The level link between Jobs and Classes

[NoctisXZ]

This is going to be very difficult for me to articulate properly to the masses but nevertheless I'm going to give it a shot. I know that I'm going to be met with some resistance, which is understandable, and that some are just going to outright dismiss what I have to say on the grounds that this type of thing has been discussed before.. but here it goes...

To start off I just wanted to say that I like the armoury system.. is it perfect? Not at all.. but can it be perfected with a little work? Yes it can.. to outright do away with it would be an extremely silly thing. It has so much potential for solo play and just in terms of job diversity that I don't want to see it go.

There are so many combinations and possibilities for unlocking new jobs that it actually excites me and makes me want to level classes and jobs that I normally wouldn't. Eventually for more advanced jobs you could get into having to have an actual job at level 30 or 50 and another job or class at level 15 or 30. As the level cap raises there is more potential for more interesting things.

Now to get into what really matters to me. The one thing that really worries me about this game above all else. The one thing that I think could actually harm it in the long run and be its eventual downfall.. the way in which jobs and classes are linked. I've tried to be open minded with it but I simply can not see it working.. and I can't see it building any interest in any new jobs as long as it exists.

Don't get me wrong.. when the first wave of jobs were implemented it was something that could be tolerated simply because there was, for the most part, nothing else... in the future I just can't see it helping the game.. especially if we are sticking to the current armoury system.

I don't want to imagine playing ARR and when a new job is released I'm automatically level 50 with a wealth of abilities to acquire. It simply takes all of the fun and interest out of learning how to play.. there is absolutely nothing to look forward to. Sure.. you could work around that, but then you'd have to implement a new class for every new job and that presents a whole different set of problems and just further restricts the games potential.

I try to look at things logically.. and logically I can't see them starting jobs at level 1 after you acquire them. They would have to create so many more basic abilities that already exist on different classes and create more quest lines to unlock more job specific abilities before level 30. Not to mention it would set the launch of the game back a few more months most likely...

Now what could work is starting jobs at level 30.. granted I don't make games and have no idea how long it would take. But I do believe it wouldn't take as long as what I said above... it would fix everything.

I know some of you won't agree with me. But for the good of the game jobs and classes needed to be leveled up independently of one another. I truly want this game to succeed.. and I understand there will be things that I do like and things that I don't like. This I do not like.. but don't get me wrong. I don't want to change it simply because I don't like it, that's extremely selfish and stupid. I want it to change because I want this game to last for many years and do as well as it can..

[Renen]

So, u want a core part of the game to be reworked?
Devs MIGHT listen to small suggestions, but not this.

[NoctisXZ]

So, u want a core part of the game to be reworked?
Devs MIGHT listen to small suggestions, but not this.

Yes.. if it means that ARR can sustain a large enough player base over the span of many years than that's exactly what I want.

As it stands right now I just can't see that happening with the way classes and jobs are currently linked together in terms of level. With the way things are currently a great deal of the interest of having a new job is taken away by the simple fact that by the time they're released everyone will already be level 50.. there would be no growing with your job and learning the ins and outs of it.. where is the fun in automatically being level 50 anyway? Not to mention that unless they had a new class along with each new job than that would mean that a great deal of the world would become barren and dull. No one would be leveling after a certain point because they've already maxed out all of the classes, hence.. with each new job, unless they added a class/job each time, that would also be level 50.

I don't want to play in a game where I can't level with other people because EVERYONE is already level 50. I don't want to play a game where it becomes impossible to do mid-level content after a certain point because EVERYONE is already level 50 and there is no point to it.. and I certainly don't want to live in a world where most of it is dead save for the few endgame areas.

I've tried to see the positives of keeping things the way they are.. but I can't see any at all. The negatives on the other hand keep stacking up. It might not be an immediate problem.. but if this game is to have a future than at a certain point it will become a HUGE one.

I'm not bringing this up simply because I don't like how things are now, even though I don't, but because I want this game to last as long as 11 has and be a success.

I've thought about it extensively and the one solution that I can think of that can keep the game somewhat on track and fix this little soon to be big problem is to have jobs start out at level 30. Or whatever level the main class/job used to unlock it is.. that way you don't have to go back and add extra abilities on top of the new ones already being added and it won't affect the quests and story already set up for each job.

I don't develop games or have any idea how long it would take to change something like that.. but it couldn't take as long as having to go back and add new content. You aren't adding anything to the game.. just removing the algorithm used to have classes and jobs level up together. So how long would that realistically take?

