Future changes to Monks in A Realm Reborn: Hopefully an Improvement!

Hello.

This is a message I was writing and I would like to post it now, updating it after what I read today, while I wait for auroras to catch the final glimpses of the current Eorzea. :) Thanks if the community reps could forward it to Yoshida-san and his team.
For the other readers, here I'm talking about something quite specific and as usual if you miss one line you'll most likely understand the opposite of what I'm trying to say. This could probably be understood better if Monk is your main Job and, even if you have all the battle classes at level 50, is still the one you enjoy the most. :)

Just a few days ago, Yoshida gave me the good news that in A Realm Reborn Speed Runs won't be mandatory as they're now and that we adventurers will be able to stay in the dungeons as much as we want.

Today I'm reading another unexpected statement, precisely this (thanks to Reinheart for the translation):

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Yoshida: Battle will change a lot. Specially for MNK want to say sorry

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Warning: This is not a post to discuss if this will either be good or bad, as we can't know yet from that single sentence.
However, I would like to use this occasion to say how Monk works now.

I stay in Eorzea at particular time zones, so it's quite difficult to do events with adventurers that I know and I mainly play with japanese pals.
In the last weeks, however, since I'm trying to complete 3 special tasks before A Realm Reborn, I've reactivated the shout filters in Ul'dah, and noticed that the treatment to Monks hasn't changed.
I can at least amuse myself to the different type of refusals/disagreements I get each time I ask to join a party :D, and I always take a screen of them to have a further laugh later and read again the dialogues.
The following 3 are some of the most recent ones:

http://static2.finalfantasyxiv.com/a...TsQp6Ha1_E.jpg

http://static2.finalfantasyxiv.com/a...TsQQ2HlBN4.jpg

http://static2.finalfantasyxiv.com/a...TsQQ71AiAM.jpg

I cannot cut, edit and upload every single picture I've labeled in my folder as: “Monk, no thanks!”, but trust my Subliman's word that there're a lot more.
About the above 3 examples, why those adventurers were puzzled? What battle could that have been? Cutter's Cry? Garuda? No... Ifrit! :D Yes! Lately I've been noticing that Monks don't seem requested anymore for Ifrit as well.
The fun thing about the messages above is that who said that, even if the party won the battle, found themselves horizontal during the fight. All of them. I won't post the screen with the big red arrow I drew pointing at the corpse of the Thaumaturge, though, lest he be around and not get the humour of it. :D

Keep in mind that I'm talking about this according to my experience. Then of course, if *you* are a Monk like me, you know as much as I do that with a Monk in party Ifrit can go down in less than 8 minutes, like I usually kill him in a good party. If there're no mistakes, the food I eat lasts me for the following match, too.
And most importantly, I've fun in battling the Lord of the Inferno each time. I don't need the Inferno Totems, but just fight him because I like doing it and he remains the primal I prefer.

So, partly, this commonplace of Monks being worse than other Jobs is just that: a commonplace.
Sincerely I've no idea when it arrived. It must be always due to that Speed Runs/AoE feast trend that was introduced... Holy Aldgoat, when I think about it, just like today when I participated in Caravan Escorts with 2 different groups (I wasn't doing almost anything, due to Black Mages killing everything with AoE at light speed), I always turn like this:

http://www.gwcdn.com/albums/images/5...4995001c86.jpg

Therefore, Monks are now feared for Ifrit parties as well. And of course, for Garuda, in the last weeks I've not seen a single shout asking for Monks. Like I said, since I play at particular times, I cannot often find 7 adventurers online contemporaneously. I'm mainly on around Japanese evening-night hours, and they're the only ones who make a good use of the very useful Party Recruit function.
So I read the shout and look for the Recruit, just to not find it, meaning my Job is not requested, and translating the kanji Monks are indeed left out of Garuda parties as well.

This of course doesn't mean that Monks are useless for Garuda. Again, if you're a Monk, you know you aren't. Simply, adventurers tend to prefer other Jobs, faster Jobs.


In the past I had already illustrated how Monks cannot get parties for Speed Runs, except of course from friends or linkshell who want to do atypical runs (and I give those a big /clap).
I'm a Monk, my main and only Job as a Disciple of War, I've no interest to level up the other Classes and if one day I will, it'll be only for the beautiful quests.

