Skill based gameplay

I was thinking about where the fundamentals of the gameplay are headed, especially since PVP looks to be making a big impact.

from the sounds of it SE is aiming more towards a skill based game more than a numbers or spreadsheet type gameplay which i think going away from what FF is traditionally. is that a good or bad thing?

with the current set of abilitys how do you see PVP playing out?

1. if it was more skill based what kind of dynamics constitute skill based gameplay?

personally i think tera is a perfect example, i would love to be able to use dragoons evasive jump on a low cooldown to dodge aoe attacks.

2. if its a numbers game then obviously things like stats and gear play a larger role... will we see two blm's in pvp just spaming their best nukes and whoever wins is the person with the best gear?

a mix of both?

I hope its a mix of both, personally.

I see this thread getting totally derailed because its going to turn into a "Why FFXIV is not Guild Wars 2" thread.

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Originally Posted by Rau

I see this thread getting totally derailed because its going to turn into a "Why FFXIV is not Guild Wars 2" thread.

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yeh lol, i hesitated in mentioning tera but i thought it was such a good example.

The main problem is that FFXIV is one type of RPG style, and it seems some people want a different one. FFXIV is more of the "point and click" style of strategy game play, even if using a gamepad. Everything in the fight takes time, and is planned out.
What some seem to want it a more action styled battle system, like Guildwars 2 or Tera. Those types of battles are similar to "point and clicks" but ad a little bit of dynamic evasion to the fights.
Then you have a third type, more along the lines of Phantasy Star Online/Universe or Monster Hunter. These games are pure action, everything in the fight is dynamic and ever changing every second.

The main issue here is that FFXIV is a point and click style, and many want a mic or pure action style, and that is just not what the game is.

The dodgeing of eruptions and coincointers 100T swings is obviously a ploy at a skill dynamic, infact thats one of the things im looking forward to most in 2.0, because i really think the lag kills it for me at the moment.

if instead of having to "walk" out of the way to evade- i had an ability for doing it, i think it would be perfect.

dragoon have this allready but its a long cooldown so it makes it pretty much redundent.

i think eruptions and plumes are the perfect example of what i think AOE attacks that are meant to be evaded should be like, because i dont have to read the stupid log to see what i should do.

an example of what i hate is having to read the log to see what i should do, like maybe coincounter should do something really dramatic before he does a 100T swing. similarly with chimeara and garuda.

It's a World of Fantasy, theres nothing to discuss here.

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Originally Posted by Risae

It's a World of Fantasy, theres nothing to discuss here.

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How insightful, thanks for the contribution.

I like a mixture of gear and skill (honestly, I've always hated the gear treadmill in every MMO, but it seems that without this many folk would just stop playing as they need to 'aim' for the shiny baubles), in that the gear allows you to do the damage / healing / tanking necessary to complete the encounter but the skill being in dodging effects that break up what would otherwise be a pure numbers game - for example, staying out of the fire is always important.

There is nothing I hate more than having a first swing at an enemy (this is from my brief play of Final Fantasy XI a while back) and knowing from the damage done, that you will lose the fight no matter what you do. With the current mixture of gear / skill in Final Fantasy XIV I know that I can turn a fight around - even at low level - through good use of my abilities.

A perfect example of this is from Old Republic - I'm currently playing a Mercenary Bounty Hunter, and have a few moves that can make a huge difference to how a fight pans out if I do them well. I have a missile that sticks to (and stuns) targets that are 'Normal' before detonating for damage that knocks them and any other normal enemies down. I have a rocket that puts the target - and others nearby - on fire and makes them unable to act until it fades. I also have a skill on a 1 minute cooldown that puts the target out of action, but heals it (any damage breaks it free) - I generally use this on 'Tough' enemies, who are immune to the control effects of the rocket and missile.

Depending on what I'm fighting, and how they / I am posisitioned, good use of these abilities (my skill) can mean I don't take any damage at all, while flubbing my lines can mean that I'm in for a tough slog. Of course, the better gear I have, the easier it is - both if I do well and if I make mistakes. Honestly, it is one of the things I really enjoy about Old Republic - every group has me thinking, which is a huge step up from World of Warcraft.

It is one of the things I currently enjoy with some of the attacks and combos in this game - for example, Leg Sweep and...ah, I can't remember the name but the one that combos after that which pierces through enemies in a line. Same with the choice of comboing the White Mage / Conjurer attacks Stonera and Aerora - do you do the combo for better single target, or do you make the choice to AoE you current targets?

Honestly, I don't like 'active' dodging and such - I find it really strange to do in Guild Wars 2, though it is possibly because I just enjoy the more 'traditional' MMO fare of the majority of things being abilities - if it was on my action bar rather than double tapping a button, I'd probably be happy.

I've only had to dodge twice in GW2.. ever.

It's definitely not an action mmorpg (does dodging and more aoes really make a game action orientated). That being said, while TERA is an action mmorpg, it could be done so much better (besides the horrible questing system and solo grind).

In my opinion It's one or the other.


Also It depends on what you define as skill based gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Kailea_Nagisa

The main problem is that FFXIV is one type of RPG style, and it seems some people want a different one. FFXIV is more of the "point and click" style of strategy game play, even if using a gamepad. Everything in the fight takes time, and is planned out.
What some seem to want it a more action styled battle system, like Guildwars 2 or Tera. Those types of battles are similar to "point and clicks" but ad a little bit of dynamic evasion to the fights.
Then you have a third type, more along the lines of Phantasy Star Online/Universe or Monster Hunter. These games are pure action, everything in the fight is dynamic and ever changing every second.

