Skill tree. Could it branch out?

I was just playing FF1 as a first step in my play all FFs in order marathon, and I kind of liked how they made you choose 3 out of 4 spells from each level.

I was wondering what would people feel if it was like that on XIV.

Make the skill tree branch out and let players customize which skills they prefer for their character. I'm sure there will be OP skills, but also some equitative ones.

Ragnarok Online did it http://phoro.zip.net/images/acolyte.jpg and it worked perfectly. You had different builds based on different spell selections and they all were about equally good.

This would really bring variety into the game. And if different skills are affected by different modifiers, players would wind up buying different equipment and we wouldn't be all wearing the same clothes at level cap. It would also prevent the prices on certain weapons/materia from skyrocketing and would prevent other materia from being useless.

I think everyone would gravitate towards the "best" build, so everyone would still be wearing and using the same stuff and materia would still be just as expensive.

The closest you're going to get for customization is the class system and even that is limited.

Don't get me wrong, I would love more customization. I loved the idea of specialized elemental mages from launch, it just never seems to pan out. Individuality is thrown to the wayside because people don't want options.

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Originally Posted by Hart

I think everyone would gravitate towards the "best" build, so everyone would still be wearing and using the same stuff and materia would still be just as expensive.

The closest you're going to get for customization is the class system and even that is limited.

Don't get me wrong, I would love more customization. I loved the idea of specialized elemental mages from launch, it just never seems to pan out. Individuality is thrown to the wayside because people don't want options.

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Well, in RO you have DEX based assassins, LUCK based assassins, pillar of fire mages, fighting priests, vs undead priests, etc

It was designed in such way that all the builds were pretty much even

Skill trees are nice in games designed around it, XI/XIV for example are more designed around that jobs are predefined roles (FF game after all), so while there's people who want to be a WHM with a pure focus on nuking and melee and saying fuck curing, that's not gonna happen most likely xD

Side note, the only reason prices shot up on materia (certain ones) is due to Relics, otherwise there's more than enough supply to meet demand which drops prices, not raises them.

They were not even in endgame scene, there were still be cookie cutter setup when it comes to endgame content or WoE/PVP content and this cookie cutter setup was always reinforced upon players if you are in top MvP guild or serious WoE guild to even participate.

And WoW tried to counter that by allowing dual speccing (2 skill trees to switch between)

I know what you're saying, I had an AGI knight. I just think we're in a different era and people these days probably wouldn't be as receptive to that kind of stuff.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

They were not even in endgame scene, there were still be cookie cutter setup when it comes to endgame content or WoE/PVP content and this cookie cutter setup was always reinforced upon players if you are in top MvP guild or serious WoE guild to even participate.

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Of course, for WoE there are special builds. But most of the WoE builds sucks in PvE. There is always a pro and contra to every build. It is what you want to play with this char.
And for MvP, all what you needed is an Asura monk.

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Originally Posted by Hart

I know what you're saying, I had an AGI knight. I just think we're in a different era and people these days probably wouldn't be as receptive to that kind of stuff.

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what he said, it's sad but true. i seriously miss my hybrid banana sinx

The last thing I want to see are shouts for Black Mages with a specific build that isolate half the the servers Black Mages by "elitists".

Also to note, most RO builds were dependent on your cards as well, for example to be truly proficient you needed your Doppelganger cards lol, so it's somewhat like how Materia (v1.0) also determined your "build" in ARR they're really simplifying everything.

I think it will be cool if SE evolve the skill tree with each class/job so that no single build is best. Pets will probably get gambits, and I think skill tree will go nice with that too.

As others have stated, it would eventually end up in one "superior" build being accepted by the community and all others being shunned.

The only way this could work is if we could re-assign all of those points/choices easily. I mean what happens when a patch hits that nerfs one build or buffs another? If you're on the wrong end of that then that entire character is now useless unless we can respec.

