Let's talk: Advanced Jobs

There have been debates on what the new scholar looking character here could mean for the game, particularly because it is holding a book, originally conceived as the weapon for Arcanist/Summoner.

This thread is to discuss an outside possibility: Advanced Jobs.

How could this work? I'm glad you asked!

First, we know that there are 9 guilds so far across Eorzea.

• GLA/PLD
• LNC/DRG
• MRD/WAR
• PGL/MNK
• ARC/BRD
• MSK/?
• THM/BLM
• CNJ/WHM
• ACN/SMN

The concept here is that at first, in one of the ARR patches, they could implement 3 advanced jobs, that are effectively a hybrid of disciplines, one from each city to promote variety:

• GLA/PLD-------\
• LNC/DRG-------->--->DRK
• MRD/WAR-----/

• PGL/MNK------\
• ARC/BRD------->---->THF
• MSK/?---------/

• THM/BLM------\
• CNJ/WHM------->---->SCH
• ACN/SMN------/

The idea being here that once a player has mastered the 3 jobs, they would gain the option to unlock a new job.

Whether an advanced job would use the same rules as its predecessors, is still up in the air:

• Would it be allowed to equip and use any of the weapons of its requisite jobs?
  (Support is strong for this, plus occasional lv & relic additions which are unique)
• Would it begin at level 1 or level 50?
  (edit: overwhelming support is to begin at level 1)
• Would it be able to use abilities from its requisite jobs?
  (edit: support is to have most abilities be different, while borrowing some allowed)
• What new special abilities would it gain?

I am really very interested in how people could see this sort of concept, fully fleshed-out.

Also, if tweaks or additional ideas come up, I will update the OP.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

...[*]Would it begin at level 1 or level 50?
...

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this seems like the big enchilada here

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Akubikumo

this seems like the big enchilada here

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Please, expand on this ^^

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Please, expand on this ^^

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Well the big issue with a single class stemming to two jobs is that they're level-locked together. Meaning if they released a new job for.. say... PGL, like 95% of us would have it at 50 without killing a single mob.

So if the advanced classes work the same way, what's the point of doing it this way?

If they don't... well, then it could be a really cool idea.

it seems like the one issue thats the most game-changing. new abilities are a given, weapons are flexible. but starting a new job at 50 seems liek it would cause all sorts of problems for players AND devs

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Please, expand on this ^^

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I think Akubi means that it's a biiig (what's the worrrrd><) talking point? problem, obstacle? I'm not sure.. it's a big SOMETHING because people were irked when they would say unlock MNK for example and it'd take on the job level of its main prerequesite class (In this case PGL).

I'm loving the diagram in the OP, it's a really nice way to open up yet more classes but with say 3 prerequesite class, I'm not sure how it'd work out in terms of deciding which of those should be the main prerequesite class or if the advanced job should in fact start from level 1.

Honestly, I don't mind more jobs to level from one, I have all my battle/magic classes to 50 already (Bar arcanist coming at release); so a little extra on my plate won't hurt at all to be honest, but I can see that some newer players might be a bit saddened with having even more to do to 'catch up' so-to-speak.. though that's kind of a non-issue I think, XI managed just fine, though their system was completely different (my point here is the number of jobs to level in total, not the style before someone witch hunts me for mentioning XI XD)

Personally, I would like to see even more advanced jobs that utilize multiple pre-requesite classes, just like you've listed up top OP. I don't mind either way if I have to level them from 1 but it would be fun to be given something extra to do, but if they add more base classes then I'd get my wish :p

I hope you all have a wonderful day!

Edit: Akubi replied just before I'd posted mine haha, sorry for stepping on your toes with my derpy clarification, have a great day!

Thanks for the replies ^^ updated OP including the overwhelming support for it beginning at Lv 1.

I think the advanced jobs should be level 1 honestly. I always felt they were implemented in 1.xx the way they were due to time constraints and the EoL of the game ever looming. They didn't want to have people have to level 7 classes all over again and eat up tons of time not getting to play them at end game.

They had a pretty good cover by making them "advanced jobs" which are strong in the history of the FF series of course. But even in previous games where you got advanced jobs you had to start back at level 1 for that job. What they really created for 1.xx was more in the line of "prestige classes" where you keep your level but gain some additional abilities along the way.

For ARR I would love to see them return to the old form of the "advanced jobs" being more sovereignty as far as levels go while still keeping the relationship to their base classes.