Due to the bad design of the Speed Runs, there's not a chance in the world to find a random group for them, even though for the Aurum Vale is indeed possible to do the Speed Run, like shown in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVlLSzCff_o

I may talk about Skirmish as well. Those 2 islands are made in a way that, once again, tend to ask for “Burn parties” (I think that's how they're called).
There's Locke's Lie that is good for melees, particularly for Monks with the right “Fist of” skill activated, while Turtleback Island – that, allows me to say, with those giants running around is my favourite – tend to favor long-range Jobs. Starting from the Greater Buffalo, close-range fighters are at a disadvantage... but that's where the fun is! I have a blast in fighting the buffalo, timing the Stuns correctly he can hardly ever attack and when he does, having High Evasion helps; and once this first obstacle is cleared, there're the other colossi (I particularly like the Bixie and incapacitate its evil tail).

I stopped doing Skirmish with random groups because we were always going to that Locke's Lie and when I asked: “Hey, can we go to the other island to vary a bit?”, you can imagine the answer.


Since I cannot force adventurers to open their mind and don't be afraid to try different Jobs combinations, at least I can ask Yoshida-san and the dev team to put a balance to this Job for a Realm Reborn.

I like my Job of Monk, have fun with it and can get parties with open-minded adventurers that I know, so I'm not complaining about anything here (what could be misinterpreted). I'm not worrying in advance for that statement of Yoshida. This is a message I was already writing on the current situation, and I'm sure whatever they'll do I'll still enjoy my Job.
But what I illustrated is simply how it works now for Monks, tested and proved, and there's no denying that, at the current state, Monk is the most flawed of all the Jobs.

That said, I don't know why Yoshida apologized to Monks for the changes in A Realm Reborn, but I hope that this Job will be more balanced and requested, particularly thinking about the Content Finder feature.
Let us Monks really shine in the New Eorzea! :cool:

Thanks for reading.

Cloudio Onizuka, still proud Monk of Eorzea

If all that happen on pick up groups (PUGs) then that is the normal response of people in there since they want to do it the safest(don't know is that's a world) way, tank usually war 2whms and the rest blms for ifrit. On LS is an other story ppl are more flexible and actually do ifrit, garuda. AV/CC with mnk and drg no problem.

Edit: at least for my experience is like that

Leave my monk alone!!! There needs to be a ability to cancel out dmg for mnks. "Bullet Prove Monk" they call me!

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Originally Posted by PSxpert2011

Leave my monk alone!!! There needs to be a ability to cancel out dmg for mnks. "Bullet Prove Monk" they call me!

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Proof! Bullet Proof!

Monk's are best at single target damage and probably the weakest at aoe. Monks do excel at some fights (Miser/Ifrit) and do well at others (Chimera/Garuda).

If the Devs designed Mnk to excel at single target dps then the class is fine, but you can't blame the community or the job if you're going to pigeonhole yourself into playing Mnk exclusively.

Bottom line Monk isn't great at aoe damage, play other jobs too.

I thought this thread would be different from your typical MNK persecution threads, but I see it is not.

I play MNK. I know it works fine. You know it works fine. The deficiency is not a mechanical one. It's a matter of public perception, which often develops like this:

1. The average X is incompetent, or played by people who don't understand how to X.
2. Players observe X "sux" and make sure everyone knows it to cover up their own shortcomings.
2a. A good X demonstrates X does not "sux."
2b. Former Xs or more incompetent players try to X in light of 2a, underperform, go back to 2.
3. The community reinforces the belief that X "sux" to the detriment of everybody who wants to play X.
4. The only successful Xs are Xs who build their own reputation for quality in a small circle; the popular opinion is still X "sux" until the paradigm changes at some point.
5. When the paradigm finally changes, X is heralded as the best thing. People flock to X. Go back to 1.

In FFXI, MNK remained unaltered for seven years. Despite no mechanical change on the development side, player perception of MNK was volatile: first MNK sucked because low damage per hit and no Distortion until 60. Then they were good because high DPS! Then they were bad because too much mob TP. Then they were good! Then bad. Then, for some reason, MNK was flavor of the year. Then people wanted SAM instead. There was a MNK/SAM once. He was awful.

