A Socio-Cultural Analysis of Garlean Genocide *spoilers*

The White Raven, Legatus Nael van Darnus of the House of Darnus managed to convince his Radiance, the Emperor of Garlemald, to utilize Dalamud, a weapon of mass-destruction akin to a nuclear missile, to eliminate Eorzea completely.

This sounds essentially insane, and even others in Garlemald clearly believe it to be a bad idea. Cid, who was probably a superstar in the empire due to being responsible for a great deal of their technology, left because of the incident at Bozja citadel. And Gaius van Baelsar makes it very clear that wiping out an entire land is counterproductive and useless.

Let us consider the history of Garlemald.
For years it was nothing. Insignificant and not a world power. However within a century (50 or so years i believe), it managed to became one of, if not the largest, powers on Hydaelyn. It's rise was a result of a massive and rapid technological advancement, and an ambitious military restructuring by a legatus turned emperor.

The social structure seems to be one similar to ancient Rome, with family houses playing a prominent role as societal regulators, and a strong honour code. Those who excel in a house (so far we only know of males) seem to become Legati, which are essentially generals of legions. These legions are loyal to their Legatus, and not necessarily to the emperor, as we can see with the 7th legion searching for Nael van Darnus believing him not to be dead after we kill him.

Further, rapid expansion comes at serious costs. Regardless of their technological advantage, the empire faces dwindling military forces resulting in a policy of conscription, and constant rebellion. Further, it is clear that while the empire -projects- power, they face multiple threats from multiple directions.

Eorzea seems to be a particular problem. It is revealed by van Baelsar that the eikons (primals) are the reason why he hasn't been able to conquer Eorzea. This is most likely why he lost favour with the emperor, who took the White Raven's side in utilizing meteor.

But if Eorzea is no threat, why bother destroying it -completely-. It is clearly costing a lot of resources and soldiers lives to pull it off, and the Emperor and van Darnus both clearly know it will eradicate the land.

To understand this, we have to understand the culture of which would arise in Garlemalds situation. It is most likely well known to Garlemald that Eorzea's history has been forged in warfare. The holy see (the greatest military power in Eorzea) is in constant warfare with Dravania and the dragons. In the past all the nations have faught each other, the beastmen, etc. Many of the battles between Ishgard and Gridania are mentioned throughout the game for example. And the beast tribes clearly state that in the past when they attempted to have a peaceful existence the 5 races screwed them over.

So in Garlemald the average person is probably aware of Eorzea's bloody history. Further, the primals in Eorzea are clearly a threat to the Garlean empire as they block their expansion, and they are essentially insane. We get to meet ifrit and garuda, who are both -nuts-. They are power hungry beings with no problems killing those that get in the way. Further, the Allag civilization clearly has technology buried around Eorzea as van Darnus utilizes it to summon meteor.

Garlemald also seems to have dropped religion. The Legati are pretty clear that the gods people worship ignore them, and that they are strongly against eikons, which is a derogatory term for the primals insinuating that they are false gods and just monsters. Essentially, the gods are dead to them.

So you essentially have a land full of pirates, merchants, and extremist forest dwellers near your homeland borders. As well as an incredibly extremist religious nation (Ishgard) who has a massive military force and is in proximity to ancient technology. Further, you know 100% that they can form a military alliance, as they have in the past. There are also beast tribes who can summon beings that believe themselves to be gods, who are a serious threat to your nation. And years and years of military endeavors by someone essentially obsessed with the conquest of Eorzea have proved futile. You then have paragons and such going around promoting the summoning of these primals.

It's no surprise that Garlemald developed racist ideologies to those associated with primals/eikons who believe themselves, and would seek to make themselves gods. Further, it's no surprise that Eorzea is viewed as a significant threat.

A technological culture with rapid expansion facing multiple cultures who strongly believe in gods is bound to result in an engrained obsessive racism, and the cultural acceptance of WMDs. And as such, in a way, Garlemald is not a horrible narcissistic nation bent on world domination, but rather a product of rapid advancement and unavoidable societal tensions as a result.

http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV...0,214,314_.jpg

http://static1.fjcdn.com/comments/Th...00f50bb2af.jpg

Imperialism is bad, mkay?

wow, beautiful reading

Great read.

You made a very well-reasoned and thoughtful view of the situation from a third-person point of view. Romantically it is fun to be the rebels going against superior imperial forces but as the redux of it goes: "I had friends on that Death Star..."

Nice read ^^ one thing though bothers me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

So in Garlemald the average person is probably aware of Eorzea's bloody history. Further, the primals in Eorzea are clearly a threat to the Garlean empire as they block their expansion, and they are essentially insane. We get to meet ifrit and garuda, who are both -nuts-. They are power hungry beings with no problems killing those that get in the way. Further, the Allag civilization clearly has technology buried around Eorzea as van Darnus utilizes it to summon meteor.