I also like the idea of having multiple classes involved rather than just two. It gives more room for creating more of the FF classes we've seen in the past. Geomancer could be a combination of GLD/THM/CNJ, RDM could be THM/CNJ/ACN, or something like that. The DoW and DoM would not have to stay in their own seperate sections.

I know the way they implemented advanced jobs in 1.xx was pretty similar to how I think most of us figured it would be done even back in beta stages pre 1.0 launch. I remember many discussions of this same vein back then too. I know many people have expressed a desire for them not to use more than two classes in combination. I again will state I feel like this is limiting. If they use more than two it gives them a much broader brush to paint with. They can solve the issue of "I don't want more advanced jobs at level 50 already" problem by simply making advance jobs revert back to level 1. It would be more true to the FF spirit anyway. And isn't that what they are constantly saying is one of their big focuses for the game in general? I think it would make things fit a lot better and feel more in the vein of the FF series. Why exclude some of the awesome jobs of the FF series because there simply isn't a way to create it out of two of the base classes. Sure this can partially be remedied by the addition of new base classes as we know there will be, but I feel it would still be choosing to limit themselves.

I also like the idea of having the initial advanced jobs being a part of a next tier of advanced jobs as has been the traditional path in FF. This is something that I actually always wished for in XI and I feel that the armory system lends itself even better to this line of progression. After mastering the weaponry and martial skills of a certain pairing of jobs/classes you unlock the ability to train in the arts of a new job. Something like this is what I've had in mind.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

• GLA/PLD-------\
• LNC/DRG-------->--->DRK
• MRD/WAR-----/

• PGL/MNK------\
• ARC/BRD------->---->THF
• MSK/?---------/

• THM/BLM------\
• CNJ/WHM------->---->SCH
• ACN/SMN------/

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Mind blown...

Interesting.

/goestomakeagraphofthis

Posted this elsewhere, nice expansion of the idea.

http://daevaofwar.net/uploads/galler..._2_1_24151.jpg

I...don't like this. There's just something about it that seems considerably off, I think its how your new jobs would essentially be different (read:better) than the old jobs, and thus either restricting combat variety in parties, or running into the "Unstoppable THM" situation again.

Another alternative is this:

http://daevaofwar.net/uploads/galler..._2_1_48757.jpg

Personally, I believe there is a class for SCH that hasn't been announced.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kallera

I...don't like this. There's just something about it that seems considerably off, I think its how your new jobs would essentially be different (read:better) than the old jobs, and thus either restricting combat variety in parties, or running into the "Unstoppable THM" situation again.

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While a DRK could pull off solo using drain abilities, it is still a job with limitations to what it can fight, and therefore would excel in a balanced party. Just like a THF could use sneak to get off a major attack solo, but would better serve a role behind the enemy in a party.

I'm not suggesting that this would replace jobs, but become a welcome role, filling missing niches in the current party dynamic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

Personally, I believe there is a class for SCH that hasn't been announced.

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Its the least messy option

I didn't expect the 1:1 specificity of weapons > classes > jobs to become a hit with me, but in practice it's very clean and gives a sense of identity to everything. The markets are easier to browse, cross-class "subjob" abilities are easier to plan and pursue, etc. I'd be disappointed if "advanced jobs" became a thing.

Even the LV30 requirements in FFXI were a bit much, imho. New players didn't understand, "Level one of the big six so you have something useful, then go back and level auxiliary jobs that require basic experience or aren't always able to fit into the party." They just saw, "I want to be a ______ and I can't," and by the time they'd done the bare minimum to unlock and level it, it became obvious why it was this way long after things had become difficult and it was just a negative experience overall.

I'm hoping, as Mog said, that IF Scholar is coming soon, it has its own class. This is still iffy because the first image could be fake and the new artwork of the "Scholar" wields a book like ACN/SMN, but maybe one wields "tomes" and the other wields "grimoires," whatever; no different than CNJ and THM having "Canes" and "Staffs;" same reason BRD and RNG could have Bows and Great Bows or GLA, THF, and DNC could have daggers, anlances, and poniards.

Anyway, I digress; thanks-but-no-thanks on advanced/combined job trees.