My point is, asking the development team to correct the opinions of the community is not the way to go. Public awareness campaigns aren't going to help either, since getting the word out isn't going to make MNKs better unless they already have an interest in bettering themselves.

I suggest you form your own circle for doing content and, if you are actually a good player and these threads aren't so much hot air, you can go MNK anywhere you like. PUGs don't know you. They only know your job--any opinion surrounding that job will certainly outweigh what you, as a player, claim you are capable of.

What Almalexia says, MNK isn't terrible and they do surprisingly well in about everything, its just the public stigma and tbh even devs couldnt change how PUGs wants to run in a safest way possible, it never happens in any MMO. If you want to play your favourite job and thinks you really excells on it, find a linkshell that are openminded.

Also pickup 17m CC meleeing chimera ftw.
http://www.gwcdn.com/albums/images/5...498e001771.jpg

Basically...you said it yourself up until the end...

There isn't much wrong with mnk now...just people.

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Originally Posted by Rau

Proof! Bullet Proof!

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yeah!! ^^

....................

probably gonna make us MNK's main heals :(

I don't know if I can define myself a “good” Monk: I'm no hardcore and play very casually in my armchair, sometimes I do mess up in battle and try to learn from it. Actually, I don't think I know adventurers who are “hardcore”... and that's fine. The last japanese party I had for Garuda, I think I did quite well, but of course I'm not alone. We got defeated all the times and had a laugh at it. :)

What I liked about the Garuda battle is that at the very beginning it looked like an ultra-difficult task just to survive Aerial Blast... but after practicing and practicing, I ended up seeing Aerial dealing 1500 damage and I begun to tell myself: “Hey, it's not that hard.”. And I've no Relic Weapon nor Darklight Gear, while all my attempts at double-meld with Fingerless Raptorskin Gloves of Slaying +1 rest peacefully in Erralig's Burial Chamber.
Of course, here I'm talking about parties with known adventurers; with random ones, it stays as I described in the first post.

While about this:

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

Also pickup 17m CC meleeing chimera ftw.
http://www.gwcdn.com/albums/images/5...498e001771.jpg

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I think this type of “public awareness” is always a good thing: I believe it helps to post and share personal experiences like this, to show the adventurers out there that “it is possible”. I'm talking generally, by now things have changed a little and we know that Monks can do well against chimera (I've yet to see a full Cutter's Cry Speed Run with a Monk, but I'm sure it is possible).

I, for one, will always try to document these type of tasks when I manage to accomplish them, and if there're enough adventurers doing it, who knows, maybe the general perception may change and one realizes: “Hey, Monk is actually useful here.”.

It's for this reason that I believe the first approach in A Realm Reborn will be really important: we shouldn't get battles and challenges simply based on AoE feasts like the trend has developed until now, so much that most of the adventurers are afraid to try different setups (see the Ifrit example), but rather battles where each Job could be as much useful.

It's been a while since I reached the chimera, but if I'm not mistaken, after the Jobs' adjustments, that battle now is the perfect example of each Job being useful: mages killing soldiers with their AoE, while fighters tackling the beast.
Here, if in A Realm Reborn they will make these type of battles the new trend, making each Job do its part, that alone would be the improvement I'm looking for. :)

The thing about monks is they are a very situational DD, but the situations where it is useful it can outshine every other DPS class. You just have to pick and choose your battles. The trick is finding monsters that are weak to earth, wind or fire. Miser is a good example of this, as a group of monks can burn it down quickly since its weak to fire. Ifrit extreme is also a decent example where people sometimes decide to use monks since its weak to wind, the only disadvantage is keeping your mp pool supplied. If you can do that you have excellent spike damage that is even better than a dragoons.

