Some of the Paladin changes I'll like to see in 8.0..

Give Paladins a Raise! We're Holy Knights.. we should be able to raise people..

Remove Total Eclipse and Prominence. I never liked them. I always thought they looked dumb and replace them with Shield Lob (Shield bounce off each mob) and Shield Smite.

And give us back Rage of Halone! Thats move is amazing.
Royal Authority looks stupid and feels weak.

When Your Holy spirit /Holy Circle procs, They should be off GCD. So you can Cast it and still be on your rotation.

These are just some changes I would LOVE to see.

Everyone has a raise now with Phoenix Downs. Having them in battle would really unbalance raid content even more given how much easier it is for tanks to survive over other roles. It would literally become a strat for tanks to survive a mech > rez healer > healer LB3.

Total Eclipse and Prominence were given to us because we had no AoE originally, except for Circle of Scorn. We actually had no AoE attack GCD at all. I don't think they look dumb, but they obviously just kinda copied Samurai's AoE which did a similar thing. And honestly, it made sense to sweep in a circle when we want to produce a circle AoE.

Replacing it with Shield Lob makes no sense to me. Shield Lob looks far more dumb than Total Eclipse does. Shields aren't boomerangs. I feel like I've heard this being a feature in WoW, so I think you're just wanting WoW.

It would be quite nice, honestly, if Shield Lob flat out was replaced with an instant cast version of Holy Spirit, or if Shield Lob procced it. Maybe a bit less damage, since it would have no cast, but there are just mechanics where you absolutely can't stop for a moment or you'll get clipped and that can push you into Shield Lob over Holy Spirit if your burst isn't up.

I've never thought of Royal Authority as weak. It just felt better when it combo'd the way it was designed, which I think was off Savage Blade. Same with Rage of Halone - it felt better when it combo'd off Savage Blade. And likewise, Goring Blade was designed to feel good when comboing off Riot Blade. It did make more sense all the DPS combos going off Riot Blade from a functional standpoint though, because it made it less confusing, but the reason they might "look" weak is because what preceded them affects if they make sense or look good.

My pal Miguel85NYC, have you not mentioned over the many years here and all social media that you were on the verge of quitting FFXIV, so I don't see how even if SE did PLD revamp in 8.0 that it would even matter to you :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Everyone has a raise now with Phoenix Downs. Having them in battle would really unbalance raid content even more given how much easier it is for tanks to survive over other roles. It would literally become a strat for tanks to survive a mech > rez healer > healer LB3.

Total Eclipse and Prominence were given to us because we had no AoE originally, except for Circle of Scorn. We actually had no AoE attack GCD at all. I don't think they look dumb, but they obviously just kinda copied Samurai's AoE which did a similar thing. And honestly, it made sense to sweep in a circle when we want to produce a circle AoE.

Replacing it with Shield Lob makes no sense to me. Shield Lob looks far more dumb than Total Eclipse does. Shields aren't boomerangs. I feel like I've heard this being a feature in WoW, so I think you're just wanting WoW.

It would be quite nice, honestly, if Shield Lob flat out was replaced with an instant cast version of Holy Spirit, or if Shield Lob procced it. Maybe a bit less damage, since it would have no cast, but there are just mechanics where you absolutely can't stop for a moment or you'll get clipped and that can push you into Shield Lob over Holy Spirit if your burst isn't up.

I've never thought of Royal Authority as weak. It just felt better when it combo'd the way it was designed, which I think was off Savage Blade. Same with Rage of Halone - it felt better when it combo'd off Savage Blade. And likewise, Goring Blade was designed to feel good when comboing off Riot Blade. It did make more sense all the DPS combos going off Riot Blade from a functional standpoint though, because it made it less confusing, but the reason they might "look" weak is because what preceded them affects if they make sense or look good.

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Im guessing you never heard of Captain America.. And Shield Lop will never be replaced. We need more SHELD attacks. and Making it a AOE would be awesome

A raise effect should be nowhere near the same post code as a Tank's kit...