The main issue here is that FFXIV is a point and click style, and many want a mic or pure action style, and that is just not what the game is.

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Even though its not true action, it still wants you to dodge stuff the way true action MMOs do. And not just for bosses, its everywhere, even normal field mobs give you a chance to run back, forwards, left or right to dodge something. We have no gameplay tools for doing that, we just kinda stomp about clumsily, waving our weapons in the air.

TERA knew what it wanted to be, so every class has adjusted combat speed depending on their fighting range, visual tells for every move you need to dodge, and every class has a way of dodging, teleporting or blocking these attacks on reaction. The reason is because if theyre gonna make you have to dodge something so often, they want it to be as fluid and enjoyable as possible. It could just be me, but i enjoyed doing a forward roll through a mob to dodge his frontal attack, far more than i do taking off target lock and just slowly staggering in a direction. I also loved their shield tanks reaction blocking, because it made them such a fortress, they took every hit on the nose and very few things had them dropping shield to turn tail and run.

I'm definitley not saying FFXIV should be TERA or turn to true action combat, mind you. Simply that if youre going to have us dodge stuff so often, itd be nice to see some style. =D Saying that though, i dont believe this is something they would ever do, i think too much groundwork has been done. XIV is an unusual combination of different aspects of MMO battle and to go in one direction would mean forsaking aspects of others.

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Originally Posted by Orca

Even though its not true action, it still wants you to dodge stuff the way true action MMOs do. And not just for bosses, its everywhere, even normal field mobs give you a chance to run back, forwards, left or right to dodge something. We have no gameplay tools for doing that, we just kinda stomp about clumsily, waving our weapons in the air.

TERA knew what it wanted to be, so every class has adjusted combat speed depending on their fighting range, visual tells for every move you need to dodge, and every class has a way of dodging, teleporting or blocking these attacks on reaction. The reason is because if theyre gonna make you have to dodge something so often, they want it to be as fluid and enjoyable as possible. It could just be me, but i enjoyed doing a forward roll through a mob to dodge his frontal attack, far more than i do taking off target lock and just slowly staggering in a direction. I also loved their shield tanks reaction blocking, because it made them such a fortress, they took every hit on the nose and very few things had them dropping shield to turn tail and run.

I'm definitley not saying FFXIV should be TERA or turn to true action combat, mind you. Simply that if youre going to have us dodge stuff so often, itd be nice to see some style. =D Saying that though, i dont believe this is something they would ever do, i think too much groundwork has been done. XIV is an unusual combination of different aspects of MMO battle and to go in one direction would mean forsaking aspects of others.

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this is kind of the way i see it, we are essentially having to dodge like you say by "walking" around, i cant help but think it would add so much style to the game to have dodge abilitys on low cooldowns.

sure there are abilitys like featherfoot etc, but there like 3-4 abilitys that do essentially the same thing, except their all on kind of long cooldowns, and all of them beside sentinal dont have any effect besides in most cases a boss mobs auto attack.

As a healer in TERA I loved how dynamic fights could be. FF has it's perks, but I still feel like ultimately it's still "cure target 1, cure target 2, repeat"

FF could learn a lot from TERA, but I still know they should, and will keep it true to it's brand.

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Originally Posted by Orca

We have no gameplay tools for doing that, we just kinda stomp about clumsily, waving our weapons in the air.

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We have. Example: If a Dodo use his Sleep AoE, run behind him in the right moment to dodge it. Keep target-lock off

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Originally Posted by Felis

We have. Example: If a Dodo use his Sleep AoE, run behind him in the right moment to dodge it. Keep target-lock off

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I like this kind of stuff SE has done before, but I'm pretty sure they use a weird timer then an actual conal detection - or at least detect before the breath has finished.

Since you can get sleeped even if you went behind (obviously you have to wait a second instead of going immediately but I dont like getting hit by things I didn't appear to get hit by).

I'd like to see a roll directional feature in gameplay, double tap a direction (keyboard) and you can quickly doge in that direction. Obviously with a sort of cooldown so you dont have it being spammed making fights a bunch of rammus's running about.

I think its funny people think of FF needing to have a slowed down combat style - because if you've ever watched their cinimetics they have always toted a fast paced very dynamic combat style.


All that being said, It would be very scary to test out a entirely dynamic combat system on FFXIV. Since a lot of players here right now dont want that kind of thing, and they (SE) have never done it before.

With current skill sets the only way i can see having 'skill based' play is for team objectives. and skill as a group.

IE: escort an NPC to a X location to take/destroy a strategic point. if the map is more maze like you can split people up along certain paths, set up decoys, etc. enemy team would need to send out scouts, set traps/ambushes etc.

if you want to avoid a gear race, gear would need to add an indirect advantage to PvP. IE: pvp is based on objectives that are "NPCs" gear increases your damage towards PCs by a % in addition to giving you nice stats/bonuses. (potion Cooldown, etc.) because objectives are NPCs, and your damage to them is not directly affected any more than normal, it won't really give you a huge advantage except you have an easier time of dispatching the defenders. which may or may not help, depending on the situation.