What they doing that is like a skill tree is Job tree where pugilist can become Monk or Puppetmaster. At least that what yoshi-p was thinking of doing later with the job system. I guess they could release a class that could become samurai or Ninja also and even GLA+THM=Dark knight i know this one was example he give.

First thing that comes to mind is how Blu was able to switch spells (and traits) at will, but wait we kinda already do that. Admit once you unlock a job the limitations suck but to me felt same.

As for respec stats, wish we had easier access to Hymns and you could use them anywhere and not just at your weapon guild.

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Originally Posted by Andrien

I think it will be cool if SE evolve the skill tree with each class/job so that no single build is best. Pets will probably get gambits, and I think skill tree will go nice with that too.

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The only thing about this is that players really determine which build is "best" and more or less frown upon anyone who chooses to go with a different build. In FFXIV this takes the form of class/job superiority. If were to get skill trees, players would likely say "x" line of skills is better and only desire to party with people who have gone that route. Compared to RO, players tend to be extremely serious about what they take when they form parties....whether it works or not seems irrelevant much of the time. Then again SE has some blame for that too.

"Why are you using Blizzard, you should have got Thunder instead noob"

"What's this noob DRG doing with xxx ability, they should have yyy ability"

That's what we will end up with, nothing more.

And let's not forget the confusion over skill trees, you get a skill that looks good and it turns out rubbish, I for one have seen this on DCUO, it has a skill tree but you have no idea how good they are, this leads to asking friends, LS members etc which ends up with everyone using the same actions.

Anything SE can do will lead to people using the "best" actions, nothing else.

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Originally Posted by Zenaku

What they doing that is like a skill tree is Job tree where pugilist can become Monk or Puppetmaster. At least that what yoshi-p was thinking of doing later with the job system. I guess they could release a class that could become samurai or Ninja also and even GLA+THM=Dark knight i know this one was example he give.

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I really don't like the idea of 2 jobs sharing the same class. At least not in the current way it works, right now you only get like what? 5 abilities that are unique to the job? that would make for some pretty repetitive game play, in your example "monk and puppetmaster" would feel pretty much exactly the same with the exception of a few abilities. I personally prefer each job to have a completely unique feel. (Not to mention dark knight would be toting around a normal sword.) BLEH

Honestly, I wish they would just kill classes at this point, I never find a reason to switch to one outside of some weird strat for a fight. I know not everyone agrees with this for w/e reasons they have, but that's just my opinion. I would much rather see a a point system for cross skills. EXAMPLE: If I'm on Bard currently I have access to "CONJ" and "THM" for sub skills. 5/5 at level 50... why not make them "cost 1" instead of the 1 representing the "Number of abilities" it would now represent a "number of points" so I could still get 5 from CNJ and or THM but then Everything in glad would cost 2 instead of 1 etc.... so I would have less abilities for the extended option to tap into other classes. I dunno, we are a little beyond this kind of feedback honestly so I will shut up but ya. lol

I'd be ok with maybe a system like merits (though i'd prefer not to grind for them but w/e) where you can enhance a skill a certain amount of times, or have a certain amount of total upgrades.

whm: Better/cheaper cure? or longer/more powerful regen/stoneskin/protect? or better enfeeb DoT on aero/stone?

drg: increase crit rate? or longer life/power surge? or extending life surge to part?

etc, i'm sure theyd have much better ideas than i would, I'm personally just looking forward to more jobs to provide that choice

Well FF4 dark did use a normal sword. Only FFXI changed it with scythe... plus they could make it where switch to a job forces you to lose some old traits.

I don't care personally, but I get the feeling we are going to see something like Parivir > Samurai or vice-versa.

Perhaps Fighter > Dark Knight

After all SE seems to really like ideas from FFIV,V, and the Tactics series. The AF style, developer screenshot names (Faris, Delita) all seem to point in that direction.