We did have Raise... once.... years ago (up til Stormblood) - when the old cross-class abilities were available and thus we could crossclass CNJ abilities, hence Raise was available for use by PLD. Few players bothered though as it couldn't be cast by PLD in battle and thus was considered a wasted slot on a PLD's hotbar (due to CNJ/WHM having a class trait that allowed that very thing), and hence when role abilities replaced the crossclass system, Raise was not included.

I did used to have it on my hotbar though as it was useful for raising someone KO'd on the fly that I came across out in the field (rare but it does happen)... but it's not that much harder to simply switch classes to CNJ/WHM and Swiftcast/Raise them anyway. And with Phoenix Downs now being altered and made more useful, I don't see SE changing this.

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Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

A raise effect should be nowhere near the same post code as a Tank's kit...

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It shouldn't be in a DPS kit either really but we have summoner and red mage.

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Originally Posted by NightHour

It shouldn't be in a DPS kit either really but we have summoner and red mage.

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Tanks with a rez would be significantly more damaging to the game than Verraise is, look at Jeeqbit's brief description above.

I don't mind Jobs gaining stuff for flavor, it's literally what Verraise and Vercure are, but PLD already has a White Magic flavor with Clemency, and it is extremely scarce for Paladin/Knight to ever get raise in any FF, the only instance I can think of is Cecil getting it in the 3D remake of FFIV, he didn't have it in any other version.

I'll agree with Tanks getting a raise, if they lose their ability to heal others and it has the full 8s cast.

Se please never listen to this dude

You simply cannot balance a tank with a raise ESPECIALLY the one that after raising can then protect 100% of the damage of the raised person

Tank invulns, then raises a healer and covers them while the healer LB3’s would become an instantly game warping strat, and that’s just LB3 cheesing, tank rezzing would allow far too much zombiying

About the only consolation I’d give is if PLD was given the eureka action sacrifice. If PLD had sacrifice (with a 3 second latency to prevent rezz cheesing) that I could see as being thematic without being unbalanced

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

You simply cannot balance a tank with a raise ESPECIALLY the one that after raising can then protect 100% of the damage of the raised person

Tank invulns, then raises a healer and covers them while the healer LB3’s would become an instantly game warping strat, and that’s just LB3 cheesing, tank rezzing would allow far too much zombiying

About the only consolation I’d give is if PLD was given the eureka action sacrifice. If PLD had sacrifice (with a 3 second latency to prevent rezz cheesing) that I could see as being thematic without being unbalanced

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My idea on how to balance it, starting to cast their raise removes all mits and invulns, except tank LB. It's an 8s cast and have to hardcast it, losing about 4.5 GCDs.

I am learning Paladin still so I can't really comment much. But I agree it having raise would be nice addition.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

You simply cannot balance a tank with a raise ESPECIALLY the one that after raising can then protect 100% of the damage of the raised person

Tank invulns, then raises a healer and covers them while the healer LB3’s would become an instantly game warping strat, and that’s just LB3 cheesing, tank rezzing would allow far too much zombiying

About the only consolation I’d give is if PLD was given the eureka action sacrifice. If PLD had sacrifice (with a 3 second latency to prevent rezz cheesing) that I could see as being thematic without being unbalanced

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You do know that cover doesn't actually cover against everything? You also know that you can die while covering someone even if you have invulnerability on? There's plenty of spells in this game that go beyond cover and won't save that person + their damage gets to you as well and you die even if you had invul up. It's crazy and devs know this so they would implement that cover only works for some things. Check Hade's Elegy and do cover on someone who has a yellow stack + damage stack on them. You'll both die no matter what.

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

I am learning Paladin still so I can't really comment much. But I agree it having raise would be nice addition.

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You already have phoenix down, do we need more? Let them make it usable anywhere then or just by certain classes idk. What we need is that tanks get bigger dps, different defensive cooldowns from others and make them not look the same... Only a few things distinguish tanks these days.

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Originally Posted by MayuAmakura

You do know that cover doesn't actually cover against everything? You also know that you can die while covering someone even if you have invulnerability on? There's plenty of spells in this game that go beyond cover and won't save that person + their damage gets to you as well and you die even if you had invul up. It's crazy and devs know this so they would implement that cover only works for some things. Check Hade's Elegy and do cover on someone who has a yellow stack + damage stack on them. You'll both die no matter what.