Having classes and jobs linked together in terms of level just isn't going to work in the long run.. they need to be independent of one another.

[WinnipegJet]

Long as they add a new class along with each job it won't be a problem really.

[Shougun]

Long as they add a new class along with each job it won't be a problem really.

Until there are so many classes that clash and incompatibility proliferate the system and balancing becomes a nightmare beyond even the best strategy and mobas consider.. XD

I think the only sustainable response without crashing the current system is to introduce asymmetry.. (discussed in another thread) not my suggestion but its the best worst option imo.

[Kraggy]

For me the original concept was fine, sadly too many XIV players were stuck in XI mode and wanted to feel unique snowflakes in whatever 'role' they played, so they complained about the 'multi-classing' nature of the game as it was released.

Sadly SE caved in to this demand for retro-style character development and we went back to an XI-kinda structure, but without the simplicity of XI's job/subjob structure.

Worst of all worlds, it didn't appeal those who liked the more free-form character construction of the original nor to those stuck in the 2002 world of rigid 'dual-classing'.

[Shougun]

For me the original concept was fine, sadly too many XIV players were stuck in XI mode and wanted to feel unique snowflakes in whatever 'role' they played, so they complained about the 'multi-classing' nature of the game as it was released.

Sadly SE caved in to this demand for retro-style character development and we went back to an XI-kinda structure, but without the simplicity of XI's job/subjob structure.

Worst of all worlds, it didn't appeal those who liked the more free-form character construction of the original nor to those stuck in the 2002 world of rigid 'dual-classing'.

Agreed ( mostly - Yoshida himself wanted classes to be more structured ). It screwed a lot of its pros and just introduced more cons XD

put that jackie chain mind blown image here.jpg

Why not just tell everyone you are scrapping the system.. or dont and keep what made it good.. lol

[Sakasa]

Well even if they don't add a new class with every job they system and there statements of questing for more abilities, it is possible they can force content completion similar to forcing xping. For instance let say they add red mage to gla and sniper to arc in one update. Because of the addition together they could add long expansive quest lines that require other events such as dungeon completion behest, specific fetch quest, so on and so forth for the stronger abilities and in addition add new abilities to the other jobs that require the same. Its a cheap tactic yes but it allows for more writing and lore addition as well as reasons to seen people into less explored areas.

[Thebard]

Its a situation where you will just have to wait and see what they have done, what changes they have made.
This thread is redundant until we see those changes in beta because all you are doing is discussing the 1.0 scenario and thats not what we are getting in 2.0/ARR
Plus there are already threads on this topic.

[Wicka]

I agree that there is little point in assuming it will be the same in 2.0.

But I also agree with OP. Unless the current system is changed, it will be detrimental to the future of the game. I don't know what they have planned for 2.0, but I would not be opposed to a decision to do away with classes.

Games require satisfying feedback to be successful. One of the quintessential forms of feedback in rpgs is the ever-satisfying level-up. if the number of jobs doubles in the future (doesn't seem unreasonable), several problems arise if the system is not changed.

the jobs that share a base class also share the same attributes, weapons, basic weapon skills, traits, and level. I understand that they are changing the way attributes work in 2.0 so that may be a moot point. But if weapons, ws, and traits remain as they do now then the resulting jobs will be boringly similar.

Sharing levels brings up a whole other can of worms. My buddy and I are both looking forward to our favorite classes/jobs. Bluemage and puppetmaster, respectively. Lets assume they are both released at the same time, but Bluemage is released with a new class (lets say the light-blue-mage) and pup just branches off of a pre-existing class (lets say pug because i dig monk and have it at 50). We can't run low level content together because he is level 1 and I am 50. To solve this issue they would need to release a new class with each job, which makes classes redundant.

I understand that people enjoy the freeform nature of classes. Maybe a compromise could be made. If they kept the predefined cross-class options (2 options per job) and allowed us to pick a 3rd cross-class job, would that be acceptable? It could be a good way to continue using the job stones too. You level a job to 30 to obtain the job stone, which you can then equip to open up a 3rd job for cross-class skills. For example, BLM gets his 2 predefined cross-class options. And if he also has WHM at 30, he can equip that job stone and get access to WHM cross-class skills as well. I kinda just thought of this, and Im interested to hear from somebody who wants to keep classes around because the enjoy the freedom. Does that sound like an acceptable compromise?

Ultimately, changes are coming. And until we know how the new system will work, we shouldn't really worry. Very interested in thoughts my job stone idea, though.