I don't like the idea of 2 jobs from 1 class ..give each job a class ..ARR will have no limits to be greedy and use 1 class for 2-3 jobs , i like the idea of a tree system to boost certain things about a job kind of like Skyrim and FFX eventually you would fill all dots but would take a long time and lastly plz don't mix DRK with fucking magic lol just make it a bloodthirsty vicious killer a couple spells maybe to steal the life and soul of their pray but nothing else....not the FFXI DRK again...

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Originally Posted by Imoen

I really don't like the idea of 2 jobs sharing the same class. At least not in the current way it works, right now you only get like what? 5 abilities that are unique to the job? that would make for some pretty repetitive game play, in your example "monk and puppetmaster" would feel pretty much exactly the same with the exception of a few abilities. I personally prefer each job to have a completely unique feel. (Not to mention dark knight would be toting around a normal sword.) BLEH

Honestly, I wish they would just kill classes at this point, I never find a reason to switch to one outside of some weird strat for a fight. I know not everyone agrees with this for w/e reasons they have, but that's just my opinion. I would much rather see a a point system for cross skills. EXAMPLE: If I'm on Bard currently I have access to "CONJ" and "THM" for sub skills. 5/5 at level 50... why not make them "cost 1" instead of the 1 representing the "Number of abilities" it would now represent a "number of points" so I could still get 5 from CNJ and or THM but then Everything in glad would cost 2 instead of 1 etc.... so I would have less abilities for the extended option to tap into other classes. I dunno, we are a little beyond this kind of feedback honestly so I will shut up but ya. lol

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Will remember we only have 5 abilities because we level 50 and that fact is a monk still a Pug just get more stuff. A pup would have pet and each pet would do something else. So monk would focus on face to face doing bad dmg while PUP would worry about his pet also and doing stuff with it then just focus on his own dmg and as we get level 60+ more and more stuff can be added.

I think i like the idea of class having two jobs like base class and it become nin or sam or like gla could also become dark knight i'm sure SE would make the other job diff and fun.


Yoshi-p hint that he be doing this so it coming don't say you hate it to we have more information and see it working. This is the issue with a lot of stuff that release by yoshi-p people jump and say oh this sucks blah blah without even trying it i myself done this that why i wait and see now.

i myself dislike that tree system it less simple then this class can do this and that by unlocking Job a or b. People would always make this tree set better then the other while a job system is more simple to control and fix to make sure both jobs are good that just my two cent on that idea.

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Originally Posted by Zenaku

Will remember we only have 5 abilities because we level 50 and that fact is a monk still a Pug just get more stuff. A pup would have pet and each pet would do something else. So monk would focus on face to face doing bad dmg while PUP would worry about his pet also and doing stuff with it then just focus on his own dmg and as we get level 60+ more and more stuff can be added.

I think i like the idea of class having two jobs like base class and it become nin or sam or like gla could also become dark knight i'm sure SE would make the other job diff and fun.


Yoshi-p hint that he be doing this so it coming don't say you hate it to we have more information and see it working. This is the issue with a lot of stuff that release by yoshi-p people jump and say oh this sucks blah blah without even trying it i myself done this that why i wait and see now.

i myself dislike that tree system it less simple then this class can do this and that by unlocking Job a or b. People would always make this tree set better then the other while a job system is more simple to control and fix to make sure both jobs are good that just my two cent on that idea.

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Like I said " At least not in the current way it works" I wasn't jumping... I was just stating I don't like the idea and gave a reason why. It wasn't a baseless rage stomp or as you say "Blah blah". With all due respect I could say the same thing about liking the idea before you see it, besides I never said it sucked so please do not assume and put words in my mouth.

An additional reason I don't like the idea is... I know this is going to be a shock but.... I want to level more things! I don't want to just do a couple quests put some different clothes on and be like BAM I'm a gladiator with a few different things... The game is already insanely fast... if we are going to be heading in this direction of minimal work for maximum gain whats the point in even having levels in the first place?

Sorry if I find the idea of being automatically 50 for every job released now that is attached to an already existing class unappealing. Please don't respond with "That's what you get for leveling everything up so fast." either, because that is just BS at this point its been like 2 years.