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From the main story cutscenes Ifrit seems less power hungry and more protective of the Amaalja which is prior to Dalamud beginning its descent. But by the time we get to have a one to one with Garuda, Dalamud has already begun to close in on Eorzea and she seems to be completely obsessed with it. That doesnt seem to be just a coincidence so if the empire did choose to use the Dalamud bomb i dont think its cus they viewed the primals as insane/or that they were insane prior the decision to use Meteor.

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Originally Posted by Alaltus

Nice read ^^ one thing though bothers me.



From the main story cutscenes Ifrit seems less power hungry and more protective of the Amaalja which is prior to Dalamud beginning its descent. But by the time we get to have a one to one with Garuda, Dalamud has already begun to close in on Eorzea and she seems to be completely obsessed with it. That doesnt seem to be just a coincidence so if the empire did choose to use the Dalamud bomb i dont think its cus they viewed the primals as insane/or that they were insane prior the decision to use Meteor.

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In the story ifrit still says everyone should be worshipping him or bowing down to him or something. He only lets you live because the paragons asked him to. It seemed pretty clear that he wanted to be the -true- 1 god. edit: was wrong about this, see catapults post @ top of page 3 for a -much- better explanation :]

edit: Ifrit believes there is only one true god (himself), and that those who don't believe in them can't be allowed to "roam unchecked". Rewatch the cutschene if you want to be sure, It's in main scenarios, Lord Errant, cs7.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

Let us consider the history of Garlemald.
For years it was nothing. Insignificant and not a world power. However within a century (50 or so years i believe), it managed to became one of, if not the largest, powers on Hydaelyn. It's rise was a result of a massive and rapid technological advancement,

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Garlemald has alien backup
MAKE IT HAPPEN SE!

Great analysis. A note:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

Garlemald also seems to have dropped religion. The Legati are pretty clear that the gods people worship ignore them, and that they are strongly against eikons, which is a derogatory term for the primals insinuating that they are false gods and just monsters. Essentially, the gods are dead to them.

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This is true, but there is also the possibility that the Garleans have developed some sort of monotheism. Calling the Twelve dead or false gods, and the primals mere eikons ('images'; their worship would thus be eido-latreia, 'image-worship', 'idolatry') would be consistent with a nation who believes that it has discovered the one true God.

However, the lyrics to "Rise of the White Raven" suggest that Garlemald really is atheist:

Res evertuntur repente
Ad unum omnes sunt mortui dei
Machinae regnabunt in caelo
Ratio regnabit in terra

All things are suddenly overturned
All gods, to the very last, have passed away
Technology will reign in heaven
Reason will reign on earth.

This passage makes it pretty clear that Garlemald is atheist, probably going through something like an "Age of Enlightenment" which marks an extreme faith in science, progress, human reason, and technology on the one hand and a heavy reaction against religion and tradition on the other.

It is not 100% cut-and-dried. The song seems to be sung from the perspective of a generic Garlean soldier (not, for example, Darnus himself, because he is praised in the song in the third person). But this leads to some confusion. Darnus is an extremist, passionately devoted to the Meteor Project far beyond what the rest of the Empire thought reasonable (cf Gaius' reactions throughout the quest), and indeed Darnus starts to 'worship' Dalamud, pray to it, invoke it lovingly, etc. This is certainly religious devotion. And, in the more recent lore updates, we have been told that the VIIth Legion has occupied the Carteneau Flats, in something like a fanatic devotion to their Legatus, believing him to have ascended to godhood or something like that. While a fanatical devotion to a legatus would be utterly typical of, say, Roman legions, a 'religious' devotion to him seems to contradict the Enlightenment atheistic feel of the lyrics I just quoted.

It's a riddle! Before the events with the reformation of the Grand Companies, I actually thought that Dalamud was Garlemald's own "primal"--obviously I was wrong. ;) My own pet theory now is that Dalamud is a prison device created by the ancient Allagan Empire to imprison Bahamut... but I suppose time will tell!

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Originally Posted by Fatestorm

Great analysis. A note:



This is true, but there is also the possibility that the Garleans have developed some sort of monotheism. Calling the Twelve dead or false gods, and the primals mere eikons ('images'; their worship would thus be eido-latreia, 'image-worship', 'idolatry') would be consistent with a nation who believes that it has discovered the one true God.

