If you are a [JOB] without [Ability], you are holding back your team at endgame

Having seen the other thread regarding WHM...

What do you consider important for your class to have from your sub-jobs that is fundamental to providing the best performance and why?

I hear alot of people complaining when I'm playing scholar that I'm not using stoneskin. It's a level 34 conj ability, and we always have a white mage in raid so honestly it's pointless from a raiding perspective. That being said I do want to level swiftcast from THM for my summoner

Every job should have cure, because if people are losing life and you are not able to heal them, you are holding your team back.

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Originally Posted by Deathevan7

Every job should have cure, because if people are losing life and you are not able to heal them, you are holding your team back.

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Every job can't use cure

its now 2 weeks since game release dont expect all players got 2 or 3 classes lv50 by now

after i cleared the game story i stopped for that purpose to make the job im using fully potential + mastering the 3 roles

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Originally Posted by Deathevan7

Every job should have cure, because if people are losing life and you are not able to heal them, you are holding your team back.

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So true! Do a pro check on the tank next time your in a dungeon. If they dont have cure they arent pro :cool:

So you want me to level a Thurmaturge to level 26 just to get one spell? I am leveling the Arcanist right now to 15 to get White Mage and I am hating every minute of it (back to killing level 1 rats after healing in level 28 dungeons)! Ok, because this is an MMO and I know what is next, people won't group with you if you don't have it. No wonder the majority of gamers hate MMO's. Too bad I love them and love healing, if this is what I need to be the best healer I can be then I will do it.

This is what I put up in that other thread.

Posted in the other thread, but when DRG and MNK start coming to raids with Internal Release, Blood for Blood and Mercy Strike I'll start accepting their whines about not having swiftcast.

A SCH will need to get THM to 26 to get Swift Cast.
A WHM will need to get THM to 26 for Swiftcast and ACN to 34 for Eye for an Eye,
A MNK will need to get DRG to 34 Blood for Blood and Invigorate.
A DRG will need to get MRD to PGL to 12 for Internal Release.
A BRD will need to get DRG to 34 for Blood for Blood and PGL to 12 for Internal Release.
A WAR will need to get GLD to 22 for Provoke and PGL to 12 for Internal Release.
A SMN will need to get THM to 26 for Swift Cast.
A GLD will need to get CNJ to 34 for Stone Skin (luxury) and MRD to 8 for Blood Bath.

I think the biggest issue is that DPS are bitching about healers not having the whole kit, while happily ignoring that they haven't gotten all the cross skills themselves. This is especially worse if you're failing a dps race and blaming healers for not keeping you alive, or if you derp and get hit by a red circle and expect healers to carry your slack (which also contributes to failing dps races).


***Changed the list to one that is more 'base line' and doesn't include skills that require you to level up extra classes for minimal gain. For example, although SCH can use Stone Skin, in an 8man scenario with a WHM, you won't use it, however the same can be said for protect. Given that Protect, Sure Cast, Swift Cast and Stone Skin are the only real 'useful' skills, it may be worth working towards later for 4man content. Further, in regards to the Mercy Stroke debate, I thought I'd attach the follow quote.

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Originally Posted by MelianDoriath

I don't quite agree on Mercy Stroke. Usually on a boss that is near death on my Monk I can get it to hit for ~500-600 as a crit, which is quite a significant bit. It even beats out Snap Punch, which is probably the hardest hitting Monk skill. And it isn't always a "use once" mechanic, I've found time to use it twice on quite a few fights, most notably Cadeuceus in Turn 1 of Coil.

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It is also worth noting that some classes like MNK and DRG lack a 'useful' 5th cross-skill, so while Mercy Stroke is not likely to cause a huge impact, if you find yourself leveling up MRD it'll be worth cross-skilling when you unlock it. (right?)

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Originally Posted by Argurios

So true! Do a pro check on the tank next time your in a dungeon. If they dont have cure they arent pro :cool:

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Warrior cant use Cure because its not from MRD, GLD, or PGL. Best it can use is secondwind but it has a long cooldown.

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Originally Posted by Deathevan7

Every job should have cure, because if people are losing life and you are not able to heal them, you are holding your team back.