Its not an issue of monks not being good its just a community thing where people only want to stay within the constraints of what they know and not think about the possibilities of each class. Heres a video of a strategy that I thought up that utilizes monks. I am not going to say I was the first to think this up or whatever because I am sure there may be someone on some server that may have already been doing this, but I am not aware of any. Anyways heres the video

http://www.twitch.tv/requiem_lacrimosa/b/329938432#

Its basically the black mage relic leve utilizing 2 monks instead of a tank. For those of you that don't know the black mage leve is considered one of the hardest relic faction leves outside of the warrior one. I originally realized how useful monk was when I decided to try it on a whim and test out hundred fists damage on the princess when it was weak to fire during my linkshells first relic rotation and I realized you can pop hundred fists and do about 15-20% of the princesses hp in damage when its weak to fire. After I did this I noticed multiple people that had actually been there from other linkshells attemtping the leve with the party setup pld/blm/blm/whm on the forums touting that using a monk in the setup was actually alot better than having an extra black mage and made it substantially easier. Anyways, this time around I convinced my linkshell members to try this crazy idea where we would fight it without a traditional tank, and a fight that originally took us about 12 hours to beat only took us 3 tries with a new black mage that had never experienced the fight before. We have since replicated the success in less than 5 tries with 3 more black mages this round of relics using this set up, and I want to emphasize only one of those fights was a fight where we had a monk with Spharai in the party.

The bottom line is, the jobs are all fairly well balanced and each has their use. Its the community that needs to be fixed not the battle mechanics. This was the same issue dragoon was having a few months back before people realized you could use them in cutters cry and they were just as effective as black mages in the opening portion, and you don't need bv minuet to destroy princess. /endrant

As far as the above post, I agree that public awareness is probably the best course of action for this. Maybe someone can make a post somewhere with videos of different strategies using different setups for each dungeon to show that other classes can be utilized. I know Signore alone probably has a ton of footage of him doing things with setups that are out of the norm just for the hell of it.

OMG, TEXT-WALLS *hurdle jump* ... made it through.

IF THERE'S CHANGES TO MNK or any other job for that matter, we should make it our own! Let us decide what to alter because it our job, our character and our own MMO with a new voice on the new FFXIV ARR 2.0 trailer!

BETTER to make DRK or WHM changes than mess with MNK! No one, not even the xIv DEFs should mess with MNK. You can add, let US alter but NEVER take away from FFxIv. I was hope that was the policy from the very start in which I was very proud of about this online game.

Respect the Monk!

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Originally Posted by Rau

Proof! Bullet Proof!

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But he has to prove himself to the bullet!

We've all seen this : MNK is good.
Right now, general idea make it sucks, nothing else. To change a general idea, you just have to make people want to play MNK, not by buffing it, or nerfing others, but by making it fun to play...that's why I think : Make a new combat system, especially for MNK.

What system ? Fighting game system ! Or, more accurately, FFVI system. Remove all TP cost of Pugilist/MNK WS, and make people do command input to unleash them.
For all of us who loved Sabin in FFVI, it'll feel really FINAL FANTASY-ish.
And for others, they'll say, "Ok, I'll try it, it's a really nice change of pace...hey, wait a minute ! This job is actually pretty good !"

There, new trend launched ! Everybody love MNK :D

Monks actually do very well in the game and an all MNK Chimera is a very fast process if people know how to dodge. One thing I do wish however is that they are more AoE friendly. Not to a large extent, just enough to make them useful in mob clearing.

Aura Pulse already can 1shot plume, minion ant and bring down nails on ifrit extreme.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

Aura Pulse already can 1shot plume, minion ant and bring down nails on ifrit extreme.

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I didn't mean for bosses, I meant in mob groups. DRG's have Leg Sweep and Ring of Talons and WAR's have Steel Cyclone and Whirlwind. However, I think all jobs are getting some change in the new battle system, so I will see what they have in store before saying anything.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

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What system ? Fighting game system ! Or, more accurately, FFVI system. Remove all TP cost of Pugilist/MNK WS, and make people do command input to unleash them.
For all of us who loved Sabin in FFVI, it'll feel really FINAL FANTASY-ish.
...

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Firedance, Bodyslam! (Yes please!)


exclusive move, up, left, down, right, down, left, up + bodyslam action= mega powerslam!

I actually REALLY enjoy playing Monk, and it's a great joy to play it. To me, I find it very fast-paced and safe to play as. My friend on the forums here and on my LS, Doctor Beatbox, will agree with me on that. He helped me get my jobs unlocked, and he literally tore those monsters apart and ripped them a new A-hole. Monk will be my first job to get AF for.

I swear to the Twelve...if Fists of Wind is removed...there will be hell to pay!

