AOE Rings

Anyone else spot these?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ps9ffa1685.png

In a way, I'm glad that they're adding them...but a small part of me is a little teeny bit sad. Predicting mob behavior by looking at their body language was part of the fun of battle for me. Though I'm not mad that they added them.

I wonder if we'll be able to toggle it on or off?

Will there also be rings from party members? For Aoe buffs/heals? That would be nice. I remember people running off as I was casting things like stoneskin and stuff...I'd be like "Wait! Wait! I'm casting!" Maybe if they see a party member ring, it'll help?

Finding out a mobs AoE range in 1.0 wasn't that hard to do, but this does make it even easier. I think this change will fit in nicely. This low level FATE is the only evidence we have, though? I would definitely like to see some more examples.

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Originally Posted by Spy

"Wait! Wait! I'm casting!"

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Read that in Dr. Zoidberg's voice.

I like the feature!

Not a big fan of it for every mob/npc/player that does some AoE move. I think there are places where it could add to the mechanics of a battle, like the one in 1.0 where you had to avoid being hit from an Imperial Juggernaut AoE that had a target on the ground that flashed red. But, in general I just think it removes a lot of the challenge and learning process of mob AI. Instead of learning particular mob mechanics and anticipating moves, players just need to "avoid red circles on the ground at all times!"

Though, we don't know much about it so I'll reserve my final judgement until I see it in action.

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Originally Posted by Joshster

Finding out a mobs AoE range in 1.0 wasn't that hard to do, but this does make it even easier. I think this change will fit in nicely. This low level FATE is the only evidence we have, though? I would definitely like to see some more examples.

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Ifrit plumes were Cracks in the ground. those were good visual representations for "Get the hell out of the way"

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Originally Posted by Mjollnir

Read that in Dr. Zoidberg's voice.

I like the feature!

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http://i41.tinypic.com/jh7ke8.jpg

I'm happy to see this addition. The example they showed is in a FATE, which, will have tons of monsters in a small space. Being able to see when one is about to use a big AoE as opposed to having to watch 10+ of the same model for any slight variation is a good thing.

oh wow, that's great-

My question is- is the ring based on the AoE range of something the enemy is doing, or is it a visual aide to see what will be hit by an AoE you are about to cast?

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

oh wow, that's great-

My question is- is the ring based on the AoE range of something the enemy is doing, or is it a visual aide to see what will be hit by an AoE you are about to cast?

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Red is generally an enemy color, blue is player. I'd assume a blue circle would indicate a player AoE.

I'm quite indifferent to the thing. But if in the past you could be hit by an AoE attack you could be forgiven, now you can't! :cool:

I noticed them. They are both extremely convenient...and TOO convenient. I'm a little torn.

I'm impartial to it. I don't really "like" it, but I'm not gonna complain about it. I'll probably not even disable it if we have the choice.

It's appreciated. When you get into a large battle with 6+ people with tons of flashy spell effects, weapon skills, etc - it can be really difficult to see particular motions and things on monsters/players/etc. A floor AoE I feel is appropriate these days as long as ground effects don't become clutter.

I wouldn't want telltale stuff for every mob...I'd like it more for player abilities.

I don't really care either way for mob AOE but for players trying to heal and buff, this would be great.

I'm not normally a CNJ/WHM but sometimes I've had to fill in as CNJ/WHM for a few minutes here or there. I've found it very difficult to get people to stay within the area of buffs and heals, almost always missing one person who ran off too fast or was just too far away. This would be a great help to those of us who aren't professional healers or buffers, and also for people who have trouble knowing when to stand where to get buffed/healed.

Optional of course, as obviously not everyone appreciates these sorts of cues. Those of us who could use it however should definitely be able to!

I sort of which this thing existed in FFXI when I played Bard.

Except that if melee ran out of my song AoE it would shock the person IRL. Really. >:/

I'd like to see an animation on the ground or air, but that would probably use more resources than just a circle. Out of everything they've added, I think this is the one thing I don't like.

Oh well, though!

