This is going to be very difficult for me to articulate properly to the masses but nevertheless I'm going to give it a shot. I know that I'm going to be met with some resistance, which is understandable, and that some are just going to outright dismiss what I have to say on the grounds that this type of thing has been discussed before.. but here it goes...
To start off I just wanted to say that I like the armoury system.. is it perfect? Not at all.. but can it be perfected with a little work? Yes it can.. to outright do away with it would be an extremely silly thing. It has so much potential for solo play and just in terms of job diversity that I don't want to see it go.
There are so many combinations and possibilities for unlocking new jobs that it actually excites me and makes me want to level classes and jobs that I normally wouldn't. Eventually for more advanced jobs you could get into having to have an actual job at level 30 or 50 and another job or class at level 15 or 30. As the level cap raises there is more potential for more interesting things.
Now to get into what really matters to me. The one thing that really worries me about this game above all else. The one thing that I think could actually harm it in the long run and be its eventual downfall.. the way in which jobs and classes are linked. I've tried to be open minded with it but I simply can not see it working.. and I can't see it building any interest in any new jobs as long as it exists.
Don't get me wrong.. when the first wave of jobs were implemented it was something that could be tolerated simply because there was, for the most part, nothing else... in the future I just can't see it helping the game.. especially if we are sticking to the current armoury system.
I don't want to imagine playing ARR and when a new job is released I'm automatically level 50 with a wealth of abilities to acquire. It simply takes all of the fun and interest out of learning how to play.. there is absolutely nothing to look forward to. Sure.. you could work around that, but then you'd have to implement a new class for every new job and that presents a whole different set of problems and just further restricts the games potential.
I try to look at things logically.. and logically I can't see them starting jobs at level 1 after you acquire them. They would have to create so many more basic abilities that already exist on different classes and create more quest lines to unlock more job specific abilities before level 30. Not to mention it would set the launch of the game back a few more months most likely...
Now what could work is starting jobs at level 30.. granted I don't make games and have no idea how long it would take. But I do believe it wouldn't take as long as what I said above... it would fix everything.
I know some of you won't agree with me. But for the good of the game jobs and classes needed to be leveled up independently of one another. I truly want this game to succeed.. and I understand there will be things that I do like and things that I don't like. This I do not like.. but don't get me wrong. I don't want to change it simply because I don't like it, that's extremely selfish and stupid. I want it to change because I want this game to last for many years and do as well as it can..
The level link between Jobs and Classes
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11-29-2012, 08:13 AMNoctisXZThe level link between Jobs and Classes
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11-29-2012, 08:32 AMRenen
So, u want a core part of the game to be reworked?
Devs MIGHT listen to small suggestions, but not this. -
11-29-2012, 11:45 AMNoctisXZYes.. if it means that ARR can sustain a large enough player base over the span of many years than that's exactly what I want.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renen
As it stands right now I just can't see that happening with the way classes and jobs are currently linked together in terms of level. With the way things are currently a great deal of the interest of having a new job is taken away by the simple fact that by the time they're released everyone will already be level 50.. there would be no growing with your job and learning the ins and outs of it.. where is the fun in automatically being level 50 anyway? Not to mention that unless they had a new class along with each new job than that would mean that a great deal of the world would become barren and dull. No one would be leveling after a certain point because they've already maxed out all of the classes, hence.. with each new job, unless they added a class/job each time, that would also be level 50.
I don't want to play in a game where I can't level with other people because EVERYONE is already level 50. I don't want to play a game where it becomes impossible to do mid-level content after a certain point because EVERYONE is already level 50 and there is no point to it.. and I certainly don't want to live in a world where most of it is dead save for the few endgame areas.
I've tried to see the positives of keeping things the way they are.. but I can't see any at all. The negatives on the other hand keep stacking up. It might not be an immediate problem.. but if this game is to have a future than at a certain point it will become a HUGE one.
I'm not bringing this up simply because I don't like how things are now, even though I don't, but because I want this game to last as long as 11 has and be a success.