However, the lyrics to "Rise of the White Raven" suggest that Garlemald really is atheist:

Res evertuntur repente
Ad unum omnes sunt mortui dei
Machinae regnabunt in caelo
Ratio regnabit in terra

All things are suddenly overturned
All gods, to the very last, have passed away
Technology will reign in heaven
Reason will reign on earth.

This passage makes it pretty clear that Garlemald is atheist, probably going through something like an "Age of Enlightenment" which marks an extreme faith in science, progress, human reason, and technology on the one hand and a heavy reaction against religion and tradition on the other.

It is not 100% cut-and-dried. The song seems to be sung from the perspective of a generic Garlean soldier (not, for example, Darnus himself, because he is praised in the song in the third person). But this leads to some confusion. Darnus is an extremist, passionately devoted to the Meteor Project far beyond what the rest of the Empire thought reasonable (cf Gaius' reactions throughout the quest), and indeed Darnus starts to 'worship' Dalamud, pray to it, invoke it lovingly, etc. This is certainly religious devotion. And, in the more recent lore updates, we have been told that the VIIth Legion has occupied the Carteneau Flats, in something like a fanatic devotion to their Legatus, believing him to have ascended to godhood or something like that. While a fanatical devotion to a legatus would be utterly typical of, say, Roman legions, a 'religious' devotion to him seems to contradict the Enlightenment atheistic feel of the lyrics I just quoted.

It's a riddle! Before the events with the reformation of the Grand Companies, I actually thought that Dalamud was Garlemald's own "primal"--obviously I was wrong. ;) My own pet theory now is that Dalamud is a prison device created by the ancient Allagan Empire to imprison Bahamut... but I suppose time will tell!

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I agree with it all
only thing I want to point out is that it is mentioned many times that Dalamud is -not- a god or not a being, but a man made object. Ppl in eorzea only call it by a name related to a god because they probably aren't aware the Allag empire even existed, or that it was even more technologically advanced than the Garleans are.

So essentially he is worshiping power, or a machine.
Or if the devs are poetic, it's a representation of what happens when you worship technology to the extreme.

Mind you the prison thing sounds pretty cool

Mmm, I disagree and don't think that's what SE was going for. Religion does not equate to inherent racism. Japan itself is a highly religious country, do you view Japan as inherently racist? They aren't. Eorzea was at odds with itself for a while, but were able to put aside their differences and live in peace without forgoing their religious views.

I think the thing about Garlemald being atheist and hating Eorzea's gods is true, but I don't think they're merely making a 'preemptive' attack. I think the emperor is insane and power hungry and wants world domination.

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Originally Posted by Punainen

Mmm, I disagree and don't think that's what SE was going for. Religion does not equate to inherent racism. Japan itself is a highly religious country, do you view Japan as inherently racist? They aren't. Eorzea was at odds with itself for a while, but were able to put aside their differences and live in peace without forgoing their religious views.

I think the thing about Garlemald being atheist and hating Eorzea's gods is true, but I don't think they're merely making a 'preemptive' attack. I think the emperor is insane and power hungry and wants world domination.

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Ermmm, not to contridict you but from my time in Japan and things I have learned, in a religion class and Japanese Culture class, here in Japan. Japanese are only religious on holidays they don't practice highly. They also don't go preaching religiously on anything. Unless of course they are Jovah's Witnesses... and yes I have had old Japanese Women come to my door and try to sell me Jesus... It's quite interesting... lol. Anyways, I don't think they are highly religious.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Punainen

Mmm, I disagree and don't think that's what SE was going for. Religion does not equate to inherent racism. Japan itself is a highly religious country, do you view Japan as inherently racist? They aren't. Eorzea was at odds with itself for a while, but were able to put aside their differences and live in peace without forgoing their religious views.

I think the thing about Garlemald being atheist and hating Eorzea's gods is true, but I don't think they're merely making a 'preemptive' attack. I think the emperor is insane and power hungry and wants world domination.

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I think you gravely misinterpreted what I was arguing.
I don't see anywhere in my argument where I said that being religious = racist
HOWEVER, Gridania has -tons- of religious discrimination (if you aren't of the twelveswood you are an outsider and should leave) And honestly thats not too different from the attitude of many older Japanese who are generally anti-gaijin (against foreigners), to the point where gaijin is considered politically incorrect now. There has been recent controversy about this in the media over American military bases I believe.

And Ishgard is a highly discriminatory nation essentially killing anyone who would even consider talking to the dragons.

Further, if the emperor just wanted to conquer the world he wouldn't eradicate Eorzea, he would just invade it or leave it. Eradicating it doesn't benefit anyone, unless it's a serious threat and thus a preemptive strike.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fatestorm

Great analysis. A note:



This is true, but there is also the possibility that the Garleans have developed some sort of monotheism. Calling the Twelve dead or false gods, and the primals mere eikons ('images'; their worship would thus be eido-latreia, 'image-worship', 'idolatry') would be consistent with a nation who believes that it has discovered the one true God.