These circles probably only appear on AoE's that have a cast/charge time, and only during the cast/charge time. I think it's safe to say there will probably be instant-cast AoE's where it's completely impractical to put a circle on the ground.

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Originally Posted by Spy

Anyone else spot these?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ps9ffa1685.png

In a way, I'm glad that they're adding them...but a small part of me is a little teeny bit sad. Predicting mob behavior by looking at their body language was part of the fun of battle for me. Though I'm not mad that they added them.

I wonder if we'll be able to toggle it on or off?

Will there also be rings from party members? For Aoe buffs/heals? That would be nice. I remember people running off as I was casting things like stoneskin and stuff...I'd be like "Wait! Wait! I'm casting!" Maybe if they see a party member ring, it'll help?

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I'm glad for it and i want it. That being said, I think it's just an effect from an attack, though I could be wrong.

One other thing I noticed is the target-of-your-target display is on the right in that image, whereas it's on the left in english screenshots. Is this just because of the reading order? is it specific to JP language settings? or is there and option to have it be on the left or right?

umm, what video is that from?. could anyone link it?

latest live letter

I dislike this addition. It's a cheap way of telegraphing enemy attacks and screams low quality. I fear that if we are allowed to turn it off in the options then people that chose to do so will be at an extreme disadvantage due to developers not giving enemies proper animations or attack patterns that one can easily distinguish.

By allowing the "AoE Rings" you are as a community allowing bad quality in future updates.

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Originally Posted by Darkoon

By allowing the "AoE Rings" you are as a community allowing bad quality in future updates.

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While I am sure that you are competent enough to back up your rhetoric with 'sufficient evidence' of what this may or may not cause... until you actually do, I will reserve the right to consider this above post a work of fiction.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

While I am sure that you are competent enough to back up your rhetoric with 'sufficient evidence' of what this may or may not cause... until you actually do, I will reserve the right to consider this above post a work of fiction.

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It's already evident. The removal of elemental weaknesses instead properly balancing encounters is fact of poor design.

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Originally Posted by Darkoon

It's already evident. The removal of elemental weaknesses instead properly balancing encounters is fact of poor design.

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Oh, i see your lack of evidence as compelling evidence.

Please, do go on!

They must be very confident on the performance of the new netcode. AOE markers are the perfect way to determine when you're being hit and you shouldn't, because the server is lagging.

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Originally Posted by Darkoon

It's already evident. The removal of elemental weaknesses instead properly balancing encounters is fact of poor design.

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You should go check a dictionary for a definition of "fact", because it doesn't mean what you think it means.

Q29: Do you have any plans to implement elemental weaknesses/resistances? Also, please tell us why you eliminated these.

A29: There was already a lengthy response about this on the Beta forum, but to give you an example, if you are fighting Ifrit and his weakness is water, then classes and jobs that are proficient in fire would be excluded from participating. Since we want to make participating in content easy with the Duty Finder, we felt that this wasn't good and decided to get rid of it.

Is that not evidence enough that they chose the easiest way to design their game?

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Originally Posted by Darkoon

Is that not evidence enough that they chose the easiest way to design their game?

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No, it's evidence that they made a design decision to avoid marginalizing certain jobs with certain encounters, forcing people to level up all jobs if they want to see all the content in the game.

It's in no way any evidence that it was an "easy" decision, nor that it was a factually bad design choice.

What you personally like or dislike is in no way an indication of a good or bad design choice.

Hence the need for you to distinguish between fact and opinion. What you wrote has nothing to do with fact.

So you are saying that you are ok with SE removing not only a staple to the franchise, but a staple to the RPG genre as a whole?

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Originally Posted by Darkoon

So you are saying that you are ok with SE removing not only a staple to the franchise, but a staple to the RPG genre as a whole?

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What he is saying was that SE decided to remove it to balance the game. Not everyone has time or a want to level all characters and play them. SE want's to make the game enjoyable for all classes without the need to go into other classes solely on the fact there would be elemental weaknesses.

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Originally Posted by Darkoon

So you are saying that you are ok with SE removing not only a staple to the franchise, but a staple to the RPG genre as a whole?

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You don't make a good MMORPG with "staples".