With that said, If its 1 class per job I can get behind that and I'll enjoy it despite my lack of enthusiasm for classes even being present at this point. If everyone wants a system where they only need to level once and have full level access to 2-3 jobs after a few quests then great for you but don't get all asinine on me because I have a different opinion, its not like I'm saying "OMG IF YOU DO THIS I QUIT" because that's not the case I'm just voicing my concerns for the longevity of the game, excluding any endgame content. (Not me personally, but not everyone likes end game content.)

I will say it again, its kind of late in development to even be giving this kind of feedback, I'm sure they already have solidified how its going to work by now, if not... yikes.

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Originally Posted by Imoen

Like I said " At least not in the current way it works" I wasn't jumping... I was just stating I don't like the idea and gave a reason why. It wasn't a baseless rage stomp or as you say "Blah blah". With all due respect I could say the same thing about liking the idea before you see it, besides I never said it sucked so please do not assume and put words in my mouth.

An additional reason I don't like the idea is... I know this is going to be a shock but.... I want to level more things! I don't want to just do a couple quests put some different clothes on and be like BAM I'm a gladiator with a few different things... The game is already insanely fast... if we are going to be heading in this direction of minimal work for maximum gain whats the point in even having levels in the first place?

Sorry if I find the idea of being automatically 50 for every job released now that is attached to an already existing class unappealing. Please don't respond with "That's what you get for leveling everything up so fast." either, because that is just BS at this point its been like 2 years.

With that said, If its 1 class per job I can get behind that and I'll enjoy it despite my lack of enthusiasm for classes even being present at this point. If everyone wants a system where they only need to level once and have full level access to 2-3 jobs after a few quests then great for you but don't get all asinine on me because I have a different opinion, its not like I'm saying "OMG IF YOU DO THIS I QUIT" because that's not the case I'm just voicing my concerns for the longevity of the game, excluding any endgame content. (Not me personally, but not everyone likes end game content.)

I will say it again, its kind of late in development to even be giving this kind of feedback, I'm sure they already have solidified how its going to work by now, if not... yikes.

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i think the reason they doing is so they don't have to make more Class lol it's a lot of work is simple to add a addon to a class and change the rules and add stuff to it when you switch over to that job. But i have to agree i like to level stuff so ya i guess that the downside to that idea.

the new jobs while based on the same main class as others will most likely use different sub classes (like how bard uses archer and white mage, ranger could use warrior and archer).

getting a bit off topic here now though :P

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Originally Posted by Majidah

the new jobs while based on the same main class as others will most likely use different sub classes (like how bard uses archer and white mage, ranger could use warrior and archer).

getting a bit off topic here now though :P

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Doesn't matter if you have everything at 50 already i agree with imoe completely make a new class for every new job so we have something new to lvl and learn :) they doing it with SMN so they should do it with everything else ..notice how awkward Yoshi-P got when asked this question

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Originally Posted by Warlock

I don't like the idea of 2 jobs from 1 class ..give each job a class ..ARR will have no limits to be greedy and use 1 class for 2-3 jobs , i like the idea of a tree system to boost certain things about a job kind of like Skyrim and FFX eventually you would fill all dots but would take a long time and lastly plz don't mix DRK with fucking magic lol just make it a bloodthirsty vicious killer a couple spells maybe to steal the life and soul of their pray but nothing else....not the FFXI DRK again...

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If your gonna be able to fill in every skill in the skill tree why have a skill tree at all? people would just make a guide to filling that skill tree in the most efficient way and you'd be doing a player made version of what we already have.

I'm just going to wait and see what they come up with but personally i've never been a fan of being able to do nigh on everything with the class system. I'd like to see a focusing of the classes and seperation of them from each other i.e they cant use each other's skills. Instead maybe i'd like to see classes become able to solo through basic skills they have access to from the jobs they become.

