Couldnt we possibly in any way allow people to clear savage in trusts?

I know this opinion isnt popular nor probably even relatable to most, but for someone like myself, i began raiding with a casual static and came to the point in my life where im working to do things i havent dome before in real life at all - like being free from working for someone else, seeing the world, and using my time to help people in a meaningful way. I am closer to achieving this goal with every passing day, but for now, because i am employed, i work from sunrise to sunset and usually only have just a few hours to myself each night unless i skip out on sleep and many many things i absolutely need to do in real life. Lately, i have been doing such a thing in party finder, because i do not have time to commit to a static, nor do i want to, so im just trying to get this tier over as fast as i can. Why do i even bother? Because i enjoy helping others raid, whether its joining a static vc or joining a pf group and helping others have fun playing the game. That is where i find joy, becsuse i always emd up in a spot where im.leading or doing callouts in raid situations anyway, because i learn really fast.

As of late, ive been suffering in pf so much that after being 1.58% enrage on m11s monday night and being 0.07% phase one m12s last night, im beginning to daydream and fall asleep while raiding. I took a day off wednesday, and yesterday, i was in m12, and spent the entire evening skipping dinner and staying up past midnight because this group i was in hit the 0.07% without potions and wanted to get a clean pull to clear phase one. That never happened, and besides that, i was so tired that on the second and latest closest pull of the night, i was the one memeing, becaue i was so tired by thia point that i died by getting my toe clipped from a bad camera angle and got a damage down from having a keyboard slip issue that "lagged" me a fraction of a second while dropping aoes in the intercardinal-safe pattern on act 3. I went to bed, cried in my pillow for a second, woke up and found out my aloe vera plants got frozen overnight, because i didnt know it was going to freeze last night (i live where it doesnt regularly freeze in winter) and the group finally cleared phase one without me with a tank that did tremendously less damage than i did. Seeing that felt like a kick in the groin, so what im.asking is,

can there please be savage raids for people like myself who can just get on, learn the fight, do the fight, and win, and not have to spend untold amounts of time and gil wiping, when for example, it took 598 pulls for me to clear m8s, when i truly should have cleared in 10% or less of that time, because in my first 300 pulls, i only wiped the raid 5 times, and later, i went in as a dps for the first time on two jobs and never memed. Got my first gold parse, two pinks, and two oranges in four weeks in random pf groups.meant for clearing and not parsing, so im.saying all of this to say that clearing this fast is important to me (which is why im not inna static) so i can free up my time for my personal pursuits and to allow me to choose when to come back and play and spend time with other players that i know as well as randoms in party finder whenever i am in the mood and able to be of help or want to just simply enjoy it for what it is.



Tl:dr i am clearing just so i dont have to raid on a schedule and can choose when to play

This pretty much links up to when a practice mode of sorts gets asked for, I do think, given to how much of a nightmare pf is, that some kind of way for people to get better needs to exist other than throwing self against the wall over and over. It's obviously needed.
I'd be up for this existing if it was zero achievement, zero progression (other than being able to do the next one), zero gear.

Then maybe the PF experience would be better.

I wasn't going to answer because I can't tell if this is bait, memeing or a legitimate request, but I will assume the latter.
I highly doubt they will ever add Trusts, because Savage is not MSQ content. However...

If you are as good as you say, the only solution I can think about is to, in preparation for a Savage tier, clear your schedule for as many days as you can muster, then get into one of those hardcore statics that try to get the tier done in like a week or something.

One that just so happens to have a schedule that doesn't get in the way of anything you have going on already, that is convenient to you, with people you like or play to your liking, etc. gets harder to find the more prerequisites you have, so if you can get your schedule in order to fit into a static that has what you're looking for, it may be worth it.

Even if you disregard everything said and still want Trusts for Savage, consider this: Trusts are extremely stupid. They had to lobotomize lots of dungeons just so Trusts wouldn't eat dirt or get stuck somewhere immediately, so you can expect the devs to also lobotomize Savage if they were to add Trusts to it... and no one wants that.

Anyway. I hope you can find a group that works for you, or that your PFs fill quickly at least lol we're all busy people with lives, but each player chooses how to manage their time and make space for what truly matters to them.

If there's an audience for it, definitely.

I wouldn't strip achievement, but rather have 2 distinct achievements... One for clearing under 'trusts', and another for clearing with a party of players.