As a matter of fact elemental resistances don't add much to gameplay. It's a gimmick. You'll notice it once, and then just never use the same spell on that mob again, meaning its influence on gameplay is near zero.

It's by no way worth the possibility of making certain jobs more or less wanted for certain encounters, giving players an obstacle in enjoying the whole content of the game.

And what I am saying is that SE is too lazy to properly design the encounters to accommodate all classes to be viable in all encounters, hence my claim in my first post in this thread

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Originally Posted by Darkoon

And what I am saying is that SE is too lazy to properly design the encounters to accommodate all classes to be viable in all encounters, hence my claim in my first post in this thread

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Okay Mr.NotsoLazy Tell me How you can go about adding elemental weaknesses without having elitist only use force people into using one class? Cause it will happen, 110% it will happen.

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Originally Posted by Darkoon

And what I am saying is that SE is too lazy to properly design the encounters to accommodate all classes to be viable in all encounters, hence my claim in my first post in this thread

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I'm sorry, but if there's a term that doesn't in any way apply to the entire history of Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn is "Lazy". What you're saying is inconsequential and inaccurate, and shows a dire ignorance on game design.

When talking balance, less is more. The more variables are added, the further from actual balance a game will land and the more the nerf/buff cycle will continue aggravating players. Considering that we're talking about something that is simply a gimmick that becomes absolutely irrelevant after casting the first spell, it's in no way worth keeping.

Well to get back on topic, I'm pretty sure you will be able to toggle them on and off. In the live letter it showed how many options the game has for gameplay and every other aspect. Not putting in a toggle for it would be silly. Hopefully there will be an option to toggle for players and mobs which I'm pretty sure there will be.

I'm ok with them as long as it doesn't reach GW2 levels of "Don't stand in the circle. LOOK AT THE GROUND"

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Originally Posted by LlenCoram

I'm ok with them as long as it doesn't reach GW2 levels of "Don't stand in the circle. LOOK AT THE GROUND"

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Too late, they are in game.

It existed for Ifrit. It existed for Garuda.

It is a means to allow you to play the game more, and read the battle log less.

It is a proven, solid tool. It will exist for ARR.

Enough said.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

When talking balance, less is more. The more variables are added, the further from actual balance a game will land and the more the nerf/buff cycle will continue aggravating players. Considering that we're talking about something that is simply a gimmick that becomes absolutely irrelevant after casting the first spell, it's in no way worth keeping.

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It doesn't have to be a gimmick, though.

Nor does it have to be imbalanced.

We're talking about an individual, in Naoki Yoshida, leading a team of 300+ designers and developers, who managed to not only take 1.0, turn the story in a new direction leading up to a conclusion that could have been the intended one all along (though we know it wasn't), it blended so well. Meanwhile, they were simultaneously re-creating an entirely new incarnation of the game practically from the ground up. And we're to believe that with all those minds, and all that creativity, experience and knowledge, not even a single person on that entire team could conceive of a way to implement the elemental wheel in a way that would be useful, even strategic, without imbalancing the game/classes/jobs?

Sorry. Not buying it. Not for a second.

Tell me it was an omission of choice - that Yoshi-P decided to do away with the Elemental Wheel simply because he didn't have any interest in it and I'll say "Yeah, I can believe that". But to say "we couldn't think of a way to do it without introducing imbalance", or "without it being a mere gimmick" seems more like a cop out to me. A half-hearted rationalization.

After reading this thread a few hours ago while on break at work and realizing that Yoshi-P's reasoning sounded off to me, I started thinking about it. I came up with a few ways that,even if not "perfect" on their face, could certainly be a solid base to build some feasible options from.

The first thing I thought was "Okay Yoshi-P's main concern was people being excluded from content for not having the right class/job with the right abilities/skills. So, whatever I think up, that consideration has to be at the root of it".

One solution I thought of... Choose skills from each Class/Job and assign each of them an attribute for one of the elements.

"But what about some attacks doing more damage than others?" Design them so that doesn't happen. Give each a ceiling of how much damage it can do.