However, the lyrics to "Rise of the White Raven" suggest that Garlemald really is atheist:

Res evertuntur repente
Ad unum omnes sunt mortui dei
Machinae regnabunt in caelo
Ratio regnabit in terra

All things are suddenly overturned
All gods, to the very last, have passed away
Technology will reign in heaven
Reason will reign on earth.

This passage makes it pretty clear that Garlemald is atheist, probably going through something like an "Age of Enlightenment" which marks an extreme faith in science, progress, human reason, and technology on the one hand and a heavy reaction against religion and tradition on the other.

It is not 100% cut-and-dried. The song seems to be sung from the perspective of a generic Garlean soldier (not, for example, Darnus himself, because he is praised in the song in the third person). But this leads to some confusion. Darnus is an extremist, passionately devoted to the Meteor Project far beyond what the rest of the Empire thought reasonable (cf Gaius' reactions throughout the quest), and indeed Darnus starts to 'worship' Dalamud, pray to it, invoke it lovingly, etc. This is certainly religious devotion. And, in the more recent lore updates, we have been told that the VIIth Legion has occupied the Carteneau Flats, in something like a fanatic devotion to their Legatus, believing him to have ascended to godhood or something like that. While a fanatical devotion to a legatus would be utterly typical of, say, Roman legions, a 'religious' devotion to him seems to contradict the Enlightenment atheistic feel of the lyrics I just quoted.

It's a riddle! Before the events with the reformation of the Grand Companies, I actually thought that Dalamud was Garlemald's own "primal"--obviously I was wrong. ;) My own pet theory now is that Dalamud is a prison device created by the ancient Allagan Empire to imprison Bahamut... but I suppose time will tell!

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It could be that Van Darnus's fanaticism with the Meteor project, along with whatever prowess he has as a military leader, has created a 'cult of personality' with his legion, causing them to be fanatically loyal to him and see his success as some uneathly greatness.

As far as racism....I'm not sure if that's completely the case. Their army is conscripted of various soldiers from the races. If their society is like the Romans, perhaps they have a similar set of services for Garlean citizenship.

It is indeed the primals that the Empire detests. This is most likely the reason why the Emperor has no problem with using Meteo to wipe out Eorzea. The lore itself states this hatred:

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Galvus then instituted an imperial regime to govern their new territories, conferring upon himself the title of "Emperor." The eastern nations were the first to feel the newborn empire's mighty fist. It was during this campaign that the emperor witnessed firsthand the destruction wrought by the primals - an experience that led to an imperial mandate for their annihilation.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xmbei

Ermmm, not to contridict you but from my time in Japan and things I have learned, in a religion class and Japanese Culture class, here in Japan. Japanese are only religious on holidays they don't practice highly. They also don't go preaching religiously on anything. Unless of course they are Jehovah's Witnesses... and yes I have had old Japanese Women come to my door and try to sell me Jesus... It's quite interesting... lol. Anyways, I don't think they are highly religious.

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I'm a Jehovah's Witness, and I can sort of confirm what you're saying from what I've been told from a friend of mine who lived in Japan as a Witness. Religion isn't really a big deal for most people there, from what I've been told.

On topic:
10/10 Would read again. Garlemald is a great mystery at the moment, and I'd love to be able to see their nation sometime in 2.0.

You should explain their rise in technocracy attributed to their discovery of Allaghan relics ;)

This the best thread, and I don't mean to derail it but...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fatestorm

My own pet theory now is that Dalamud is a prison device created by the ancient Allagan Empire to imprison Bahamut... but I suppose time will tell!

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The flavor text for the lunar curtain status effect is..:
Reduces damage from supreme spells derived from Dalamud by half.
The spell being Megaflare. Megaflare, being Bahamut's attack.

This has been my hunch since my first crack at To Kill a Raven.
Once I read this status's flavor text during The Raven, Nevermore...
I'm a believer.

(And we're fighting Dragons in Dungeons now in ARR trailers? After the King may have returned..?)

http://www.freewebs.com/lilwrendy99/ffxi.jpg

(Hmm.)

It is probably worth noting the following about Ifrit:

He does not view himself as the one true god. Yes, he does consider himself as god, but he is also very aware of his bounds and how he is able to manifest. He is thus rather protective of his devotees. Simultaneously, he does not want to have to compete with other primals for Eorzea's crystal supply in order to remain corporeal. He wants to be King and sole manifested god, not the one true god. He knows you can't simply kill a primal and attempts to truly do so would drain the land of aether and thus defeat the purpose of being king of said land.