Considering plenty of the fights need to assign spots, they would need to raise a whole different structure where you can assign your spot for the fight and have the rest of the NPCs adapt. Not only that, having Savage be clearable or farmable solo would require the NPCs know the fight flawlessly and do the DPS that is required of them. If they make it so, what incentive would there be for PF or Static raid groups?

But, above all, I would rather not have the Multiplayer in MMO be more and more eroded to the point that the only place with human players is Limsa. If you're frustrated over having to clear the optional challenges with people, you should probably consider moving to single player games, which are bound to offer a much better experience, overall.

This is probably bait, but...

I think anything above MSQ-tier fights might be too much for the Trust system, otherwise they wouldn't have neutered all those old dungeons.

Also, isn't this an MMO? Why does everything need to be accomplishable in single player? Are you sure this is the right genre for you? I get the struggle of being employed, but like, come on.

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

Considering plenty of the fights need to assign spots, they would need to raise a whole different structure where you can assign your spot for the fight and have the rest of the NPCs adapt. Not only that, having Savage be clearable or farmable solo would require the NPCs know the fight flawlessly and do the DPS that is required of them. If they make it so, what incentive would there be for PF or Static raid groups?

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Which also brings up the problem of trusts affecting the content they are implemented in again (usually not in a good way). The trusts would not just have to adapt to your chosen position but also to any kind of variation within savage mechanics, be that random debuff assignments or the usual support/dps split on who has to do what first.

So what is likely to happen, since we've seen it before, is that any "randomness" would get removed to make it simpler for trusts to execute. Much easier to program when you only have to account for a single pattern.

There's no way this ain't bait

I feel it would be more sensible to make a step between Normal and Savage, for at least the first 3 fights of the Tier... Gotta leave that 4th fight's second phase to Savage... There the bosses health and damage should be somewhere between the two, have the Savage Enrage timers and the Savage mechanics.

And if rewards are needed, you can have tokens that can be used to upgrade the normal raid gear by 5 ilvls so they don't replace tomestone gear, and can also unlock them for dyes.

I have long been advocate for something similar, a "practice mode" that is designed to always fail and let you practice the fight to your heart's content, the idea that Trusts couldn't possibly handle it is genuinely stupid, bots don't have to play by the same rules as the player, and there is quite a few instances where they already don't, a very visible example is Dohn Mheg tightrope segment, where various characters will do it differently, Ali Alp and Y'shtola will do it normally, Thancred leaps across, and Urianger teleports across, with that in mind, I don't see why similar concessions couldn't be made for the Trust system in higher difficulty fights, from making them move arbitrarily faster as they need to, to outright ignoring certain aspects of mechanics as needed.

Maybe you should accept not everything is made for you.

I hate party finder players as much as the next guy, but this is an MMO.

Cross-DC parties would solve many of these problems.

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Originally Posted by Noviside

Maybe you should accept not everything is made for you.

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Not once did i make a demand or ask anyone to change anything that they are doing. I just simply said "can we...?" And opened a forum for discussion on this topic where ideas and disagreements can be discussed. Yes or no. Commenting about me and making assumptions about myself is vitriolic and has no place in this forum or in society. Ive ignored a lot of baseless comments until i'd seen yours. You and everyone else that hit "like" represent the bottom 70% of the unfortunately overwhelming population of internet dwellers that have been online since its inception lashing out at people unprovoked. Provide substance of "good idea" or "bad idea" and grow up or just keep running into conflict until one day maybe you learn better.

Not one time.did i ever believe anything was ever made for me. I worked hard and earned everything i got, and on this mmo, i will continue to keep playing. If my ideas offend you, deal with it. Maybe nobody like the idea, but i came in here expecting that was very likely a real possibility. Life moves on.

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Originally Posted by b3nzyme

Not once did i make a demand or ask anyone to change anything that they are doing. I just simply said "can we...?" And opened a forum for discussion on this topic where ideas and disagreements can be discussed. Yes or no. Commenting about me and making assumptions about myself is vitriolic and has no place in this forum or in society. Ive ignored a lot of baseless comments until i'd seen yours. You and everyone else that hit "like" represent the bottom 70% of the unfortunately overwhelming population of internet dwellers that have been online since its inception lashing out at people unprovoked. Provide substance of "good idea" or "bad idea" and grow up or forever dont belong.

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great bait man this is the best thread in along time

This is a good idea tbh. PF is full of lobotomites who struggle with even the easiest savages thus wasting hours of your day.