Or, better yet, take the damage factor out of it completely. Make the use of Elements more about utility. Using skills/abilities/spells with certain elemental attributes, alone or in certain combinations, will have certain effects on an enemy, or the environment, or both.

It might weaken the enemy's defense. It might provoke a certain response or action out of the enemy which can be exploited for more damage. It might weaken the enemy's attacks, either certain ones, or all in general. It might stun, slow or otherwise enfeeble the enemy.

Perhaps the enemy would change elements throughout a battle, players would have to use the right skills to deal damage to it. Perhaps using skills, or combinations of skills (an enfeeble followed by a melee attack) at the right time will move the fight forward in some way. It might prevent the boss from performing certain actions. For example, using a combination of ice attacks on it at a certain point could temporarily "freeze" and prevent it from spawning minions, or shut down a more devastating attack.

Perhaps using certain elemental attacks or abilities affect something about the environment around the boss. Perhaps they play a part in solving puzzles or challenges required to progress through the dungeon, finding hidden pathways, accessing otherwise unattainable loot, etc.

The possibilities are countless.

To make sure no class/job is excluded, they'd design each encounter to ensure that every class/job has an ability for the required element(s) by the time they're of the level required to participate in the content. For example, if a level 35 dungeon requires alternating/timed use of Fire and Ice, make sure each class/job has at least one skill/ability attuned to each of those elements by the time they reach level 35, and make sure no one skill/ability is objectively "better" than any other.

Voila... You have a system that opens up myriad possibilities for how to implement elements into things, without any one class/job having to be excluded.

It's very possible. It needn't be merely a "gimmick", and it would add the possibility for a lot more variety and depth to encounters. More tools in the tool box means more options to work with, means more variety in encounter design.

Now, if I can sit here and think up a bunch of ways to make it work - and certainly there are other options I didn't consider - then there's no one who's going to convince me that Yoshi-P and his team couldn't come up with something. That is, unless they have no imagination... which is absurd. To say "There's no imagination at SE" would be like saying "water isn't wet".

So again. Want to tell me "he just didn't find the concept appealing for his vision of ARR and chose not to include it", then fine. I think it's a poor decision that only takes away from and homogenizes the experience, but I can accept it as such.

But to say "it couldn't be balanced" or "it would just be a "one-time gimmick" is a weak cop-out. This is SE we're talking about here, not some brand-new wet-behind-the-ears, first-time game developer.

Holy wall of text, batman. You're lucky if more than a handful are willing to read your novella of accusations against Yoshida's design.

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

Or, better yet, take the damage factor out of it completely. Make the use of Elements more about utility. Using skills/abilities/spells with certain elemental attributes, alone or in certain combinations, will have certain effects on an enemy, or the environment, or both.

It might weaken the enemy's defense. It might provoke a certain response or action out of the enemy which can be exploited for more damage. It might weaken the enemy's attacks, either certain ones, or all in general. It might stun, slow or otherwise enfeeble the enemy.

Perhaps the enemy would change elements throughout a battle, players would have to use the right skills to deal damage to it. Perhaps using skills, or combinations of skills (an enfeeble followed by a melee attack) at the right time will move the fight forward in some way. It might prevent the boss from performing certain actions. For example, using a combination of ice attacks on it at a certain point could temporarily "freeze" and prevent it from spawning minions, or shut down a more devastating attack.

Perhaps using certain elemental attacks or abilities affect something about the environment around the boss. Perhaps they play a part in solving puzzles or challenges required to progress through the dungeon, finding hidden pathways, accessing otherwise unattainable loot, etc.

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This was the only point in your eye bleeder that had some useful context, for which I ask the simple question:

How do you know these options haven't already been considered, or even implemented?

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Originally Posted by Darkoon

I dislike this addition. It's a cheap way of telegraphing enemy attacks and screams low quality. I fear that if we are allowed to turn it off in the options then people that chose to do so will be at an extreme disadvantage due to developers not giving enemies proper animations or attack patterns that one can easily distinguish.

By allowing the "AoE Rings" you are as a community allowing bad quality in future updates.

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rings or...... that one can easily distinguish what is the difference if its easy?
let me guess rings are too easy i bet!!