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you broke my sarcasm meter. well done sir.

cool thing about being a blm is we only have like 1 useful cross class skill and it's like lvl 2 hahah...shame our job skills are just as lackluster

be glad you have something to look forward to or work towards.

I am a paladin. I feel a few Marauder skills come in use for me such as the 20% defensive buff one, the skill that causes "bleeding", and the "life steal skill". I think the Pugulist has a skill that restores 20% of his HP that would be useful for me as well.

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Originally Posted by Jynxii

As Skairth pointed out, SCH need to get CNJ to 34 and THM to 26 to get Stone Skin and Swift cast.
A WHM will need to get THM to 26 for Swiftcast and ACN to 34 for umm... Eye for an Eye? (even I don't use this often).
A MNK will need to get MRD to 26 for Mercy Strike and DRG to 34 Blood for Blood.
A DRG will need to get MRD to 26 for Mercy Strike and PGL to 12 for Internal Release.

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BRD need to get DRG to 34 for Blood for Blood
SCH, SMN and WHM need to get THM to 26 for Swift cast.
WAR need to get GLD to 22 for Provoke

If you do not have those, then you do NOT have finished leveling your character. While it does not matter for AK, it is mandatory for every 8 man content.

I'm actually slowly leveling all my classes simultaneously for those cross-class skills, but that's just because I enjoy having all those abilities available to me. Seeing those empty additional skill slots in my Actions & Traits window bothers me, haha.

It is quite boring leveling THM, CNJ, and ACN all at the same time, though.

You definitely need PGL to 12 for Internal Release for Dragoon and prefferably to 42 for Mantra.
Mantra is amazingly useful because, despite what some bad healers would like to tell you, it's impossible to avoid all damage as a DD (later fights have explicit mechanics that do so, such as AV's goldlung, Titan's mapwide AoE, Ifrit's knockback pulse, etc) so you need to be sure to ensure your own survivability. Things such as Mantra and Chakra are both amazing since they are survival tools that you do in fact need.

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Originally Posted by Shori

Warrior cant use Cure because its not from MRD, GLD, or PGL. Best it can use is secondwind but it has a long cooldown.

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This further proves warriors are not as good as paladin. Cure or gtfo!! Switch to Marauder then if you have to!!!

Seriously, this is eventually going to turn into "You don't have all jobs maxed? Sorry you can't come with us, we need people experienced in all jobs even though we only need one job. You have to have the experience or you hold everyone back you filthy casual!!"

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Originally Posted by Thotor

BRD need to get DRG to 34 for Blood for Blood
SCH, SMN and WHM need to get THM to 26 for Swift cast.
WAR need to get GLD to 22 for Provoke

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Thank you for completing the list. I haven't dabbled enough with MRD/GLD/ARC, much less their jobs, to establish what the necessary cross-skills were. :)

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Originally Posted by RowanLauron

Seriously, this is eventually going to turn into "You don't have all jobs maxed? Sorry you can't come with us, we need people experienced in all jobs even though we only need one job. You have to have the experience or you hold everyone back you filthy casual!!"

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This made me laugh. It is only an issue because people are making it an issue. As posted in another thread, a WHM has completed all HM Primals without having Swiftcast, and I personally know one that has done it too. I also know a lot of DPS that haven't fully optimized their characters, and are either clearing, or cleared the HM Primals. If we were talking Bahamut's Coil it would be a different story, but some how I doubt we are.

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Originally Posted by Argurios

So true! Do a pro check on the tank next time your in a dungeon. If they dont have cure they arent pro :cool:

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Yeah...a Paladin with 4000+ hp who equips more marauder defensives instead of a 200hp Cure is definitely not pro.

With FATE grinding you can get to 26 in a day.

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Originally Posted by Deathevan7

Every job should have cure, because if people are losing life and you are not able to heal them, you are holding your team back.

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My BLM can't use cure but CAN use Physick which is strange since they are basically the same healing spell.

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Originally Posted by Jynxii

This made me laugh. It is only an issue because people are making it an issue. As posted in another thread, a WHM has completed all HM Primals without having Swiftcast, and I personally know one that has done it too. I also know a lot of DPS that haven't fully optimized their characters, and are either clearing, or cleared the HM Primals. If we were talking Bahamut's Coil it would be a different story, but some how I doubt we are.