If it isn't bait, no. I'm 100% pro-Trusts in all MSQ content. The moment it steps outside MSQ, forcing multiplayer in this online game is a reasonable ask. Most standard mode content (such as base difficulty raids) is still easy enough that even scrub players like myself can complete them, and I even play a job that's rather easy and forgiving so that I can more easily learn fights.

This is a Final Fantasy title, first, but it's an MMO. Play with other people. If they're terrible, leave. You don't have to stay in bad groups.

They 100% could, it has nothing to do with not being able to code the npc's to handle a savage fight. (They could also be infinitely better in dungeons but they choose otherwise) SE simply wants to create the illusion that these fights are something special / not give you that option or PF would be dead. The only reason's it seems so active is because a good majority of raiders are dumpster fire so hours upon hours of your time are wasted due to PF walls. The irony of it all is that most do it to attain BIS in a game with the most pointless gearing system of any MMO I have played to date. The entire tier can be cleared without it and once you have it - it simply makes that tier easier; there is nothing else to utilize the upgrade(s). By the time something higher comes along there is a new set of gear the tops raid drops, rinse / repeat. So they lock you out after 1 clear for weekly's simply to keep people coming back. I play 14 practically daily but will be the first to admit that it's high end content (how it's handled / outcome) means next to nothing) and is absolute remedial cringe.

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Originally Posted by CrrmsnKanashii

They 100% could, it has nothing to do with not being able to code the npc's to handle a savage fight. (They could also be infinitely better in dungeons but they choose otherwise) SE simply wants to create the illusion that these fights are something special / not give you that option or PF would be dead. The only reason's it seems so active is because a good majority of raiders are dumpster fire so hours upon hours of your time are wasted due to PF walls. The irony of it all is that most do it to attain BIS in a game with the most pointless gearing system of any MMO I have played to date. The entire tier can be cleared without it and once you have it - it simply makes that tier easier; there is nothing else to utilize the upgrade(s). By the time something higher comes along there is a new set of gear the tops raid drops, rinse / repeat. So they lock you out after 1 clear for weekly's simply to keep people coming back. I play 14 practically daily but will be the first to admit that it's high end content (how it's handled / outcome) means next to nothing) and is absolute remedial cringe.

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I think i like your comment the best. I sort of disagree with saying the way they handle high end content is cringe, because it probably is from some players points of views, but i believe it is a healthy mix, which is why i enjoyed being with a casual static for years. The content basically enables people to engage with one another and have fun. However, besides what i stated before about not having enough time in game, ive also got this burning desire to bring into the open and in peoples faces the naked truth of what it is, which is basically the same as how you put it... it is not hard. It is meant to be an mmo, so i'd always wished people would just let players have fun and stop the culture of believing the content is so hard and that there is a top level tier of play. No, there is a top tier level of illusioned ego. I cant tell you how many times i raided late in the tier with my casual static only to have people talk down on us or myself, as if just about anyone able-bodied is capable of clearing this all quickly if they wanted to or chose different circumstances. Putting the naked truth out there helps squash the elitism, but im not sure how to change peoples mindsets. I had ideas about in game parsers before everyone talked about it today and many other ideas, but somehow, someway, some, if not all, of the elitist gamers out there need to be brought down to earth so players can enjoy their game hassle-free and with unbridled freedom and hope for tomorrow's community, and it just wont happen when people dont realize what the game was meant for in the first place. I constantly had people interject my conversations not involving them with conversations about how their group was "better". Literally both groups had a choice, and im an outlier that proves that i can just change my direction and change my outcome. Anybody can do it, so please, people. Stop the elitism. Theres nothing you can do (and especially on this game) that i cant or someone else cant also do. /soapbox

man's got door to enrage and they like "can we do this in trusts instead... i'd rather play with npcs" lol

I think the old content was neutered, not because they were too complicated for trusts, but because they (the dungeons) simply ceased to fit into their current design philosophy.

Another "I don't want to play with other ppl in my MMO!"

Real question: Why are you guys not just playing single player titles if you are so opposed to having to interact with and consider other people? You would have A LOT more choices of games to play, let us have our mmo

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Originally Posted by ...

Another "I don't want to play with other ppl in my MMO!"

Real question: Why are you guys not just playing single player titles if you are so opposed to having to interact with and consider other people? You would have A LOT more choices of games to play, let us have our mmo

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This is an incredibly neutered MMO, even if you entirely subtracted the push for solo content. Most people don't even bother interacting with people outside of Discord, Reddit, Forums, etc., and when they do it's usually "hi first time", "tyfp".... A lot of people simply aren't interested in the whole 'interact and consider other people', and just basically use it as a glorified content simulator

Sorry but entirely optional solo content is one of the lowest issues as far as non-conducive MMO design goes.