On the Garuda front, she is indeed a little more selfish than Ifrit. Likewise, she is interested in self-preservation, but her focus is on freedom rather than dominance. The Ixal seem to worship her for that aerial freedom her presence offers.


On the Garlemald front, we should probably also recall that Nael van Darnus himself is an heir to the remnant of the Allagan Empire. The house of Darnus has stood watch over many of their secrets for generations, which is where the Meteor project came from if I recall correctly.

And then there is Gaius van Baelsar, who is unnaturally powerful in his own right as well. So much so that... well I'll just drop this here again like I did in the LOC forum:
http://static.finalfantasyxiv.com/to.../79/4703_0.jpg
^Ultima Weapon, strongly resembling Gaius van Baelsar.

No, there is definitely more to Garlemald than 50 years of rapid technological expansion. I do believe they know far more about the nature of the world, its eras and its aether than we give them credit for. The country itself may easily fall victim to something greater again.


EDIT:

Oh, and this is for the OP:

LOC feedback (I believe from the German side more than others) has confirmed that they have deliberately used Roman military structures for the Garlean Empire. In Rome, Legates were of a senatorial rank or higher. I believe you are TOTALLY on the money on that front.

Here we go. I got the German LOC forum post for you and have done a translation:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arland

Update vom (09/07/2011)
Update from 9th July 2011

Im Deutschen ist die Rede von der XIV. und VII. Kohorte, welche von Gaius und Nael angeführt werden. Nun, da hab ich mich gleich etwas gewundert, denn eine Kohorte umfässt um die 500 Soldaten (Eigentlich 1/10 der jeweiligen Legion, ich nehm einfach mal die goldene Mitte, unzwar 5.000).
In German we are talking about the XIVth and VIIth Cohort, which are led by Gaius and Nael. Well, that surprised me a little, because a Cohort encompasses around 500 soldiers (actually one tenth of the respective legion, of which I'm taking the golden average of about 5,000)

Im Englischen ist aber die Rede von der XIV. und der VII. Legion, welche wie oben erwähnt um die 5.000 Mann stark wäre.
But in English, we are talking about the XIVth and VIIth Legion, which as mentioned above comes to around 5000-men strong.

Ich finde es wichtig zu wissen, ob Gaius und Nael jetzt bestenfalls kleinere Hundertschaften anführen oder Tausende...
I find that it would be important to know if Gaius and Nael are actually leading hundereds or thousands...

Vielleicht sollte man sich diesbezüglich einig werden. Ich stelle weder die englische Übersetzung noch die deutsche in frage, ich weiß nicht welche davon akkurat ist und bei welcher untertrieben oder übertrieben wurde. Ich bin einfach der Meinung das dies einer Klärung bedarf =)
Maybe these terms should be aligned. I'm not calling the English or German translation into question, I just don't know which of them is accurate and which is over- or under-exaggerated.

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Localiser's response:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lokalocuta

Endlich haben wir die Übersetzungen für den Versions-Patch 1.19 soweit fertig, dass wir uns wieder um eure Meinungen im Forum kümmern können.:D
We're finally sufficiently ready with the translations for patch 1.19 that we can once again get to worrying about your thoughts on the forum. :D

Im Deutschen haben wir uns für Kohorten entschieden, weil wir die Namensgebung zum einen von der der „Legion der Unsterblichen“ abheben wollten, und zum anderen die Größenordnung einer Legion für etwas übertrieben hielten.
In German, we decided on the term Cohort, because we wanted to on one hand retain the terminology for the "Legion of the Immortals" ("Immortal Flames" in English), and on the other hand because we considered the dimensions of a Legion a little over the top.

Letztendlich muss man doch mal ganz nüchtern die Zwischensequenzen betrachten, in denen maximal zehn garleische Soldaten samt Kommandanten auf einmal auf dem Bildschirm erscheinen. Solange man niemals die ganze Macht des Gegners grafisch dargestellt bekommt, wissen weder die Eorzäer noch wir Übersetzer, wie groß die tatsächliche Truppenstärke ist, die den Prätoren oder gar dem gesamten Garleischen Kaiserreich unterstehen.
Lastly, one has to also very carefully observe the cutscenes, in which at most ten Garlean soldiers inclusive of commanders will appear at once on screen. As long as one never graphically sees the full might of the enemy, neither the Eorzeans or us localisers can know how strong the force truly is, which stand beneath the Praetors (Legates) or even the entire Garlean Empire.

