bonus #. Though Dorin is probably right, where none of this is likely to get implemented. Still gonna try to stay positive and suggest anyway!

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Originally Posted by Thebatman

I've also seen a suggestion in another thread (sorry if this was your idea I don't remember who to give credit to), where something analogous to XP chains are included. This way a well coordinated group of skilled players could get more tombstones by achieving and maintaining the chain bonuses. Maybe even having some kind of effect when pulling a boss based on the current chain bonus #. Though Dorin is probably right, where none of this is likely to get implemented. Still gonna try to stay positive and suggest anyway!

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Wouldn't mind something like this, but I think SE would have to be careful not to make trash farming more profitable than killing bosses or you'll see runs that kill up until the boss then leaving.

Perhaps the reward for high chains could be calculated and rewarded after each boss or at the final boss.

I know a better solution to speed runs then making mobs drop tomes.

1 person agros a mob, everyone in the party gets agro. They only reset when everyone is dead without raise casted on them. So if anyone agros something it must be killed or it just kills everyone 1 by 1. Not sure why they didn't do this in the first place.

Either that or make it where the boss areas can only be entered if you have no enmity on the party. (other way would prevent exploits though)

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Originally Posted by Thalamant

Wouldn't mind something like this, but I think SE would have to be careful not to make trash farming more profitable than killing bosses or you'll see runs that kill up until the boss then leaving.

Perhaps the reward for high chains could be calculated and rewarded after each boss or at the final boss.

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Sure SE would have to be smart about this hypothetical system's implementation, but it's conceivable that it could be done well and result in a win-win imho.

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Originally Posted by DietMrPibb

I joined an AK group as a tank. DRG had lvl ~30 rings and weapon. BRD had ~20 rings a weapon. This group had 0% chance of killing any bosses. I'm not sticking around.

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I have to agree that pretty often you find people that are very badly geared... or simply don't know how to dps properly on their jobs.

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Originally Posted by Renik

...
we would take more time to get more tomes instead of doing speedruns, ppl wont be in a rush every time they enter in a dungeon, and this will also help to create a better community.
...
the tomes farming system needs to be reworked.

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Few points about endgame:

1. You cannot expect a player at endgame content to treat the said content in the same matter as someone who is doing it the first time.
2. At endgame, you class/job is already capped, so you gain no experience, be it killing bosses or trash mobs; therefore, the only reason for you to repeatedly to want to do the same endgame content is there is some sort of reward. In this case, the tomes.
3. When one can get that reward in 10 minutes, why would anyone wishes to spend 30 mins for it?

How do you propose SE to change this kind of mentality??

jc

speed runs cuz people want the gear fast cuz it could end up costing people more gil to kill everything if any deaths happen to the trash mobs but I do think they should add more gil to runs and them tombs from mobs could help but what would also help if the mobs don't reset even in death as in they hunt all players down and kill everyone full wipe every time

I have tried to do AK three times , all three times I have asked for for help on what we were going to do .
Not only has no one told me anything but even just running behind the tank and where he dies has been different all three times .
I have also had lag issues , so another issue I hope will be fixed tonight being I did not have this issue till the last update............

Heck one time I went in and everyone is getting hit like a out of control train is hitting them at max speed ..... Tank asked the 2 DPS to tank the adds and they were dead with in 2 hits and the tank in just got AF died died not to long after ..............after I died from the adds.

I have no issue with the speed run itself , I have a issue with no one seemingly doing it the same and the bad attitude if things do not work .

Simple fix came to mind
Do not allow players into Boss Zones while agro on them.

Also maybe take out that stupid money sink called Repair............

People are always going to focus on whatever is the easiest and fastest way to get what they need. This currently means AK speed runs. Now add tomestones to the chests and trash, unless it is equal to the total number we already get for the 3 bosses, you will not see a lot of people clear them as it will still be faster to do 2 speed runs then clear everything, but some people will be more willing to do it and not just drop like they do now.

Unless the devs make a stand and say, no you need to kill the trash and make a change to in dungeon agro mechanics, or make it so bosses dont spawn till trash is killed,people will continue to do speedruns in AK and anywhere else it is posible to do them in the future. If your not ok with speed runs, well then you should find a good FC who like to run dungeons and kill everything, they exist as there are enough people that feel that way.

As people have said before, there needs to be an INCENTIVE to kill trash, rather than just a penalty.
For example, in RIFT, before they added planar attunement xp, people would exploit small terrain glitches to skip chunks of dungeons and just kill bosses for dungeon marks, and eventually to just get their daily dungeon raid mark reward for finishing the dungeon.
Then they added PA xp, which was gained after you hit the lvl cap, and increased the amount of cash mobs dropped... suddenly everyone gets into the dungeon, switches to an aoe build, tank pulls multiple packs of trash mobs, and we mow them down, all the way through the dungeon.

So what changed?
Well we went from "trash is an obstacle that consumes time, resources, and give nothing back" to "trash gives useful xp and a bit of cash every time.... LETS KILL IT!"