Monk happens to be my favorite job, it just never gets to go to things because people are jerks. I really hope it stays fun in A Realm Reborn...because I want to punch the hell out of everything again...

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Originally Posted by Naraku_Diabolos

I actually REALLY enjoy playing Monk, and it's a great joy to play it. To me, I find it very fast-paced and safe to play as. My friend on the forums here and on my LS, Doctor Beatbox, will agree with me on that. He helped me get my jobs unlocked, and he literally tore those monsters apart and ripped them a new A-hole. Monk will be my first job to get AF for.

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Oh snap! /namedropped! :D

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Originally Posted by Velhart

I didn't mean for bosses, I meant in mob groups. DRG's have Leg Sweep and Ring of Talons and WAR's have Steel Cyclone and Whirlwind. However, I think all jobs are getting some change in the new battle system, so I will see what they have in store before saying anything.

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MNK was also mentioned as the Princess DD, and personally for the above mentioned reasons I think DRG is better. Either way, MNK/DRG really speed up that fight.

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Originally Posted by KiriA500

I swear to the Twelve...if Fists of Wind is removed...there will be hell to pay!

Monk happens to be my favorite job, it just never gets to go to things because people are jerks. I really hope it stays fun in A Realm Reborn...because I want to punch the hell out of everything again...



Oh snap! /namedropped! :D

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Lol! :) You remind me of my one friend whom I played with on my LS on FFXI, though he was a BLM. You're very good at MNK, DB.

Seems like with every change to the game comes more change as if it's still an unfinished product! I don't mind changes to make it prettier, run more smoother and crash less... all that can be pushed up for expansions. Don't mess with monk!

read my text SE: DO NOT CHANGE MONK (or any other job for that matter). We still learning about each one of then and there's still level caps to break.

i think it's already too late for that. Isn't just a mnk problem, every other job is getting modified, so everyone will re-learn his job. Oh well, we already did one, we'll do twice

These kind of threads sometimes remind me how DRG in FFXI used to be underestimated and made fun of by people who would usually ride the ignorant bandwagon of elitist jerks.
I really don't understand why people don't add MNK to their ptys, i really like to have them in my groups. Me as a DRG and a MNK can destroy anything in a heart beat. :)
PS: i have always hated how some people tell others to play another class if the one they like doesn't "work". Wankers.

You can use any job for any instance, it just depends on who is setting it up. If you are talking about PUGs then the majority of the groups are going to be the cookie cutter layout. It is just easier for the community to use the most simple strategy when grouping with people they don't know. It also lessens the amount of time spent explaining the strategy because it is always the same.

But as I said before, you can use any job for any instance as long as the group is setup in the right way. Ifrit is pretty simple to begin with and can be done in 4 minutes but a skilled blm is always going to out-damage any other class simply because the fight is so easy for them. Garuda is probably the most fair of all the fights in terms of what classes excel. I, personally, prefer to have a set up of pld, whm, drgx2, brdx2, blm, mnk and it works pretty well. Monk is actually more of the swing vote if you will, being able to switch from magic to physical damage (plus taunt) on the fly can save a group from a wipe if played properly.

I guess my advice is stop playing with PUGs. They tend to use the strategy with the least resistance, even if it isn't the best.

So does anyone have a idea about the changes? What is the Monk problem?? Do they not do enough damage? Are monks not fast enough, not enough dps?(i'm sure this is BS, cause I grab equal hate from Warriors).

Are they going to do the same to Monk like they did to Warrior? Is the Af too ugly, what??

I know but won't tell you

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Originally Posted by PSxpert2011

What is the Monk problem??

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You assume it is a problem, but Yoshida's statement is ambiguous.

I highly doubt MNK was sabotaged during 2.0's development. It's more likely the playstyle/abilities for MNK changed in 2.0 more than other jobs, so we MNKs making the transition from 1.0 to 2.0 will have more to relearn than, say, WAR or DRG.

total assumption inside : from the like he said "sorry" and looking eva bonus on sphairai..they're returning to the original idea mnk = evasion tank?
I would be both happy and horrified D:

i think he meant sorry because like you said monk play style is going to change, right now monk is the best single target dps. I think its going to change to a dps a little over war (which is bad), with lots of debuffs from weapon skills and little more enmity to enable it to evasion tank.