I think it would be nice to be able to practice Savage and EXs with a trust, but to clear it, you still need other players. This way you can learn tricky mechanics at your own pace and come in better prepared.

this is honestly one of the best suggestions i have seen since the 1.0 forum days. trusts are so superior to your random PF pug so.. yes. this is actually, genuinely a GREAT idea. yoshi-p hire this man

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Originally Posted by Bryson

man's got door to enrage and they like "can we do this in trusts instead... i'd rather play with npcs" lol

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http://ibb.co/TBN3MGxF

https://ibb.co/TBN3MGxF

Lol facts

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

I think the old content was neutered, not because they were too complicated for trusts, but because they (the dungeons) simply ceased to fit into their current design philosophy.

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they even said (yoshi) the dev team had a difficult time trying to get the trust system to work in endwalker with the 8 man trail and that was just normal. The old content was neutered because tis beyond what they can do in terms of the trust.

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

I think it would be nice to be able to practice Savage and EXs with a trust, but to clear it, you still need other players. This way you can learn tricky mechanics at your own pace and come in better prepared.

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Pretty much this.

A variant of hardcore content fights where NPCs serve as teachers ala Halls of the Novice where you get graded on your ability to potentially clear the ACTUAL fight with people isn't a bad idea, and would serve as a better in-game benchmark than whatever parsers or criteria people use because the game its self can conform "yep, this guy's got the mechanics down and their numbers are good".

The fact that all fights are all rote memorization and on a "schedule" makes it even easier for the NPC training system to access and point out trouble spots, as opposed to human players who would just scream and kick because they're not there to teach and they certainly don't want to wait for someone in the group to catch up. It still places a real clear in the hands of needing other people, but at least attempts would go more smoothly. They could even make clearing the training a hard requirement of being able to join PFs. No stamp of approval, no getting to tag along, because if even the NPCs don't think you can do it, why would anyone else?

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Originally Posted by b3nzyme

I know this opinion isnt popular

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It's more popular than you think. A lot of people are afraid to raid and it's an extremely common anxiety. Among those who do raid, they have to put up with Party Finder that will always have someone that can't do mechanics prior to the prog point, or a static with a person that holds them back.

Clearing Savage with NPCs would in effect be similar to using a raid simulator, which is especially common for Ultimate raids. One of those simulators now has bots to practice with. At a certain point, SE may as well just support the concept of practicing with NPCs themselves.

What would help a lot is if we could all just practice with NPCs and assign them to certain spots or to perform certain actions in the Strategy Board for each cast. Then people can become flawless at mechanics and then clear with players when they won't hold everyone back.

I do think that clearing it with NPCs should give no rewards, and that actual achievements and rewards should require clearing it with players. It will just mean that when people do it with players they won't waste everyone's time dying to things, and that will make the game respect people's time.

There is already a proof of concept of this: Final Verse. When I got to the end of the new deep dungeon, we all immediately wiped to Final Verse. It allowed me to practice it solo. I died instantly for a good 20 or so pulls. After enough practice, I was able to solo the fight, but didn't get any real reward for doing so. I went through the deep dungeon again and this time we cleared Final Verse so I could get the deep dungeon achievements. I even was able to solo it when parties wiped to it.

That's what happens when you give players a way to practice that doesn't waste other people's time. You get players that can actually hold the fight together instead of coming in and immediately wiping to everything.

I genuinely think mmos should have their own way to be played without other people as a longetivity meassure like gw1 but xiv is in the odd place where savage and ultimates are the compromise of serious content in this game since all normal content is basically built like a tutorial and giving the only semblance of serious content in this game more reasons to not be taken seriously would probably make people riot (Contrary to popular belief, raiders are the loudest complainers in this game. All balance changes are completely made for 8 man raids and all other content is an afterthought in terms of balancing to appease them).

I still think we would benefit from ways to give fights logentivity (see, unreal) but this is a complicated issue I dont think trusts would fix without a cost to pay.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

That's what happens when you give players a way to practice that doesn't waste other people's time. You get players that can actually hold the fight together instead of coming in and immediately wiping to everything.

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This is why I love trusts being added to dungeons. Especially after the 2nd boss in Meso Terminal. Run it enough time with the trusts, learning the muscle memory to do it without being a drag on people who just want to get in and get out.

