[dev1015] A Potential Method Of Solving The Disunity In This Game's Community

I usually don't like giving suggestions when a game is still fully in development. But due to the recent arguments and disagreements of "casual" and "hardcore" players I thought there may be a slight chance this idea can help bring the community to a whole and increase the customer satisfaction.

In order to please both types of players the "casual" players should still be able to play the game they like and have a reasonable survivability in both PvE and PvP (if it were implemented).

If they make a series of "hardcore" raids or dungeons which have a high difficulty and low drop rate for certain unique equips they might make the game satisfying for both crowds.
For example "hardcore" dungeon A drop rare equips which are vital for "hardcore" players to survive in "hardcore" dungeon B. And "hardcore" dungeon B drops even better and rarer unique equips which are vital to survive in "hardcore" dungeon C. This can go on until most of the "hardcore" people are satisfied with the amount of difficulty and timeconsuming content.

As a "casual" orientated type of player I don't have any interests in the above described "hardcore" activities I have suggested as long as I can function in normal PvE and PvP. Maybe the same goes for most "casual" players so that this might be a possibility for the developers to please every type of player..

Since I'm no developer nor have any experience in the process of making a succesful game, I obivously don't know if this suggestion is possible in terms of implementation and balancing.
I'm also quite new to this forum so I don't know if this has been suggested before.
Please respond and tell me what you think.

Hard dungeons are coming. I don't know if they are tiered or not.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

Everyone can rest assured that the raid dungeons and content that we're planning to implement in the future will feature not only tough battles, but also challenging and exhilarating bosses. The nitty-gritty details are tied into the future rollout of Grand Companies which we'll be announcing the juicy particulars of at a later date. I hope you're all looking forward to it with bated breath!

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There is no disunity of the game community into casual players and hardcore players. It's just a misdirection by a few people who are mad this game isn't a copy of FFXI. They are very clever and have pulled one over on you so well you posted this thread. The people I'm referring to don't want actual game content, just more masochistic rules because that is how they were trained to play by FFXI. Before FFXI they had never experienced anything like that, and that's why I feel it's not valid to get what they're asking for. I'm a hardcore player and I am looking forward to some great content but I don't need masochistic time sinks.

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Originally Posted by Thsscks

If they make a series of "hardcore" raids or dungeons which have a high difficulty and low drop rate for certain unique equips they might make the game satisfying for both crowds.
For example "hardcore" dungeon A drop rare equips which are vital for "hardcore" players to survive in "hardcore" dungeon B. And "hardcore" dungeon B drops even better and rarer unique equips which are vital to survive in "hardcore" dungeon C. This can go on until most of the "hardcore" people are satisfied with the amount of difficulty and timeconsuming content.

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I know where you're trying to go, and I will disagree with you on it. I'd prefer the old normal/hard mode switch before making certain content only for hardcores.

It stings a lot more when said content is story-relevant content. As much as people hate WoW, blizzard learned this lesson with their first expansion, where the 2% that were top-end raiders were the ones who saw the end of the storyline for The Burning Crusade, meaning that the other 98% of the playerbase effectively missed out on interacting with several important lore characters.

Sounds good to me! I don't see why 80 - 90 % of the game, including all the story content can't be accessible to the majority of gamers while still giving hardcore gamers something to work towards.

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Originally Posted by Alzelia

Sounds good to me! I don't see why 80 - 90 % of the game, including all the story content can't be accessible to the majority of gamers while still giving hardcore gamers something to work towards.

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That's the way I see it. FF games, at least the higher numbered ones, always make sure the ending can be seen by pretty much everyone. Then they have tons of sidequest that range in difficulty. i don't see why they could do something similiar here. I like having variety. I would probably try to do most of it.

But really, I think Yoshi-P has a pretty good idea of where he wants to head, and people just need to be patient and see what comes out before jumping ship and getting all worked up.