That's kinda odd. My LS requires that you have certain jobs properly geared at 50 if they're going to support you for a relic (so you can pull your weight in dungeon speedruns and such). One of them is black mage of course. The other is MNK. Actually, I think MNK is one of our more common DDs for events in general.

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Originally Posted by DrakoRocks

i think he meant sorry because like you said monk play style is going to change, right now monk is the best single target dps. I think its going to change to a dps a little over war (which is bad), with lots of debuffs from weapon skills and little more enmity to enable it to evasion tank.

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This leads one to assume no other job will be touched in ARR -- I don't think he's likely referring to it may simply be the mechanic changes that could hurt the way monk plays and it will likely have a different skill set or effects tied to it versus now. We still know little about the battle system though.

My ls uses monks for AV, CC, Garuda, Ifrit, Darnus, Skirmish, just about everything! If any class needs changes it should be DRG in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by yukikaze_yanagi

... .they're returning to the original idea mnk = evasion tank?
I would be both happy and horrified D:

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More of a horrified note, when I think of evasion tank, ninja comes to mind. I know this isn't FFxi but monk wasn't a sissy even in Vanadiel. Monk would take the hit while guarding and counter them and pulling his/her own weight on punches x2 at a time. In Eorzea, I understand SE can flip tanking styles because martial artist tend to build their skills on speed adn evasion so I know where your coming from. Monk can be the ultimate tank considering abilities that could be added(guarding, dodge, perfect counter, the counter stance, focus and many others) that weren't around yet.

Will monk only be viewed as a Damage Dealer? Will it evade and counter to Tank? Will it have the Guarding trait or skill to take or be a Hate Distributor(hmm). Will SE introduce a 2nd (off hand) weapon for DoL to add spice to the battle?

As everyone knows, unlike other classes, there's many styles of martial arts and the pugilist class isn't a exception from bringing it to the table. To me, jobs would equivalent to the style a person wants to play in his/her class, it's doesn't make the role good or bad/ wrong or right. I do want to believe the DEV team and SE is opening more diversity to play styles and giving us more option so we don't get the "cookie cutter" set-ups we're getting now.

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Originally Posted by OctaviusEvergreen

My ls uses monks for AV, CC, Garuda, Ifrit, Darnus, just about everything! If any class needs changes it should be DRG in my opinion.

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Most people use DRG in all of these events. DRG excels in taking down Princess fast in CC. DRG damage is incredible on Garuda, my damage is comparable or better than BLM's. Ifrit Extreme, at least in a few strategies, at least one DRG is needed for the fight. On Darnus also, I believe DRG and MNK are viable options. I think the only one DRG are excluded from is AV, and even then I see DRG's fighting Mizer, and successfully.

Dragoon is fine.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Most people use DRG in all of these events. DRG excels in taking down Princess fast in CC. DRG damage is incredible on Garuda, my damage is comparable or better than BLM's. Ifrit Extreme, at least in a few strategies, at least one DRG is needed for the fight. On Darnus also, I believe DRG and MNK are viable options. I think the only one DRG are excluded from is AV, and even then I see DRG's fighting Mizer, and successfully.

Dragoon is fine.

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Hmm upon further pondering I guess you're right. I just see DRG as the least used class in current endgame content. However I must say that monk and dragoon are in no way broken.

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Originally Posted by OctaviusEvergreen

Hmm upon further pondering I guess you're right. I just see DRG as the least used class in current endgame content. However I must say that monk and dragoon are in no way broken.

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That's because most people are: "BLM/BRD/WAR SETUP ONLY!" -- This is why you see it as the least used class despite the fact DRG alone is probably the only other melee DD that can attack Ifrit outside of seer range (Just for example of a fight people stack THM/BLM on.) DRGs have no trouble taking down even 2 nails solo in Ifrit Hard.

Ever since SE got rid of low acc penalty on important WS, DRG only improved even more. So the issue, as always, is the playerbase and not so much the job.

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

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Ever since SE got rid of low acc penalty on important WS, DRG only improved even more. So the issue, as always, is the playerbase and not so much the job.

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True that, I agree 100%! It's those (lazy, short~cut playing, cookie~cutting)WoW player jumping into here standardizing party set up and calling it.