When I was a sprout and seen the Stone, Sea, and Sky at first glance I was like "Awesome! I can practice mechanics before even considering going into raids." I was PLD back then but to say I was disappointed when all it is is a goshdarn target dummy with zero mechanics would be a massive understatement. That and coming from WoW with stuff like DBM or BigWigs with callouts to let you know mechanic X was coming and how to handle to nothing, I didn't do any content until I seriously overgeared it (talking Alexander and Mhach raids until full level 70 tomestone gear) or MSQ dragged me into it.

Having trusts to practice Extreme or Savage content would seriously consider me to actually give it a try. You can watch a video until your eyes fall out. You can read a guide until everything is a blur. But for some people, doing is the best practice. And I know there's PF's that would be patient with sublevel skilled players like myself, but having trusts to practice with first before applying would be a godsend. I've mentioned in another thread how I could be n a party of pure saints but I personally would feel horrrible holding back a group with my derping.

Of course, that would require Squeenix to make trusts have more than 5 brain cells. Shame Trusts aren't as smart as WoW's Followers.

YoshiP has recently stated that the formula for MMOs in general is outdated, and that they need to start thinking outside of the box to reinvent MMOs for the modern playerbase. I think this would be one of those changes that would overall be looked in a positive light by the community. Of course, there will always be raiders that are full of themselves that will scoff at the idea that anyone else could be able to do savage. Gatekeeping savage from casual players isn't the way moving forward, if you're going to have a healthy playerbase; who will pay for your raids if we all quit? Savage raids are dreadful for me personally, and I'd really enjoy it if I could just hop into savage on my own with trusts. Just give us that don't want to waste our time learning for hours upon hours a buff to survive otherwise lethal damage, and I'd be sold on it. If people wanna do it the "hard" way (it isn't hard at all, I just don't wanna waste my time on memorizing everything), then they always have that option. Us that don't want to waste our time, and just want to get the savage tier done in a couple of hours, so that we can get the mounts and dyeable glam (that shouldn't even be locked behind savage in the first place I am still upset about the axolotl for P12S), would certainly be happier that way.

i think this is an awfull idea lmao

You might get away with older content, and even so, I tend to think that this would be most useful if you are merely using it for practising fights. For contemporary or recent content, this probably should not be applied.

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Originally Posted by Miradelle

Us that don't want to waste our time, and just want to get the savage tier done in a couple of hours, so that we can get the mounts and dyeable glam ... , would certainly be happier that way.

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You're trying to hard here.

Personally I avoid anything above MSQ level, for the simple reason that I am very bad at FF14 trial/raid mechanics, and I hate to be a burden on 7 or 23 other people. I do MSQ trials once when the game forces me to, and then never again - which of course means that I will never get better, as I don't practice.
A training ground in a realistic trial/raid scenario could be helpful - but of course without titles, achievements, glams, or w/e they hand out at the end of the real thing.

I think it is a great idea and I know that might not go down well with some. I do the MSQ trial and hate it because there I am doing the story and then have to go with 7 other random players and If I am having a off day I do worry if I mess up and do not want to be a burden. I think there should be no issue adding savage and unreal to trusts it doesn't harm anyone and it would be a good way for less confident players to learn.

I did all my raiding a long time ago and do prefer to solo/duo and trusts/duty support since a lot of my friends have moved on and I am not harming anyone.

I think I should be able to get the titles and the gear it does not affect the ones who want to go in and do it with other players if I choose to use the NPC version. Some players do not have the time to go into a static or time to farm so I am hoping when Yoshi says things are changing that it includes this type of content.

I am for this in old content and would actually attempt the content if this was added as standard raids are about as difficult as I go for content as know I would be hindering other players if attempted savage content. I completely understand why this is not a good idea for the newest savage content and groups that do this content.

as i spent more hours in PF than in the ultimate i support this idea.
with limited time i could just hop in do what i feel doing and move on.

without it after a short while its just a PF long queue for stuff you want to do.

I understand the frustration of not having the time to clear Savage in PF, because it's also why I stopped trying as well.

I mean, I COULD make time to do it, if I really wanted to, but the choice I made was that with the precious few hours I have in the evening after working and taking care of myself, my health, and my spouse, I'd rather do something relaxing instead of bashing my head against a brick wall.

It was an active decision. Savage isn't for me any more. And that's okay!

I don't need them to make it clearable with trusts.