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Cover works on enough things to be a major concern when you pair it with the ability to rezz

I think a Paladin raise would be cool from a lore/‘job-fantasy’ perspective, but it wouldn’t really be ‘balance-able’ from a gameplay perspective sadly. Maybe like if it was only usable during Requiescat with an unremoveable cast time of 8s and immediately dumped all of your MP thus locking you out of the main portion of your burst damage. But at that point there wouldn’t be much point in it existing anyway lol, so maybe best just go without.

Plus doesn’t Paladin / Knight usually have access to some white magics but not higher-level ones like Raise or Curaga? Having them in XIV with direct healing abilities but not like Raise/Esuna/Regen seems mostly in-keeping with how the class usually appear, I think.

...I actually miss when Paladin had Raise.

It was a cross-class skill with Conjurer, as that was the required sub-job to unlock Paladin, and we absolutely used it in the wild. It was a lost ability when Stormblood revamped jobs and removed cross-classing skills and replaced it with the current, and admittedly better, role skills.

Access to Cure was replaced with Clemency, and Protect was just deleted from the game entirely.

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Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

Tanks with a rez would be significantly more damaging to the game than Verraise is, look at Jeeqbit's brief description above.

I don't mind Jobs gaining stuff for flavor, it's literally what Verraise and Vercure are, but PLD already has a White Magic flavor with Clemency, and it is extremely scarce for Paladin/Knight to ever get raise in any FF, the only instance I can think of is Cecil getting it in the 3D remake of FFIV, he didn't have it in any other version.

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It would fit in line with warriors godly levels of self healing.

Just fix Boring Blade and Circle of Scorn. Two absolutely awful moves. Remove Shield Bash, and give cover either 50 gauge cost or a cooldown not both. Remove Clemency too. Pointless buttons just need purged.

The only way PLD gets Raise back is if it is like the old Raise and only out of combat and that's pointless. Personally all combat raises should be gone. Even healer raises should be on a large cooldown. 'If he dies, he dies'

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Originally Posted by Asako

Pointless buttons just need purged.

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Oh I could not possibly disagree with this more, if anything I think Jobs need more pointless buttons, things that aren't important or are so absurdly niche that they rarely get used, but it is still a funny thing the Job can do by applying its skills, it's a great way to add flavor to the Jobs, and we need more of that, not less.

I think there needs to be a middle ground, pointless flavour buttons should be encouraged and present but it has to come with pruning of overbloated “this button’s purpose is to do damage/heal” first to make room for flavour

PLD is probably the job already closest to this but nowhere near enough

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I think there needs to be a middle ground, pointless flavour buttons should be encouraged and present but it has to come with pruning of overbloated “this button’s purpose is to do damage/heal” first to make room for flavour

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This is true but the poster in question was talking about Shield Bash and Clemency, two buttons a PLD could not even have in their hotbar and still be an excellent player, Clemency does have niche uses, but it is very much a button that ideally the PLD would never use, so I think it is fair to consider it in that category.

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Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

This is true but the poster in question was talking about Shield Bash and Clemency, two buttons a PLD could not even have in their hotbar and still be an excellent player, Clemency does have niche uses, but it is very much a button that ideally the PLD would never use, so I think it is fair to consider it in that category.

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My issue with Clemency and Shield bash is we already have better alternatives as buttons. We already have an OGCD stun and an OCGD Regen. I'll happily take more Job flavoured buttons if they had reasonable use. You're never going to use Shield Bash, and you really really should not be using Clemency either.

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Originally Posted by Asako

My issue with Clemency and Shield bash is we already have better alternatives as buttons. We already have an OGCD stun and an OCGD Regen. I'll happily take more Job flavoured buttons if they had reasonable use. You're never going to use Shield Bash, and you really really should not be using Clemency either.

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Shield bash is an absolute god send in deep dungeons as an example and clemency is a better flavour option for PLD white magic than passive healing on the unlimited blade works combo

I actively want more shield bashes not less

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Originally Posted by Asako

My issue with Clemency and Shield bash is we already have better alternatives as buttons. We already have an OGCD stun and an OCGD Regen. I'll happily take more Job flavoured buttons if they had reasonable use. You're never going to use Shield Bash, and you really really should not be using Clemency either.