Now SE needs to do the same thing here. The immediate solution, as stated again and again, is to add gil drops to dungeon trash mobs, and even better, make each "pack" of trash mobs drop 1 tombstone. So a group can choose between speed running AK for 40/80 myth/phil in 20 minutes, or clearing AK (all the trash) for 80/160 + more than enough gil to cover repairs and provide a profit, in an hour.

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Originally Posted by Ashgarth

Then dont design them so that killing monsters costs you gil instead of earning it. There is absolutely no reason to kill trash mobs besides doing it once to complete it the right way and enjoy the mechanics.
Who enters the wanderer's palace for the 20th time in a day thinking "Oh yeah! I'm gonna kill birds and bugs for 15 mins to get to the Gobbue and then pay 5 times what I earned here on repairs!"

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Of course this completely ignores the part where the tank is dying repeatedly doing speed runs and then having to pay for their repair bills. For every tank that is willing to speed run dungeons and absorb that cost, there should be a DD willing to run through a dungeon the intended way and not instant quit because they are worried about their repair bill. I've done my share of speed runs, but I've yet to have a DD volunteer to do the "death run."

Would like to have some more variety in level 50 dungeons.

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Originally Posted by FraenirVolsung

Of course this completely ignores the part where the tank is dying repeatedly doing speed runs and then having to pay for their repair bills. For every tank that is willing to speed run dungeons and absorb that cost, there should be a DD willing to run through a dungeon the intended way and not instant quit because they are worried about their repair bill. I've done my share of speed runs, but I've yet to have a DD volunteer to do the "death run."

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The sad thing is, depending on how good the group is, an AK speed run with the tank (me, 50 PLD) dying 3 times (priest, wall, devil rat thing), but with no wipes to bosses and strong dps, will cause me LESS gear damage than a regular clear with no wipes.
It seems that gear damage is caused by 2 things. Dying, and performing actions or using abilities. I have not bothered to do out the exact comparison, but in terms of gear damage, 1 death = X actions.
The thing is, in a speed run, 3 deaths + ~20-30 actions (flashes, circle of scorn, stun Dullahans, defensive CDs), end up causing LESS damage than the damage caused by however many actions I'd perform to kill trash. GCD is 2.5s, spend say 30 minutes actively in combat, thats 30x60/2.5, 720 actions in 30 minutes of combat... yeah that is a LOT more wear on my gear than 3 deaths.

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Originally Posted by FraenirVolsung

Of course this completely ignores the part where the tank is dying repeatedly doing speed runs and then having to pay for their repair bills. For every tank that is willing to speed run dungeons and absorb that cost, there should be a DD willing to run through a dungeon the intended way and not instant quit because they are worried about their repair bill. I've done my share of speed runs, but I've yet to have a DD volunteer to do the "death run."

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Tank should only die 3 times in these runs. That's a heck of a lot cheaper than clearing the trash. Or was before this maintenance.

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Originally Posted by Celestine

I hate when i wait an hour for a AK run and it ends up with two or three people that have never done the dungeon. Even worse usaully the dps's gear is so horrible that I know we have no chance to finish the dungeon so I tell them I'm leaving and then proceed to get flamed for being elitist.

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there are 3 chests before the first boss of AK, if you atleast get them to the jewelry box they have the upgrade of one item for a job as well get the pet to feel accomplished. Also on my server the pet sells for 30k.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

Would like to have some more variety in level 50 dungeons.

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AK
Wanders palace
praetorium
meridium
bahamuts coil
oh and the three primals
i have my schedule full
among the rotation of events including helping others clear content( to prepare for the 24+ man raids)
also CRAFTING

too much variety for me atm

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Originally Posted by FraenirVolsung

Of course this completely ignores the part where the tank is dying repeatedly doing speed runs and then having to pay for their repair bills. For every tank that is willing to speed run dungeons and absorb that cost, there should be a DD willing to run through a dungeon the intended way and not instant quit because they are worried about their repair bill. I've done my share of speed runs, but I've yet to have a DD volunteer to do the "death run."

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It costs (MUCH) less to suicide than to kill the mobs. A death costs 2% durability; the exp gained from those mobs is worth much more than that.

it's pretty amazing how people, simply because they have nothign to get at kill trash think is normal to avoid it..

well that not the point here, you want some fix? simple:

1) aggros is group based, not only one character
2) get the monster in this dungeon have a loot table. actually they almost all drop nothing
3) give us more than one dungeon for "farm" the token (i'm talking of the mythical one there)
4) reduce the damn freaking number of token needed!
5) get the craft mat out of the token vendor!
6) make each boss give Gils as a sort of reward for have kill/destroy it.
7) finally don't make the action drain the durability of the armor... or reduce it a loot.

if you do all of this... most of the trouble will be solved and everybody will be happy.


ps: before i forget get praetorium and castrum give reward, armor, weapon from the empire anything is good... to do this dungeon for only get 100 tome is... well you get the point.
you can't expect people do something for nothing...