Wir haben uns auch bei den Kommandanten für die Bezeichnung als „Prätor“ entschieden, weil es den politischen Aspekt des Amtes, das die beiden ehrfurchtgebietenden Herren bekleiden, ebenfalls widerspiegelt.
Bei den Rufnamen haben wir uns ebenfalls etwas künstlerische Freiheit erlaubt, so heißt der den Amerikanern als „Weißer Rabe“ bekannte Nael van Darnus bei uns beispielsweise „Silberschwinge“.:p
For the commanders we also decided on the term "Praetor", because it also reflects the political role of the office that the two respect-demanding officers fulfil.
For the individual titles we have also allowed ourselves a little artistic freedom, meaning what the Americans know as "White Raven" Nael van Darnus is for us the "Silver Wing." :p

Es kommt bei den verschiedenen Sprachversion immer zu kleineren Abweichungen und wir möchten euch bitten, diese zu akzeptieren - wohl wissend, dass wir bei der Namensgebung nach bestem Wissen und Gewissen handeln.
With different languages there will always be slight deviations so we ask that you please accept these - in good knowledge that we work with best knowledge and understanding in the nomenclature.

PS
Im der japanischen Version ist übrigens nur ganz neutral von einem Kommandanten einer militärischen Einheit die Rede. Analogien zum uns bekannten römischen Kaiserreich wurden erst in die übersetzten Versionen eingearbeitet.
PS
In the Japanese version they only speak neutrally of a commander of a military unit. Analogues to the Roman Empire were first built in for the translated versions.

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So there you have it, a little background that shows they are comparing the Garlean Empire to the Roman Empire, even if the exact way they do it differs between language versions. They wouldn't do this if it created complications for the underlying lore.

They also later adjusted the term "Cohort" back over to "Legion" in order to facilitate dividing up the Legion in to Cohorts.

Ferney would be proud to see the study of lore going on in this thread. :)

I'm in love with this game's lore a bit too much, lol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Catapult

It is probably worth noting the following about Ifrit:

He does not view himself as the one true god. Yes, he does consider himself as god, but he is also very aware of his bounds and how he is able to manifest. He is thus rather protective of his devotees. Simultaneously, he does not want to have to compete with other primals for Eorzea's crystal supply in order to remain corporeal. He wants to be King and sole manifested god, not the one true god. He knows you can't simply kill a primal and attempts to truly do so would drain the land of aether and thus defeat the purpose of being king of said land.

On the Garuda front, she is indeed a little more selfish than Ifrit. Likewise, she is interested in self-preservation, but her focus is on freedom rather than dominance. The Ixal seem to worship her for that aerial freedom her presence offers.


On the Garlemald front, we should probably also recall that Nael van Darnus himself is an heir to the remnant of the Allagan Empire. The house of Darnus has stood watch over many of their secrets for generations, which is where the Meteor project came from if I recall correctly.

And then there is Gaius van Baelsar, who is unnaturally powerful in his own right as well. So much so that... well I'll just drop this here again like I did in the LOC forum:
http://static.finalfantasyxiv.com/to.../79/4703_0.jpg
^Ultima Weapon, strongly resembling Gaius van Baelsar.

No, there is definitely more to Garlemald than 50 years of rapid technological expansion. I do believe they know far more about the nature of the world, its eras and its aether than we give them credit for. The country itself may easily fall victim to something greater again.


EDIT:

Oh, and this is for the OP:

LOC feedback (I believe from the German side more than others) has confirmed that they have deliberately used Roman military structures for the Garlean Empire. In Rome, Legates were of a senatorial rank or higher. I believe you are TOTALLY on the money on that front.

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You're right on all of it ^^ thanks

I've spoken about this theory before, but nothing became of it. So I plopped the wolf's head on the raven and...
well... you tell me if I'm getting close, lol...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...timasource.png

Awesome job, great read!

I've always thought the same, Nael van Darnus symbolizes the nihilism that humankind experiences when they discover new values, or witness dramatic changes in their social structure or everyday life (see: the technology and warfare rise in Garlemard).
Darnus, as perfect example of Übermensch, like the philosopher Nietzsche would say, feels like demolishing a whole scheme of values and creating new ones. How? By power. (Wille zur Macht).
The old values are the "old" gods, as the Twelve, or the Eikons for the beast tribes. In his logic, they are not necessary anymore. Not even technology is (when he decides to control Dalamud himself after we destroy the lunar transmitter), and this is another common point with Nietzsche's philosophy, he always criticized Positivism, which, in 1800 exhalted naïvely every form of science. The world needs new values to stop the cycle of nihilism.
Another philosopher, Martin Heidegger, explains very well the link between technique (we would say technology) and nihilism.

Of course this is my personal read, those philosophical elements aren't just thought experiments, but authors I quoted wrote those consideration while witnessing the changes of manking from the 50s of the 1800 (Nietzsche) and until the ~70s of 1900 (Heidegger). The history of Eorzea is not that different from the real world, from this point of view.