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Shield Bash is kind of a sidegrade as is on the GCD but doesn't have a separate cooldown, while Low Blow is oGCD has it's 25s CD.

The Regen on Holy Sheltron and Intervention should just be removed.

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Originally Posted by Asako

Remove Shield Bash... Remove Clemency too. Pointless buttons just need purged.

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Clemency is far from a pointless button in any content capable of the slightest step out of rigidity, and Shield Bash does no harm to you in that PLD isn't in any way tuned around its presence and, if you have no use for it, you could just not bother putting it (or Clemency, for that matter) on your bar.

"Boring Blade" and Circle of Scorn (and/or Spirits Within+) could use rehauls or replacement, sure, but... why remove situationally interesting skills for those who do content that'd actually use them?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Clemency is far from a pointless button in any content capable of the slightest step out of rigidity

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In casual content you don't want to use Clemency either. For 99.999% of the time, using Clemency is taking over for healers, and creates a net negative compared to letting the healer do their thing.

That is exactly why Clemency isn't a problematic ability. It's never useful, until you get to a point where any optimizations are out of the window anyway.

Again, my issue is more with these moves being not really useful, I do in fact not have either of them on my hotbar. I'd just rather the devs came up with more interesting ways to fill out the role.

Honestly I still wished they just gave us GLA Jobstones [and Jobstones for all the OG Classes] so we could play a different style of the same Tank. It's never gonna happen but it would have been nice to have variations of the same jobs. Archer and Bard are in the same boat. I'd love a more Ranger style of play instead of the music aspect of Ranged DPS. Topic for a different time.

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Originally Posted by aiqa

In casual content you don't want to use Clemency either. For 99.999% of the time, using Clemency is taking over for healers, and creates a net negative compared to letting the healer do their thing.

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I never said anything about it being optimal, only situationally useful, which is reason enough to retain the skill, even if others may happily drop it from their bars. The latter group needn't necessitate the skill's complete removal.

I only ever see Clemency pop during Trusts (G'raha is programmed to panic button it at you at certain HP thresholds) and actual emergencies where it's needed. It falls in the same category as SMN and RDM having Raise; great utility you hope you never need.

This is just one of those things that we are all going to have a different opinion on which is fair. At least we all agree that we should have more stuff to press providing it's actually relevant to the job and not useless.

I do miss the old days when we could cross class certain skills from other jobs. Keen Flurry, Featherfoot, Bloodbath, Mercy Stroke. Absolute filler buttons but for Tanks were absolutely handy for fluff damage. I'd prefer to have things like these in exchange for the large healing we do ourselves. More mitigation than healing. Leave Warrior as the big Self healing Tank as it's always been.

I'd also just put Shelltron on a cooldown and remove the PLD gauge. This would seperate it from the similarity of DRK. Then have DRK have Darkside buff removed and base most of their CD's on their MP like TBN to make it more thematic [ideally you would use HP but would be terrible to balance gameplay wise.] Currently Darkside Buff is pointless and might as well not exist, it's never falling off. Make the job more reliant on MP management like the old days, I miss the old Dark Side toggling to manage MP.

As for GBN, I refuse to play it as it's not my style so I don't know what people would want for it.

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Originally Posted by Asako

As for GBN, I refuse to play it as it's not my style so I don't know what people would want for it.

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GNB at 100 has like 7 combo chains to go through with the bullet gauge and much of it doesn't cleanly flow together.

I really like the aesthetic and it playing more like 3 DPS in a trenchcoat than a tank, but it's now overloaded with so many DPS skills that more often feel like bloated filler instead of a build-up of new skills to weave in. I don't actually feel stronger at level 100 on most jobs I used to adore, and that's a problem with lots of jobs now.

The devs are just kind of running out of ways to continue fleshing out older jobs, and so it's either the same but with more flash or a rotation twice the length but also with more flash.

I really like your suggestions for DRK, especially. I would just make Darkside into a buff, maybe in line to how MCH Overheated gives 5 stacks to hit as hard as you can in a short burst phase. Give it a little flavor.