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Originally Posted by Chezen

But really, I think Yoshi-P has a pretty good idea of where he wants to head, and people just need to be patient and see what comes out before jumping ship and getting all worked up.

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making...too..much...sense!...jump...ship..before.....it's...too..lateeee!

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Originally Posted by Neptune

making...too..much...sense!...jump...ship..before.....it's...too..lateeee!

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lol :D

/10 char

i do not want to suffer through this bad mmo just to reach the end game in order to realize challenging content. i will quit long before that happens.

I just hope anyone can access this stuff. As long as it is a skilled and challenging fight. I dislike seperation of content where 1 a person who plays less time only gets to see 70% of the game while a person who plays longer can see 100% of the game.

Anyway I just hope these dungeons are fun. And I'm curious as to what they will look like. I kinda want a dungeon that has the same atmoshpere as dynamis did, a zone under constent dark weather, just make things look delapitated dark etc. Or a completely crystaline zone that is pretty.

or even a dungeon like a haunted house. sorry getting off topic :P

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Originally Posted by Duelle

I know where you're trying to go, and I will disagree with you on it. I'd prefer the old normal/hard mode switch before making certain content only for hardcores.

It stings a lot more when said content is story-relevant content. As much as people hate WoW, blizzard learned this lesson with their first expansion, where the 2% that were top-end raiders were the ones who saw the end of the storyline for The Burning Crusade, meaning that the other 98% of the playerbase effectively missed out on interacting with several important lore characters.

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It is not my idea of letting a major proportion of the playerbase miss out on relevant story content.
I think there can be "hardcore" raid environments and dungeons like the one's I have suggested without keeping a lot of story out of reach for "casual" players.
For example one of the bosses in those "hardcore" dungeons could be an ancient legendary guardian from a past society, which has slept for centuries underneath Thanalan. Which you as a "hardcore" player must defeat to gather relics from ancient societies.
These "hardcore" dungeons and raid environments can have mini stories which are intertwined with each other, but don't have any real influence on the attack of the Garlean Empire which I think is the main-story material with the companies.

Tiered dungeons like that tend to be problematic. Mythic had a shot at it with Warhammer Online, but it backfired on them quite hard.

To avoid being boring, content needs variety. If you have to repeat the dungeon A a lot of times to access dungeon B, and then dungeon B a lot of times to acces dungeon C, the process becomes much more tedious for most player than just being able to access dungeon A, B and C to begin with.

Basically, you created "Content X 3", and you gave your players only "Fun X 1", instead of creating "Content X 3" and giving "Fun X 3"
It's a big waste of resources compared to the result.

The only way to implement a tiered system that doesn't conduce to tedious repeatitiveness is to make the actual item needed to access the next tier drop for everyone at the first completion of each dungeon, but STILL have additional gear dropping in each dungeon. Se that the players have a choice, once finished each dungeon, to do the previous ones for gear or the next one for the novelty.

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Originally Posted by Thsscks

I usually don't like giving suggestions when a game is still fully in development. But due to the recent arguments and disagreements of "casual" and "hardcore" players I thought there may be a slight chance this idea can help bring the community to a whole and increase the customer satisfaction.

In order to please both types of players the "casual" players should still be able to play the game they like and have a reasonable survivability in both PvE and PvP (if it were implemented).

If they make a series of "hardcore" raids or dungeons which have a high difficulty and low drop rate for certain unique equips they might make the game satisfying for both crowds.
For example "hardcore" dungeon A drop rare equips which are vital for "hardcore" players to survive in "hardcore" dungeon B. And "hardcore" dungeon B drops even better and rarer unique equips which are vital to survive in "hardcore" dungeon C. This can go on until most of the "hardcore" people are satisfied with the amount of difficulty and timeconsuming content.

As a "casual" orientated type of player I don't have any interests in the above described "hardcore" activities I have suggested as long as I can function in normal PvE and PvP. Maybe the same goes for most "casual" players so that this might be a possibility for the developers to please every type of player..