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It's still true enough though. I've experienced it before. Because I had never tanked certain fights before, I was called scrub for not knowing the ins and outs of that specific part of the encounter. As a WHM, it's good to know how the tanking aspects work, but you don't have to have actually tanked it to make yourself a better player. A lot of people are taking this way too far as you said. It's quite sad really.

I'd rather have someone who plays their job well that's missing a few abilities that aren't 100% necessary over someone who has everything they need, but doesn't know how to work their job properly. There's a big difference.

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Originally Posted by RavenL

My BLM can't use cure but CAN use Physick which is strange since they are basically the same healing spell.

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Cure gives a 15% chance for your next Cure II to be free! :D

People need to chill out a bit. This game is pretty new, and honestly, I'm not sure you need swiftcast right now to finish endgame. But it's useful, and I'll be looking to pick it up once I get WHM to 50, botany to 20 so I can get weaver to 20 so I can socket materia. Then I need to probably get a craft up to 50 for my relic weapon.

After that, yeah I can swing down and get Swiftcast. Makes sense.

Seriously, people are not trying to piss others off by not having it. But some people have jobs, family and friends that at some time they have to go out and do stuff with. We will all get there, but until then, chill the f out mehn.

I knew the minute they added cross-class skills that min-maxers would become a very big issue. Expecting everyone to have everything is just ridiculous.

elitists are in every MMO, if you feel you don't need to skills they demand, then don't group with them.

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Originally Posted by RowanLauron

I've experienced it before. Because I had never tanked certain fights before, I was called scrub for not knowing the ins and outs of that specific part of the encounter..

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Yeah, I think most of us have been there at one point or another (although a lot of people forget that quickly), which is partially why it is funny, and as you mentioned, pretty much devolves to in the long run. I had a 'bad' MRD/WAR tank early in my healing career, however I had no understanding of how MRD/WAR tanks, so I really couldn't establish if he was actually bad or if that is just how MRD/WAR tanks were at that particular point in time. The worst part is, since FATE grinding is the fastest/best way to level after you main class, lots of people will level their tank/healers purely outside of dungeons, so the skill gap, or difference in understanding is likely to widen, thus even players using the specific class will lack understanding, much less other roles who sort of 'get it'.

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Originally Posted by Inosaska

I knew the minute they added cross-class skills that min-maxers would become a very big issue. Expecting everyone to have everything is just ridiculous.

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Min/Maxing is fine, the problem is expecting others to, especially if you haven't done so yourself. If you have time to be able to Min/Max in the first 2 weeks, then good for you. If you want to run with Min/Max'ers, you won't find a lot of them in Duty Finder, so find yourself an FC or LS, although this will actually require you to have min/max'ed yourself. Hell, I found myself a nice little group, who are far from Min/Max'ed, but are definitely clearing content. Again, the necessity just isn't there at the moment. Sure it makes things more 'efficient', but so does not standing in fire or getting hit by predictable mechanics. The amount of times you'll see the same person get hit by the same mechanic can be pretty unbelievable some times.

I am torn about this thread. On one side I am glad this discussion was brought up so that many who do not know about cross-class skills can learn to play more effectively. On the other hand, I don't see the need for the tone of this thread. What is to gain by wording it so negatively? It seems like these forums are so negative all the time...

Its gimped subjobs all over again :D

Swiftcast a MUST.. (I have yet to get thaum26 myself. but on the top of my list)

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Originally Posted by coffeepotz

I am torn about this thread.

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It started in the other thread where a DPS player accused WHM of holding groups back at end game by not levelling up THM to 26 and getting Swiftcast, which incidentally has been proven as a fallacy. Incidentally, the same person who essentially demanded that WHMs be min/max'ed by now failed to min/max himself, but put sole responsibility on WHM (and by extension, SCH) for runs not being as efficient or smooth as they should be, citing the lack of swiftcasted raises as the reason groups were failing.

This is probably why there is so much negativity laden throughout the thread, and you're right, there is definitely some decent cross-class skill info within.