I love this thread... thought-provoking, analytical and exhibits powerful cognitive thinking... interesting read and I love it.

Thanks to Azury for starting this; and to Fatestorm and Catapult for the translations. The lore behind the Garleans, their social structure and how they have an almost fanatical approach to eradicating everything to do with foreign religion has always fascinated me very deeply.

Right from the time Yaeko Sato mentioned something in an interview (back in summer of 2010) about Eorzean city-states and the imperial structure of Garlemald, I deduced that they were based off the Roman empire. That they are intolerant to the gods in general also acts to imbue their own emperor with more divine status; which is important for holding together an empire of that magnitude.

It also reinforces the idea that there is something very sinister about how they emerged into a super power within one generation... which again leads to a discussion a while back as to how Solus zos Galvus got his hands on the secret of magitek technology.

Cant find that thread... but I remember us discussing how he was either a rogue "god" or Banshin in human form (Odin?), or was being manipulated by one of them. Point is, when the Garlean empire was founded, he likely gathered around him very capable (and wealthy) like-minded members of the patrician class (or nobility) who all had powerful artifacts or secrets from the Allagan empire... or maybe from other "unknown" gods/goddesses that are opposed to the twelve.

When we look at real life history during the Roman empire, Julius Caeser was shrewd enough to cultivate to his side the extremely wealthy Crassius (the "Warren Buffett" of Rome at the time), and Ledipus (a highly efficient military tactician) in his quest for power... including the legends and myths that he had some "divine items" which sustained the military might of his soldiers.

In reality, Caeser's legions were magnificent on the battlefield because the troops loved his charisma, were well-fed & healthy (due to Crassius' funds) and he had brilliant generals (himself, Ledipus, Mark Anthony etc). So although Caesar came from one of the oldest aristocratic families in Rome at the time, their old money was beginning to dwindle, especially after his father died when he was only 15 or 16... and it was up to him to regain the social status of his family. Thus why he cleverly selected powerful men who would eventually help him rule Rome.

When we look at Garlemald, even though a lot of their history is still shrouded in mystery, we can see some loose similarities in how some ruthless Rome-like power struggles were enacted... let's not forget that Zolus will likely have some heirs or heiress of his own (all jostling for power?) including some other Legatus that want to carve their own destinies.

This is where I like Aistali's idea of Darnus' nihilism but I think what Nael really wants is to re-establish the world onto a clean slate because he has the knowledge of something that he staunchly believes in... perhaps he figures that if he can hasten the end of the Umbral era, he can start a new astral age and rebuild the Allagan empire. Or perhaps Dalamud is using him to enact revenge on the Twelve for imprisoning him since the (4th?) era...(yep, I've definitely been agreeing with people that Dalamud is an ancient prison)

His character is very VERY well written and maintains a lot of mystery (got to a point that I thought he might even be Travanchet, the strange mage that appears at the start of the Limsa storyline). Sure, in the end, our good ol'chap Nael tried to burn the house down... but what I do like about him though is his ruthless uncompromising attitude towards attaining power. Which is why in some strange way, we continue to adore him and wish he'd make a come back. He's definitely worthy of having been a Final Fantasy super boss.

In conclusion, I really can't wait to start the 2.0 storylines regarding the empire... House Darnus might have new successors who want to re-establish the Allagan empire. Or the emperor might have a cunning daughter who is a Legatus and wants the throne but has older brothers; heck maybe even Gaius might be a son of the emperor... I'm totally eager to see the new plot twists that will come our way.

*Edited to add views regarding Darnus*

This whole thread is a great read.

I agree that the White Raven is atheist, however it might be more accurate to call him a theophobe.

His (and we can assume the whole Empire's) fear/hatred for religion - whether Primals or the Twelve - has driven him to complete nihilistic madness.

Strangely enough, the zeal for, and 'worship' he lavishes on Dalamud (a Magitek construct, likely) seems to dwarf any other faith in Eorzea.

He is too blinded by arrogance to realize that his inverted anti-religion has become a religion far more zealous than anything he might fear or despise.



SE did a great job with the 1.0 storyline, we can only guess where it goes from here~

Did you have to write a paper for school or something?

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Originally Posted by Riv

Did you have to write a paper for school or something?

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No, I spent the last week going through every cutscene, and reading a bunch of stuff, so that I can update my lore guide for 2.0 so new players will have an idea what the lore was like in 1.0.