I've thought about it extensively and the one solution that I can think of that can keep the game somewhat on track and fix this little soon to be big problem is to have jobs start out at level 30. Or whatever level the main class/job used to unlock it is.. that way you don't have to go back and add extra abilities on top of the new ones already being added and it won't affect the quests and story already set up for each job.
I don't develop games or have any idea how long it would take to change something like that.. but it couldn't take as long as having to go back and add new content. You aren't adding anything to the game.. just removing the algorithm used to have classes and jobs level up together. So how long would that realistically take?
Having classes and jobs linked together in terms of level just isn't going to work in the long run.. they need to be independent of one another. -
11-29-2012, 05:04 PMWinnipegJet
Long as they add a new class along with each job it won't be a problem really.
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11-29-2012, 05:12 PMShougunUntil there are so many classes that clash and incompatibility proliferate the system and balancing becomes a nightmare beyond even the best strategy and mobas consider.. XDQuote:
Originally Posted by WinnipegJet
I think the only sustainable response without crashing the current system is to introduce asymmetry.. (discussed in another thread) not my suggestion but its the best worst option imo. -
11-29-2012, 05:46 PMKraggy
For me the original concept was fine, sadly too many XIV players were stuck in XI mode and wanted to feel unique snowflakes in whatever 'role' they played, so they complained about the 'multi-classing' nature of the game as it was released.
Sadly SE caved in to this demand for retro-style character development and we went back to an XI-kinda structure, but without the simplicity of XI's job/subjob structure.
Worst of all worlds, it didn't appeal those who liked the more free-form character construction of the original nor to those stuck in the 2002 world of rigid 'dual-classing'. -
11-29-2012, 05:48 PMShougunAgreed ( mostly - Yoshida himself wanted classes to be more structured ). It screwed a lot of its pros and just introduced more cons XDQuote:
Originally Posted by Kraggy
put that jackie chain mind blown image here.jpg
Why not just tell everyone you are scrapping the system.. or dont and keep what made it good.. lol -
11-29-2012, 08:58 PMSakasa
Well even if they don't add a new class with every job they system and there statements of questing for more abilities, it is possible they can force content completion similar to forcing xping. For instance let say they add red mage to gla and sniper to arc in one update. Because of the addition together they could add long expansive quest lines that require other events such as dungeon completion behest, specific fetch quest, so on and so forth for the stronger abilities and in addition add new abilities to the other jobs that require the same. Its a cheap tactic yes but it allows for more writing and lore addition as well as reasons to seen people into less explored areas.
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11-29-2012, 09:04 PMThebard
Its a situation where you will just have to wait and see what they have done, what changes they have made.
This thread is redundant until we see those changes in beta because all you are doing is discussing the 1.0 scenario and thats not what we are getting in 2.0/ARR
Plus there are already threads on this topic. -
11-30-2012, 01:21 AMWicka
I agree that there is little point in assuming it will be the same in 2.0.
But I also agree with OP. Unless the current system is changed, it will be detrimental to the future of the game. I don't know what they have planned for 2.0, but I would not be opposed to a decision to do away with classes.
Games require satisfying feedback to be successful. One of the quintessential forms of feedback in rpgs is the ever-satisfying level-up. if the number of jobs doubles in the future (doesn't seem unreasonable), several problems arise if the system is not changed.
the jobs that share a base class also share the same attributes, weapons, basic weapon skills, traits, and level. I understand that they are changing the way attributes work in 2.0 so that may be a moot point. But if weapons, ws, and traits remain as they do now then the resulting jobs will be boringly similar.
Sharing levels brings up a whole other can of worms. My buddy and I are both looking forward to our favorite classes/jobs. Bluemage and puppetmaster, respectively. Lets assume they are both released at the same time, but Bluemage is released with a new class (lets say the light-blue-mage) and pup just branches off of a pre-existing class (lets say pug because i dig monk and have it at 50). We can't run low level content together because he is level 1 and I am 50. To solve this issue they would need to release a new class with each job, which makes classes redundant.