I have heard talk of the system being implemented like that.
Personally I like it.
It could even pave the way, for an even more advanced bracket of jobs.
Regardless, call me Pokemon, cause I gotta have em all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

Another alternative is this:

http://daevaofwar.net/uploads/galler..._2_1_48757.jpg

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'

This is pretty much what I'm betting on. As seen here.

I believe that they already intend for more than one advanced job to come from each base class. Obviously there's no sure confirmation but it is just a vibe I've been getting from listening and reading.

The part with advanced tiers and jobs combining to make those higher tiers is far less likely I think. It is something I think they could do a lot of specialization with. The higher tiers don't necessarily have to be more powerful, but perhaps be more specialized to a certain task. It could also open the door to jobs that are more hybrid in nature. Not necessarily excelling in a single field but being solid in more than one role. That would mean some reworking of current class/job roles and such and I think that alone makes it much less likely. The door could always remain open for this sort of thing though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xeia

Well the big issue with a single class stemming to two jobs is that they're level-locked together. Meaning if they released a new job for.. say... PGL, like 95% of us would have it at 50 without killing a single mob.

So if the advanced classes work the same way, what's the point of doing it this way?

If they don't... well, then it could be a really cool idea.

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Yoshi-p said that one of the idea he doing and he even give out a example of

Base Class MRD + THM = Darklight

So it could end up happening so some people may get piss at the fact that you don't have to level. But then again FFXIV was never really base on level it's all about endgame. Top of that there always going to be added new class so people could always level that up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zenaku

Yoshi-p said that one of the idea he doing and he even give out a example of

Base Class MRD + THM = Darklight

So it could end up happening so some people may get piss at the fact that you don't have to level. But then again FFXIV was never really base on level it's all about endgame. Top of that there always going to be added new class so people could always level that up.

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2 things:

1. Darklight?
2. If you mean Dark Knight, I'm pretty sure the reference was GLA getting PLD or DRK, but not both.

If you know the link, I'm pretty skeptical his quote was ever MRD based.

Don't really want to see a "third tier." would rather see multiple jobs branching off a single class.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

Personally, I believe there is a class for SCH that hasn't been announced.

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This is what I feel is most likely.

Loremaster! Lorekeeper? Loremonger...

Librarian?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mjollnir

Loremaster! Lorekeeper? Loremonger...

Librarian?

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I'd bet on Mystic (another word for occultist, as well as one of the "unused" class names)

I don't remember where i read it... but weren't the Spriggans supposedly Mystics and the stones they carried was a Mystic's weapon/source of power?

Mystic does sound plausible yin-yang user, dark and light, black and white.

I would say that the base classes (Gladiator) branching off into multiple Advanced Jobs (Similar to Skill Tree) seems most likely.
GLD (PLD/DRK)
MRD (WAR/BST)

The reason I think having the Jobs move into Advance Jobs such as the layout in the OP is that endgame will look like this.

SCH x 2 + THF x 2 + DRK + 4 -> Given the idea that all Sub Jobs skills will be available to Advanced Jobs + New Advance Job Skills

That is unless they take it all the way and have an Advanced Job for each pair of Job classes.
(BLM + BRD = Dancer)
(DRG + WHM = Holy Dragoon)
(PGL + WHM = Oracle)
(GLD + BLM = Geomancer)
etc, etc, etc,
Which would be huge. Possibly too huge.


Edited: (Didn't have my morning coffee yet)
Either way would be good. Jobs moving to advanced jobs 3 into 1 would eventually provide more than 3 new Advanced Jobs anyways.

Example
•GLA/PLD-------\
•ARC/BRD-------->--->Enhancer
•MSK/?RDM-----/

•PGL/MNK------\
•CNJ/WHM------->---->Blue Mage
•ACN/SMN---------/

•THM/BLM------\
•LNC/DRG------->---->Templar
•MRD/WAR------/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

I would say that the base classes (Gladiator) branching off into multiple Advanced Jobs (Similar to Skill Tree) seems most likely.
GLD (PLD/DRK)
MRD (WAR/BST)

The reason I think having the Jobs move into Advance Jobs such as the layout in the OP is that endgame will look like this.

SCH x 2 + THF x 2 + DRK + 4 -> Given the idea that all Sub Jobs skills will be available to Advanced Jobs + New Advance Job Skills

That is unless they take it all the way and have an Advanced Job for each pair of Job classes.
(BLM + BRD = Dancer)
(DRG + WHM = Holy Dragoon)
(PGL + WHM = Oracle)
(GLD + BLM = Geomancer)
etc, etc, etc,
Which would be huge. Possibly too huge.