Since I'm no developer nor have any experience in the process of making a succesful game, I obivously don't know if this suggestion is possible in terms of implementation and balancing.
I'm also quite new to this forum so I don't know if this has been suggested before.
Please respond and tell me what you think.

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But wouldn't it be better if they made content that 99% of people will utilise, rather than only 1%? If we weren't on such a short supply of content as it is, I wouldn't argue that the game should appeal to both players at once, but since we are quite starved of content, i think it is in SE's best interest to only release content that everyone can enjoy, and not jsut a small fraction of over-zealous FFXIV players.

If they want to reach out to different types of players, it would be more cost-effective just to make different servers, probably and just recycle the current content in different ways for the different types of players.

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

But wouldn't it be better if they made content that 99% of people will utilise, rather than only 1%? If we weren't on such a short supply of content as it is, I wouldn't argue that the game should appeal to both players at once, but since we are quite starved of content, i think it is in SE's best interest to only release content that everyone can enjoy, and not jsut a small fraction of over-zealous FFXIV players.

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Oh my god. Me and Gifthorse agreeing is scary.

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If they want to reach out to different types of players, it would be more cost-effective just to make different servers, probably and just recycle the current content in different ways for the different types of players.

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Phew. Safe.
Making different servers is just as cumbersome, resources-wise, as creating different content. Every patch needs to be implemented and customized for every ruleset, and even more, it needs to be tested in each environment. Having different ruleset isn't something a developer hard pressed for time and resources can really afford.

Wow has not seen old hardcore vanilla servers, you can bet FFXIV will not see Hardcore servers.

Plus if you wanna play a 1998 MMO EQ is still around, and so is FFXI

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

But wouldn't it be better if they made content that 99% of people will utilise, rather than only 1%? If we weren't on such a short supply of content as it is, I wouldn't argue that the game should appeal to both players at once, but since we are quite starved of content, i think it is in SE's best interest to only release content that everyone can enjoy, and not jsut a small fraction of over-zealous FFXIV players.

If they want to reach out to different types of players, it would be more cost-effective just to make different servers, probably and just recycle the current content in different ways for the different types of players.

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I'm not saying they should release it now and thereby neglecting most of the "casual" players who are also in need of content now.
They shouldn't divide the community even further in my eyes. We should embrace each others differences and try make something really special here.
Please don't see it with a black or white picture.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Tiered dungeons like that tend to be problematic. Mythic had a shot at it with Warhammer Online, but it backfired on them quite hard.

To avoid being boring, content needs variety. If you have to repeat the dungeon A a lot of times to access dungeon B, and then dungeon B a lot of times to acces dungeon C, the process becomes much more tedious for most player than just being able to access dungeon A, B and C to begin with.

Basically, you created "Content X 3", and you gave your players only "Fun X 1", instead of creating "Content X 3" and giving "Fun X 3"
It's a big waste of resources compared to the result.

The only way to implement a tiered system that doesn't conduce to tedious repeatitiveness is to make the actual item needed to access the next tier drop for everyone at the first completion of each dungeon, but STILL have additional gear dropping in each dungeon. Se that the players have a choice, once finished each dungeon, to do the previous ones for gear or the next one for the novelty.

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Maybe you are a bit right, that it could become a bit tedious or repetitive, but I'm no "hardcore" player so I can't really judge that.
And your version of this suggestion also seems to be quite good.
It shouldn't be that they have to raid the dungeon endless of times to be able to survive the next tier "hardcore" dungeon. But on the other hand, "hardcore" players shouldn't be able to rush all the "hardcore" dungeons really quick and easy. Since that would take away the "hardcore" aspect of it.
If something like this would be added to the game than it's up to the developers to find the right balance. So the "hardcore" players won't be bored for completing it really fast or find the difficulty and the drop rates impossible to deal with.