I understand that people enjoy the freeform nature of classes. Maybe a compromise could be made. If they kept the predefined cross-class options (2 options per job) and allowed us to pick a 3rd cross-class job, would that be acceptable? It could be a good way to continue using the job stones too. You level a job to 30 to obtain the job stone, which you can then equip to open up a 3rd job for cross-class skills. For example, BLM gets his 2 predefined cross-class options. And if he also has WHM at 30, he can equip that job stone and get access to WHM cross-class skills as well. I kinda just thought of this, and Im interested to hear from somebody who wants to keep classes around because the enjoy the freedom. Does that sound like an acceptable compromise?
Ultimately, changes are coming. And until we know how the new system will work, we shouldn't really worry. Very interested in thoughts my job stone idea, though. -
11-30-2012, 02:31 AMWicka
I agree that there is little point in assuming it will be the same in 2.0.
But I also agree with OP. Unless the current system is changed, it will be detrimental to the future of the game. I don't know what they have planned for 2.0, but I would not be opposed to a decision to do away with classes.
Games require satisfying feedback to be successful. One of the quintessential forms of feedback in rpgs is the ever-satisfying level-up. if the number of jobs doubles in the future (doesn't seem unreasonable), several problems arise if the system is not changed.
the jobs that share a base class also share the same attributes, weapons, basic weapon skills, traits, and level. I understand that they are changing the way attributes work in 2.0 so that may be a moot point. But if weapons, ws, and traits remain as they do now then the resulting jobs will be boringly similar.
Sharing levels brings up a whole other can of worms. My buddy and I are both looking forward to our favorite classes/jobs. Bluemage and puppetmaster, respectively. Lets assume they are both released at the same time, but Bluemage is released with a new class (lets say the light-blue-mage) and pup just branches off of a pre-existing class (lets say pug because i dig monk and have it at 50). We can't run low level content together because he is level 1 and I am 50. To solve this issue they would need to release a new class with each job, which makes classes redundant.
I understand that people enjoy the freeform nature of classes. Maybe a compromise could be made. If they kept the predefined cross-class options (2 options per job) and allowed us to pick a 3rd cross-class job, would that be acceptable? It could be a good way to continue using the job stones too. You level a job to 30 to obtain the job stone, which you can then equip to open up a 3rd job for cross-class skills. For example, BLM gets his 2 predefined cross-class options. And if he also has WHM at 30, he can equip that job stone and get access to WHM cross-class skills as well. I kinda just thought of this, and Im interested to hear from somebody who wants to keep classes around because the enjoy the freedom. Does that sound like an acceptable compromise?
Ultimately, changes are coming. And until we know how the new system will work, we shouldn't really worry. Very interested in thoughts my job stone idea, though. -
11-30-2012, 03:03 AMKirito
Actually the only answer I see for situations like this is to have a level range for certain dungeons and instances. If a person doesn't fall within the level range then their level will get rolled back to highest level of the range while in the dungeon. That way low level players can play with with higher level individuals without the dungeon losing most of it's fun. For situations with players of lower levels that want to play with higher level players, I don't see it as possible. They could roll the player level up for the lower level player, but then it would take out the urge to bother leveling a character in the first place. I also don't like the idea of rolling up levels because it kind of discourages meeting new people since you can always get your eight friends to do a full party with you and even if they didn't tank they roll up system would give them enough stats to do it.
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11-30-2012, 07:53 AMNoctisXZ
First I just wanted to state that I had no knowledge of another thread like this. It must be buried somewhere though I'm sure.. so forgive me for the samey old threat posting. I hate that stuff as much as the next guy!
And while I know there a multitude of changes ahead of us once ARR launches I just can't sit around and wait and see. I have to be proactive about it and voice my opinion here since I haven't received an Alpha invite. As a matter of fact that's the primary reason I was hoping that I'd be accepted.. to give my feedback on that specific matter as soon as possible. I don't know everything that's going to change with the game and I don't expect to have all the details presented to me right now.. info needs to be staggered for many reasons. But on the other hand this is, in my eyes, a HUGE issue that could honestly make or break the game. It might not seem so as of this moment.. or even when the game has been out for a little while. But in the future I can only see problem after problem arising because of the current situation as some have already voiced here.