And it got me thinking about how messed up Eorzea actually is. Like none of the nations are ideal or 'good'. They all have really serious flaws. Like Gridania comes off as this nation in tune with the forest and all for peace, but if you look at their history it its full of wars and stuff. Even the grid storyline shows how people in grid fear wildlings and how the padjal have to kinda deceive them to avoid a panic.

Eorzea is full of a lot of really flawed but realistic nations. Which I find pretty epic compared to most games that just have the token "benevolent leader, evil rebels" thing going on.

Plus I'm really into behavioural psychology, and i have a major in poli sci and economics. So this stuff just interests me.

My major is in neurosci + psych right now so i don't get to write fun stuff for school often ;x just lots of multiple choice tests ; ;

Really interesting read and I'd love to see more of these.
We need a website devoted to keeping FFXIV lore, unless there's already one.

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Originally Posted by Erana

Really interesting read and I'd love to see more of these.
We need a website devoted to keeping FFXIV lore, unless there's already one.

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the ffxiv wiki is what should be handling this but it kinda got ignored once people found out 1.0 would die. I'm sure that when 2.0 comes out it will pick up speed again

Speaking of lore i would like to know who summoned Midgarsormr to fight back the empire ships in the 1.0 intro and what were dragons doing way south from their homeland north of Ishgard :)

I honestly feel that this is one of the best threads I've browsed through since starting XIV. Great job, guys.

Awesome thread, I always love diving into the lore and trying to connect all of the relevant bits together. My friend has been trying to speculate what Garlemald's next move will be, with the whole numbered legions paying fanservice to FF titles thing (Meteor from FF7 for VIIth Legion etc.). Personally I think it'd be a good idea to make a nice compilation of the current lore up to this point in the game, especially for those who haven't been playing.

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Originally Posted by Erana

Really interesting read and I'd love to see more of these.
We need a website devoted to keeping FFXIV lore, unless there's already one.

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I suggest taking a look at the localisation forums. Fernehawles and the rest of the English localisation team respond to loc-bugs there, but also drop the occasional lore bomb. Given that they have to translate the story and all its intricacies, they are far more in touch with the lore than the average dev or rep.

Anonymoose, our biggest resident XIV lore-geek (I mean that as a compliment) also hangs out there and we can end up in some very interesting discussions from time to time.

Gaius van Baelsar is overseeing Ala Mhigo currently. He controls it as Viceroy. I think Ala Mhigo is technically part of Eorzea, so they already have a foothold here. Same with Sharlayan. There are a lot of sections we can't reach yet.

I don't think the Empire sees the Primals so much as a threat. They are more of an obstacle in their conquest. As for "racism", it's sort of hard to call it that when the Empire itself has all 5 of the same races. The level 50s are predominately blonde, but there are enough black haired ones to throw the notion of Genocide out the window. Dalamud's use on Eorzea can be labeled as nothing more complex than "conquest".

Nael van Darnus mentioned that the world has lost the light of the Crystal. He sought to purify all, probably more than just Eorzea. That sort of devastation falls in the "mass extinction" category.

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Originally Posted by Siegtaru

...with the whole numbered legions paying fanservice to FF titles thing (Meteor from FF7 for VIIth Legion etc.).

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Interestingly enough, they take this further with the third 'United We Stand' cut-scene wherein you get the nice Sephiroth-style close up of Nael amidst the ceruleum flames.

For those who want to compare, the following is the link to Crisis Core's representation of the infamous Nibelheim incident: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gw3j1Ptswog

And this is the link to the scene in which SE pays a fan-service tribute to Sephiroth in FFXIV via Nael van Darnus (Note: skip to 3:14 for the correct part of the scene): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mahXN9_AMHI

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Originally Posted by Fatestorm

Great analysis. A note:

It's a riddle! Before the events with the reformation of the Grand Companies, I actually thought that Dalamud was Garlemald's own "primal"--obviously I was wrong. ;) My own pet theory now is that Dalamud is a prison device created by the ancient Allagan Empire to imprison Bahamut... but I suppose time will tell!

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Congratulation, I'm impressed, seriously, you found the twist.

Thanks! XD

I'm so excited about this. It's hard not to throw a tantrum about wanting FFXIV:ARR NAO! haha.

There are still a ton of questions--like why was Bahamut imprisoned in the first place? If Dalamud has *something* to do with the Ancient Allagan Empire (the Empire started its first Meteor Project at Bozja Citadel when it realized that its investigation into Allagan technology was causing reactions from Dalamud), what is the precise relation? How do the Twelve relate to the Ancient Allagan Empire, in that it seems that Louisoix tries to 're-create' a Dalamud-like prison with the power of the Twelve? When it fails, what fails? Is it the power of the Twelve that fails, or Louisoix's attempt to channel their power?

I still need time to think about all this! haha.