As for where skill trees fit in i kind of liked the merit system from xi, for new players its not such a daunting task to sort out what you need to get when because you dont have to worry about it till your at cap and by that time you've already committed yourself.

skill trees dont really exist because your forced into one thing and forced to have skills.
just be more of a pain to do anything. you might like one skill build but guess what no one else likes it so your stuck into something you hate.

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Originally Posted by Imoen

I really don't like the idea of 2 jobs sharing the same class. At least not in the current way it works, right now you only get like what? 5 abilities that are unique to the job? that would make for some pretty repetitive game play, in your example "monk and puppetmaster" would feel pretty much exactly the same with the exception of a few abilities. I personally prefer each job to have a completely unique feel. (Not to mention dark knight would be toting around a normal sword.) BLEH

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You seem to be stuck in FFXI, classic DRK did use a normal sword, classic DRK was the complete opposite of a PLD, lower DEF, used dark/black magic instead of light/white magic, but they used normal swords, only FFXI made great sword and scythe better for them

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Originally Posted by Warlock

I don't like the idea of 2 jobs from 1 class ..give each job a class ..ARR will have no limits to be greedy and use 1 class for 2-3 jobs , i like the idea of a tree system to boost certain things about a job kind of like Skyrim and FFX eventually you would fill all dots but would take a long time and lastly plz don't mix DRK with fucking magic lol just make it a bloodthirsty vicious killer a couple spells maybe to steal the life and soul of their pray but nothing else....not the FFXI DRK again...

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Classic DRK did use black magic, DRK would work well using THM as a second class to get actions off, then for job specific actions things like sucking the life and soul from the enemies.

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Originally Posted by Delsus

You seem to be stuck in FFXI, classic DRK did use a normal sword, classic DRK was the complete opposite of a PLD, lower DEF, used dark/black magic instead of light/white magic, but they used normal swords, only FFXI made great sword and scythe better for them



Classic DRK did use black magic, DRK would work well using THM as a second class to get actions off, then for job specific actions things like sucking the life and soul from the enemies.

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http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/D...Fantasy_X-2%29

FFX-2's version of dark knight has to be my favourite version of the job so far. If SE can balance dark knight's magical and physical abilities better than xi did then i may even consider playing it myself..... Same goes for other magic+physical centric jobs like rdm its an area xi was lacklustre in with most jobs.

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Originally Posted by indira

skill trees dont really exist because your forced into one thing and forced to have skills.
just be more of a pain to do anything. you might like one skill build but guess what no one else likes it so your stuck into something you hate.

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Yep that the downside of that system and the idea Yoshi-p had is class have more then one job which allow you to play the same class but in a new way. Like GLA having dark knight which you need GLA,THM and MRD level the only downside of that is we wont level much in the game for some of us who enjoy level up a new class but at the end i enjoy storyline better and job is about story so that best way go about it. I hope Yoshi-p would get into that more later on in the game life

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Skill trees are nice in games designed around it, XI/XIV for example are more designed around that jobs are predefined roles (FF game after all), so while there's people who want to be a WHM with a pure focus on nuking and melee and saying fuck curing, that's not gonna happen most likely xD

Side note, the only reason prices shot up on materia (certain ones) is due to Relics, otherwise there's more than enough supply to meet demand which drops prices, not raises them.

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You also have to remember that on FFXI, you had to purchase spells. Not everyone is going to have all the spells up at their lvl because some spells maybe hard to come by at times. I mean, some of my friends didn't have the teleport spells for WHM at one point because they were busy with lvling up that they couldn't do the quest. I know for me, gil was a serious issue and I always spent it on the spells and gear, and I only have abou 200k left on FFXI :(

As others have said, it creates more pigeonholing and thus doesn't really make more variety in the end.

FFXIV does a decent enough job offering some variation by way of cross class skills.

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Originally Posted by KamikazeMan

The last thing I want to see are shouts for Black Mages with a specific build that isolate half the the servers Black Mages by "elitists".

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This is easily fixed by making difference in damage between black mages minimal regardless of spell line chosen.