The armoury system itself needs a little work but it can be tweaked and perfected. I'm confident that it can get to a place where jobs aren't watered down because of there respective classes. My ONLY issue with it though is the level linking..
I've offered my solution. And I think it's grounded in reality and something that CAN be done in a relatively short time frame.. perhaps it would push the game back another month but I think a lot of us can wait if it means that the game will be the best that it can be.
Do away with the level linking. Once you unlock a job have it start out as whatever the required level of the main class/job that it's linked to is in order to unlock it, regardless of if that class/job is already capped. So if your Marauder is already level 50.. once you go to unlock Warrior it will start out at level 30 and level up INDIVIDUALLY of the main class it's linked to.
With that solution you wouldn't have to go back and add extra content or work around the game mechanics or lore so I can't see why it wouldn't be done.. hopefully it ALREADY is, but it doesn't hurt for me to voice my opinion on the matter.
I just can't see any other solution. Granted a few more classes do need to be added, like a thief type class, I just can't see the model of.. new class/new job working over the long run. You'd run into SO many issues with how classes work in general and it would create a giant balancing issue. -
11-30-2012, 08:23 AMDuelleThe alternative would have been what The Secret World currently has: abilities can be used by anyone so long as they have the appropriate weapons, but setting certain abilities creates a "pre-built deck', which in their context would be no different than what we know as jobs. Set certain abilities and you're a witch hunter. Set certain abilities and you were an exorcist. Set certain abilities and you were an assassin. And so on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraggy
Is it perfect? Not really. Would it have worked in this game? No idea.
I'm okay with the current system, and will continue to be so long as the jobs keep getting things that make sense for them. I know it sacrifices some versatility (I know the chance of me seeing Holy Knight implemented are slim to none), but if it means the jobs stay within concept, I'm fine with that. -
11-30-2012, 08:46 AMZyphBecause FFXI's 22 different jobs has been a logistical nightmare.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
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11-30-2012, 08:50 AMurbanalmost sound like FF11 when you have to play each job to be able to fully utilize it as a complete sub job.Quote:
Originally Posted by NoctisXZ
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11-30-2012, 08:50 AMShougunIs that for or aganist me? I cant tell lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Zyph
And yeah just like what is going to happen in FFXIV, too many jobs being able to pull from each other (classes in FFXIV) will make a nightmare, and in FFXIV there is no level requirement so the nightmare is even less manageable. Level cap raises are going to be fun XD. -
11-30-2012, 08:52 AMurban
i like the idea tho. it would be great *Only* if they have implemented this from the begining..i dont think it'll work for 2.o tho...considering sooo many ppl maxed out all the job already.
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11-30-2012, 09:04 AMNoctisXZIt can/will work for ARR considering I know quite a few people who are going to create completely new characters once the game launches. And besides the point.. this is something that HAS to be done regardless of if a great deal of people already have maxed out all of their classes. They might have.. but future players won't have the problem that we currently have. And that's what matters.. the future of this game.Quote:
Originally Posted by urban
We have to stop the bleeding while we can. Not let it go untreated until eventually there isn't a drop left and all we're left with is a lifeless.. cold corpse of a game. Surgery isn't always pretty but it saves lives. -
11-30-2012, 09:07 AMZyphIt's against you. First of all, this "too many jobs" concept is for the devs to decide. If they feel there's no more room for new classes/jobs, they'll stop. This whole "going to happen" thing is something you cannot possibly know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
As for right now, there's plenty of ways to make new jobs FEEL unique even if their performance and raw numbers are similar to other jobs on paper. See the twenty two unique jobs that XI has.
They will have an extremely hard time pulling this off, however, if multiple jobs use the same base class.