We have no idea what the dungeons will be like and we're already writing them off as casual? this topic is as bad as the hardcore vs. casual topics, and no offense intended...this whole argument is so stupid considering we don't even know what we're getting. People are acting like we got the bulk of the content that we're going to get when in reality we got a few reskinned mobs to keep us a little busy while they work on the real meat...what the hell is wrong with you people?

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Originally Posted by Mack

We have no idea what the dungeons will be like and we're already writing them off as casual? this topic is as bad as the hardcore vs. casual topics, and no offense intended...this whole argument is so stupid considering we don't even know what we're getting. People are acting like we got the bulk of the content that we're going to get when in reality we got a few reskinned mobs to keep us a little busy while they work on the real meat...what the hell is wrong with you people?

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Relax, there is no reason to accuse that there is something wrong with some people here.
I have never implied that the upcoming dungeons or raid environments will be "casual" only. I have even said in some topics, that "hardcore" players should have some patience until the actual dungeon and raid environment patches have been released.
And besides I like to stay neutral. I'm no "hardcore" player that wants everything to be difficult and time consuming, but I'm also not the type of "casual" player that desires everything to be handed out to me and always want have to to get uber overpowered equips for everything in the game.
I'm just suggesting something for the off chance that the developers haven't considered this idea yet. I personally want to make sure everything is being thought of. So we can help make the developers the best out of it.

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Originally Posted by Thsscks

Relax, there is no reason to accuse that there is something wrong with some people here.
I have never implied that the upcoming dungeons or raid environments will be "casual" only. I have even said in some topics, that "hardcore" players should have some patience until the actual dungeon and raid environment patches have been released.
I'm just suggesting something for the off chance that the developers haven't considered this idea yet. I personally want to make sure everything is being thought of. So we can help make the developers the best out of it.

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Its hardly an accusation, if anything you're the one accusing me of not being relaxed when in fact I'm such a mellow fellow :P I didn't meant to sound harsh if I did so I apologize but my point is still the same.

I'm really tired of all the bickering, when the forums first started I enjoyed reading information people had to share and if anyone could help another player. Developers would look at our post and see positive feedback, change things here and there but now I think they slightly regret putting these forums. It's down right punishment for people who have to read these forums even though it's there job to do so but to read all the negativity it's really heartbreaking and i'd hate to have that job. The development team are doing there job and so is Yoshi-P, the Hatred probably now outweighs the hatred players had for Tanaka. People want FFXI, I played it loved it but this isnt FFXI.. Every Final Fantasy title Varies and doesn't stay the same there are key elements but it's a brand new game. There's now a rivalry between casuals and Hardcore gamers but there's a point where we have to draw the line. I'm a hardcore player but i also have other responsibilities and if I can't get a certain item well I have to understand that i'm unable to because of certain constraints. if as a casual player I can't reach so and so then move on in a MMO there's always other things to do. Most casuals don't have the level of skill to do some of the hardcore end game stuff and some do, but in the end you have to realize that a MMO you have to spend time to experience the game itself. You can pick up any game in-store or online and play it through and realize you can either beat the game move on or explore the harder stuff such as puzzles or Foes that are over powered that require time spent and items gathered to beat it or just for fun. I'm not trying to wage war against the casuals or hardcore players but to come to an understanding. Hardcore can get theirs and so can casuals but you can't expect to get the same treatment as hardcores because they put in the work, no arguments about they have no lives because a majority do. Casuals can get same awesome gear but maybe of a different variety remember equipment really doesn't make a player awesome it's their level of skill that succeeds eventually. I love this game for what its worth and I know who is a casual player and who is a hardcore player and I still manage to say hello to them every time i see them. Hopefully this game will meet the needs of both types of players.. when I go back to school I know wont be able to achieve much as other hardcore gamers such as myself and when I see them I wont be bitter, I will congratulate them maybe and move on because in the future Eozorea will have alot more for me to do and will discover them at my own pace.