The reason it didn't work the last time this was tried was because damage potential of spells scaled depending on the level you acquired them. This is why it was better for a BLM to merit Lightning Potency and get Burst II or Ice Potency with Freeze II. Everything else was a waste, and the players knew it.

Of course, if you want to make all builds mechanically different and be on par in performance (especially for non-mage classes and jobs), then you have potential headaches.

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Originally Posted by Majidah

Well, in RO you have DEX based assassins, LUCK based assassins, pillar of fire mages, fighting priests, vs undead priests, etc

It was designed in such way that all the builds were pretty much even

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That won't cut it. MMO's are about min maxing.

I believe that our sub abilities should be incorporated more into the job to help with variety.

Example: My Idea of rdm implementation
Job: Red Mage
Requirements: Fencer 30, CNJ 15, THM 15
Sub classes would obviously be cnj and thm

RDM lvl 30 ability: Elemental strike
-Delivers a non-elemental damage attack
Combo: Fire/Blizzard/Thunder/Cure/Aero/Stone
-Changes the element to element of prior combo spell, and does additional effects based on previous spell

It would work like this:
Fire -> Elemental Strike(ES) = Flame strike(pacification + fire damage)
Thunder -> ES = Thunder strike(stun + lightning damage
...etc, earth would give slow, ice would give paralyze, aero would give silence, water would give poison

The lvl 35 ability would be something for utility, idk about this

RDM lvl 40 would be a ws that finishes off a fencer 3 step combo

RDM Lvl 45 - Spell Blade (couldn't think of a name - SB for short)
This ability would allow access to a four step combo. The combo would be:
Spell -> ES -> spell -> SB
Depending on which two spells used, different effects would happen
Example
Aero -> ES = Windstrike + silence -> Aero = Spell Blade: Whirlwind(add effect dispelga)
or
Aero -> ES = Windstrike + silence -> water = Spell Blade: Typhoon(erases one debuff of all party members)
or
Thunder -> ES = Thunderstrike + stun -> Thunder = Spell Blade: Indignation(Lightning damage and AoE Stun, and/or always crits)

I could go on and on and on, but I won't, to many combos to think of. But I hope this illustrates how many options SE can pull off with the class system if done right, even in its current state. RDM would be a front line DD like everyone wanted it be with this set up, and get cool effects.

TLDR: There is alot of potential in incorporating the abilities of sub classes for a job into combos.

Really don't like this idea for FFXIV.

We already have a good amount of liberty with the discipline classes to be creative with our own builds. I'm also not a big fan of choosing one thing over another; and even if I were given liberty to switch freely between previous choices.. I wouldn't really see the point. I'd much rather have SE build-upon and perfect our current system.. and give each job/discipline a great deal of options so we can use/not use what we want, but still have complete access to it.

Otherwise, this idea sounds very similar to the merit point system that exists in XI. It's initial point was to allow players at the level cap to basically make choices between different job abilities/spells/traits. "Do I want to focus on enfeebling, or do I want to focus on enhancing?" "Soloing/Lowman or large group specialties?" When the merit point system existed with the hard 75 level cap, it was "kind of cool". Some jobs had no brainer options, others were torn between what kind of utility they desired. As far as I'm aware, once the level cap got lifted, the merit point system just felt limiting.

So; yes please to more tools and more unique abilities per job/discipline. No thank you for having to sacrifice one trait/ability for another. That kind of decision already gets made when you change jobs. (WAR vs PLD, MNK vs DRG, THM vs BRD, ect.)

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Originally Posted by Delsus

You seem to be stuck in FFXI, classic DRK did use a normal sword, classic DRK was the complete opposite of a PLD, lower DEF, used dark/black magic instead of light/white magic, but they used normal swords, only FFXI made great sword and scythe better for them


Classic DRK did use black magic, DRK would work well using THM as a second class to get actions off, then for job specific actions things like sucking the life and soul from the enemies.

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That is not what I was getting at, but I can see how my statement would give off that impression. I simply meant that I don't want to be toting the same weapon on gld pld and drk.