Also level requirement? For what? -
11-30-2012, 09:09 AMShougunFFXI actually has a logistic nightmare.. maybe you weren't aware of that.. so thats why i thought you where for meQuote:
Originally Posted by Zyph
Also FFXI has you limited to one sub job - classes are limited to none.
Because the -only- way to make a job unique in FFXIV (1.0 at least) is to make a class. And every class shares all of its skills. Its even worse of an issue then FFXI. -
11-30-2012, 09:12 AMRexButthurt?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zyph
Jeez. Why so offended? -
11-30-2012, 09:22 AMZyphFFXI was not a logistical nightmare save for community fueled stigmas and SE not doing enough to dispel these stigmas. The reason it was not a logistical nightmare of sameyness was for the exact reason you listed. Jobs could only use one subjob.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
But now you're saying that every class shares all it's skills in XIV. Really? I really loved using Life Surge on my Marauder and being completely invincible. Or remember that time the Pugilist in your party main healed with Cura and Curaga?
Yes, FFXIV 1.0 was not a logistical nightmare because skills and spells were limited based on class. You could only get really basic, non game breaking skills from other classes. There is no reason that would change in 2.0 with the addition of more classes.
Also, I think you really need to take a look at your use of the word "unique." You say that using abilities from other classes makes you "unique?" Well no, that just makes you more similar to the class you're borrowing the abilities from. -
11-30-2012, 09:26 AMShougunPerhaps you dont understand the context I mean for unique. The only way to make a job not a copy pasta of other classes and just feel like "5 abilities" is to make a whole dedicated class for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zyph
Otherwise the theme isnt in sync and isnt unique in other words it becomes a "copy pasta".
Classes do not block their good skills only the best ones - the more classes are around the harder it will be to balance as unexpected combinations will become OP, or others UP when you figure they shouldn't be. Too much blending - pretty much how FFXIV was in the very beginning but it will only happen later after many classes have been added because they want each job to feel appropriate. If you purposely are designing classes to only share their useless abilities then the class itself is useless and you should just move to the job system only. -
11-30-2012, 09:40 AMZyphThat's what I'm saying. I think we're on the same page here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
Yes, there could arise a situation where a skill combination could become OP. But that's why SE has internal playtesters. Then there are people who's whole job is to analyze combinations of skills and determine if they should be balanced or not, or even completely revised. Yes they will make mistakes, and yes something is going to get nerfed in the live version, but that's an MMO for ya'.
A sane company would not let "too many jobs" flood their game unless they were dead sure they could balance them to the players' satisfaction. Let's hope SE remains sane.
Honestly, in order to cut down on this clutter of abilities, they could just get rid of classes and allow jobs to pick their two sub-classes and be able to switch their choices around at an aetheryte or something.
But yeah, basically, new jobs should be tied to new classes. -
11-30-2012, 09:47 AMAzurusit has nothing to do with being "stuck in 2002" it has to do with the fact that literally every class played exactly the same and their were a select number of skills everyone used since they made for the fastest grinding of coblyns. it was real dumb. THM tank anyone? the system was fine? really? u say it gave freedom but it just pidgeonholed u in to leveling certain classes for certain skills so you could solo effectively. (before classes there was no real content to balance around) before jobs it was just zerg world nms with a thm tank.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraggy
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11-30-2012, 09:52 AMShougunQuote:
Originally Posted by Zyph
Ah I see, I cant say "I know there will be big issues" but I do definitely fear it with the current system - that classes will start to get in the way.
But I think it would be crazy not to worry.. just because its a system that once set in place cant really be taken back out.
I'm sure Yoshida has thought about this, a lot. But I want Yoshida to know at least some of its players are worried, so he can either make bigger decisions if wanted, think about it if he didn't, or just know he was thinking about the right things himself and he will surprise us at release with his retooled system (because we already know he has changed a lot of abilities).
Its not "my way or the highway" its just please dont go down "that way" (the all similar non-unique hodge podge where you are like "meh" DRK? PLD? whats the difference?).