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Originally Posted by MerlinOmniking

AK
Wanders palace - no point until you cap mythical for the week with ~8 runs of AK.
praetorium - significantly less tomestones than AK per time invested, and no gear drops.
meridium - see above
bahamuts coil - if you can get to bahamuts coil, you have no need of anything short of mythical, which means lol more ak.
oh and the three primals - until you get your weapon, then worthless (besides the miniscule reward)
i have my schedule full
among the rotation of events including helping others clear content( to prepare for the 24+ man raids)
also CRAFTING

too much variety for me atm

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If you have that much variety it's because you aren't interested in efficiency. I am glad for you, but that's not the way a lot of players play.


Wanderers should give Myth stones at the end.
Primals should give tomestones equivalent to their time investment vs. dungeon time investment.
Pratorium/Meridium should give gear rewards... seriously, why no drops in these places? Are they meant to only be played through once? It should also give myth.

Crafting is a separate issue and there are a great many DoW/M who have no interest in them.

Speedruns are not hurting the community.

As a healer i'm more than open to helping people learn boss fights, in fact i'll even accept a few wipes because hey everybody has to learn eventually. But if people aren't willing to listen or continue to do stupid things (get hit by repel, don't dodge AOE's, refuse to try and learn, etc) then I have no problem leaving because I don't have time to deal with that.

You guys act like speed runs are killing dungeons, but face it they aren't the problem at all. With or without speed runs you will still encounter groups or people that leave for various reasons. For example if i que for a 2 hour dungeon and get in and see that people are extremely undergeared, I may just leave right away because i'll take that 15 minute penalty over the countless wipes that will more than likely occur.

Here's solution to your problem: RUN WITH A FREE COMPANY OR LINKSHELL!!! I can't tell you how many times I've pugged AK... oh wait its ZERO. Why? Because i'd rather run with people i'm familiar with, instead of random players. Its nothing against the random players, but i'll take players I'm familiar with over a pug any day because its just easier. Its like this with every single MMO, pugging will result in stress/anger/fatigue/crankiness/etc because you risk the chance of getting people that are total idiots.

If you're level 50 and don't have a FC or LS then maybe you're doing something wrong, because every person I've ran into has been more than willing to give helpful advice and never once have they been a total jerk to me. The solution is simple, STOP PUGGING YOUR DUNGEONS! If you're going to do ifrit, garuda, titan, AK, or whatever just get some people from your server, check their gear, make sure they know fights (if somebody doesn't then teach them) its truly that simple. I fail to see how speedruns are killing the community, when really its pugging that's killing you guys. Stop pugging and your issues will go away I can promise you that!

Also i'm FOR speedrunning because I don't have time to kill every single trash mob, most of the time I can only get on for 30 minute to hour periods (sometimes 3 hours) and its easier for me to do some speedruns then have to kill every mob.


I took a brand new tank through AK today and helped teach them all the fights, and guess what? If i had tried to do that with a pug it would've never worked. So instead it was 4 of us from the same server and we did AK. No issues whatsoever.

Stop blaming speed runs for your issues, and start blaming pugging for your issues. Because every time somebody in my LS complains about a run we ask them "Did you pug it?" they say "Yes" and we say "Well that's why you're having issues".

Seriously every post I see blaming speed running for these issues is hilarious because the truth is when you pug you put yourself at risk for dealing with issues like this. Also i'm fairly certain WoW had something like this in Azjul Narob where you could skip a boss, and guess what? Nobody complained about it, was it ever 'fixed'? I don't believe so, and i'm glad it wasn't. The boss was pointless and after doing it a thousand times you get sick of it.


Also i apologize for a bunch of posts but this 1000 character limit is meh.

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Originally Posted by neverendingxsin

Also i apologize for a bunch of posts but this 1000 character limit is meh.

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That's putting it nicely. It's absolutely terrible! You can get around it by editing afterward, but that doesn't stop it from being a hindrance.

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Originally Posted by neverendingxsin

Also i'm FOR speedrunning because I don't have time to kill every single trash mob, most of the time I can only get on for 30 minute to hour periods (sometimes 3 hours) and its easier for me to do some speedruns then have to kill every mob.


I took a brand new tank through AK today and helped teach them all the fights, and guess what? If i had tried to do that with a pug it would've never worked. So instead it was 4 of us from the same server and we did AK. No issues whatsoever.

Stop blaming speed runs for your issues, and start blaming pugging for your issues. Because every time somebody in my LS complains about a run we ask them "Did you pug it?" they say "Yes" and we say "Well that's why you're having issues".

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noob question...whats pugging?...is that when you use pugilists or what?

So when i have to do a dungeon 10-20 times depending on the Item i need, I have to make a new player to the dungeon happy by spending over an hour slowly going threw the dungeon killing all the mobs (witch don't drop anything but some crafting items and its like a 15% DR for basic items) don't forget its lv 50 so no one needs EXP.) because they think its stupid to run threw a dungeon to get it dun in under 20 min so that I can continue on with the other 19 freaking runs i have to do. You people if you have any ambition for having a character capable of participating in End Game and new End Game you wouldn't care about speed runs. Its the Designers fault for not making the monster useful there in no reason for me to want to kill them at all. Why should i have to shout for a speed run party why dont you all shout for a "Nub First run Party"? so fucking deal with it . Oh and don't do a lv 50 dungeon with lv 20 30 gear just don't there level 50 for a damn reason. KthxBai