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Originally Posted by Inosaska

I knew the minute they added cross-class skills that min-maxers would become a very big issue. Expecting everyone to have everything is just ridiculous.

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Let's not get carried away with the min-maxers. We're talking about jobs here. Jobs have a limited range of cross-class abilities they can pull from that probably aren't higher than level 34 on the other class. It's far from "everything" and farther from "ridiculous". If you are doing piddly nonsense content, it is perhaps unreasonable to expect that others have a strong rounded out job. If you are doing something that qualifies as "end game" at whatever point in time we're in (because the bar moves over time), then yes, it is perfectly reasonable to expect that the people you are playing with are doing all they can to contribute by having the appropriate skill-set, which in the context of this game (and the FF MMO franchises as a whole) means a dabbling here and there to round yourself out. FFXI did this also with sub-jobs and it's how the FF MMO franchises have decided to play it. You start with your base role, and then round it out by cherry picking stuff from elsewhere. Picking a few cherries is not the same as digging up the whole tree, in effort or time.

MRD and GLD would likely benefit from a lancer's Keen Flurry, it grants a nice increase to parry rates and it is a lower level skill too.

honestly speaking, i do not see whats the big deal with mercy stroke >>; sure, its a 200 potency attack off GCD, but that is only ONE 200 potency attack in the entire fight considering it can only be done below 20% and there is a whopping 90 seconds CD on it. I would say blood bath, although not a DPS improving skill to be much more crucial as it allows your healers to relax a little on healing your melee dps, unless they are already overhealing everyone, then its a different story.

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Originally Posted by Hawklaser

MRD and GLD would likely benefit from a lancer's Keen Flurry, it grants a nice increase to parry rates and it is a lower level skill too.

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GLD yea...but Pally, which is what matters when talking about cross class skills end game, can't use Lancer abilities.

BLM is the easiest class in the game for cross class. If you have a decent tank, all you need is Raging strikes which is free since you need ARC to 15 to unlock BLM anyway. If you want to get a tiny bit more effective, you can get Quelling Strikes to lower your threat generation but its not needed with good tanks.. Lastly you can heal for like 300 with Physic and allow for a small amount of mitigation with Virus and blood for blood. All in all, Raging Strikes will be plenty.

That being said, I'm working on ACN and ARC now to unlock everything because I'm a completionist.

Also have to consider this, (this is purely my opinion based off my own observations):

Jobs themselves bring enough utility and abilities to do what they are designed to do. So in theory, you don't have to use cross-class abilities to do what your job needs to do. Mainly what the abilities serve is to provide gap closers to make you even more effective, but it's not necessary. You have all the tools you need. The extra abilities just fine tune your performance. Again they are not necessary, but they do improve performance. I want that to stick out.

If your any class without triangulate... your useless in my eyes. Do you even math?

This is why end game is never what its cracked up to be. I already work 7:30 to 4, 5 days a week as it is. I got to level 30 on my lancer and had to level up the marauder for dragoon. And after the first 7 or so levels, it became work. It wasnt fun, it was just work. And i had the helm of light to help level and what not. When i get done with my paycheck job an di come to play ff14, i want to play and enjoy it, not be forced to level up a class i have no interest in yet. If im hearing that people are clearing with out these supposed "nesscary skills" And its comming from the white mages as well? Im going to take thier word for it and just stay out of fire circles of doom, or rocks as iv heard some bosses do. (thank you SE for putting our character level and class next to the post :D)

I don't really worry about what other players may or may not be missing. Maybe I'm lucky, but I've never been in a situation where the lack of an ability made everything fall part. Besides, I main MNK but don't have Blood for Blood. I don't really like LNC and I'm SLOWLY working towards it just because personally I would like it...eventually. I've never been called out on it though.

To be fair mercy "stroke" is just awful :)

I am not leveling all classes to 50 on my character. Essentially my plan is to get my tank what he needs for abilities, probably level two crafting professions and then roll an alt. I do not have the patience to grind out 50 levels with no quests for all combat classes in this game... maybe the crafting but certainly not the combat heh.

More relevant to the topic... tanks need any and all useful CD's that the other tank class has. Also for a paladin, picking up stoneskin wouldn't hurt just in case you do not have a whm/cnj in your group.