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I think the thing people are looking to do is provide an excuse for someone to level said new job once more. Remember that jobs share the experience of the class that they are based on.

So how would these advanced jobs affect endgame gating, raid progression, and class viability?

Right now, Jobs are designed to be "specialized" versions of a class, meant to perform better at a narrower role, best suited to group and raid content.

Out by yourself, use a base class to have more options and abilities to mix/match as needed.
Out with a partner, still probably use a base class and throw in a heal.
Out with a group, use a job to maximize your contribution in your specific area (heal/dps/tank).
Part of a raid... this is where things get messy...

So lets say that Advanced Jobs are for raiding. They need to provide some incentive to unlock, level, and use over regular jobs. So the advanced job needs to heal more, hit harder, tank/control better, otherwise there is no point in using it over the normal job.
But if we make advanced jobs simply superior to normal jobs, then a player with an advanced job will likely never use the normal job again... why would they, its a weaker option. This would also cause a degree of player segregation in raiding, those who have unlocked and leveled their advanced job, and those who have not, and are therefore weaker raiders.

I suppose that IF advanced jobs must be the stronger options that a player has, then there should be a locking/usage limitation. For example, advanced jobs can only be activated when inside of a raid instance/dungeon (would be pseudo leveled somehow). This would still handicap newer people who do not have the advanced job leveled for raiding, but it would prevent advanced jobs from being superior for all content.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kallera

I think the thing people are looking to do is provide an excuse for someone to level said new job once more. Remember that jobs share the experience of the class that they are based on.

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I was hoping that's how Jobs were going to be when they first came out, but I think that keeping the same level and doing quests in order to unlock the full potential of the Job is a way better route. Doing quests that explain the role/story behind the Advanced Job is way better than starting at lvl 1 and grinding IMO. Although I hope the upgrade to an advanced job is more immersive and story driven in ARR.
For instance, have a new story quest every couple levels that reward Traits as well as Skills.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

2 things:

1. Darklight?
2. If you mean Dark Knight, I'm pretty sure the reference was GLA getting PLD or DRK, but not both.

If you know the link, I'm pretty skeptical his quote was ever MRD based.

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ya i mean dark knight i was looking up darklight at the time that i was putting this up lol. I think he said MRD+THM= Dark knight like GLA +WHM= PLD i'm sure they be a 3rd class to go with that maybe Lancer or something.

i can't find the quote was a while back lol so i guess you just say skeptical. I could be wrong he could have said GLA it was such a long time ago but GLA make no sense to have DRK it make more sense for MRD to have it or maybe a new class all together.

I demand a more in-depth explanation of how you think such a system would be truly unique, effective, balanced, and whether or not it makes any sense. Although, to expand on this idea, perhaps you could also marry the DoL and DoH to be able to add certain properties and dimensions to battle; FSH/"SCH" for instance, would be a an Advanced Job of many different combinations on account of the Adv. Job being "unlocked."

Then let's say... FSH/SCH is able to have more familiarity with water and wind, or perhaps more damage to Scalekin and things fish-related; or MIN/PLD could have upped defense due to their familiarity with say... Ice and Stone so they're more capable of upping their own defense b y some....means...

Or let's imagine ALC/SCH could be something akin to an Alchemist/Creator from Ragnarök Online if you can imagine throwing magical alchemical potions at things and watching them explode like Acid Demonstrations on a Paladin before "renewal."

Or even ALC/SCH could be a potion-throwing, heal casting monster.

Then again, think of the major cost of production in complexity of such a system alone. It might be a while until a game can successfully develop a game that is able to have a high degree of complexity, a healthy balance between a broad band of class/job combinations, each combination a little unique to everything else combat-wise, practical, and be able to afford the technical know how to get such an accomplishment any chance of happening. Then again, if you consider the six hundred or so employees they've had working on FFXIV:ARR at one point (Which was rumored to include people "supposedly" working on FFXIII Versus), plus consider how much work they've supposedly done to the game while "a lot more" is in store. If you also consider the fact that the Companies Honor is at stake, they're trying to each back their customer's trust, and the likelihood that they're burning the midnight oil on a regular basis.

TL:TR

It's possible due to their huge number of employees and other factors, however unlikely.