FF14 is a disappointment

Hello, I just returned after a 4 year break from FF14.

I will get straight to the point.

My issues with FF14:



-Disconnecting 2+ times a day every day.

-MMORPG That is neither a MMO or RPG.
(It is a online visual novel.)

-Forums are not used for feedback.
(it is used as social media. The FF14 team doesn't even read and reply on these forums anymore. They used to once genuinely care.)

-Constant job changes/balancing
(Makes developers seem directionless and mismanaged, while constantly wasting development resources and time. It also wastes player time, everytime they have to change their hotbars and "relearn" the job.)

-Poor development planning via "stat squish"
(instead of implementing damage caps such as 99,999 or 999,9999, or even simply planning ahead.)

-Poor priority management.
(Doing constant job updates instead of improving new player sign up process, improving login times, improving "patch notes" layout for ease of reading, improving login screen to "save" player choices for title screen, improving the UI to add more options to turn off all the "forced" accessibility featuers, etc etc.)
(Or quite literally doing a graphics update instead of fixing the infrastructure or moving the servers back to Alaksa, or even doing anything to directly address the issues that have existed since moving the servers from Alaska to California.)

-Constantly deleting gameplay features without adding anything back.
(Such as stat point allotment, TP system, pre-battle buffs, slashing/piercing resistances, etc.)





...among so many other issues.


I literally only wanted to come back to play the game to "relax" between bosses on my Elden Ring Rune Level 1 playthrough, and I was not even able to do that.

(At least I finished my rune level 1 playthrough. I have no "reason" to play FF14 anymore now anyway.)

Regardless, this game is such a disappointment to me.

Usually topics like this one are sloppy rage bait, but you do have relevant points.

I agree with all your points.

Full agree, but hey ho will they do anything about it? I doubt, /10 char.

Sure is. Like you spend long time spawning a Eureka fate and go get a drink and come back just to find it about dead.

I just want to point out though one of the issues raised is innaccurate. FFXIV's US servers originally weren't hosted in Alaska, they were hosted in Montreal Canada (in SE's now defunct Montreal division). They moved them when SE sold Crystal Dynamics and the Montreal division. So I just wanted to correct that.

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Disconnecting 2+ times a day every day.

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This is an issue. The DDoS attacks need to be solved.

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MMORPG That is neither a MMO or RPG.

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It's incorrect that it is "not an MMO". It ticks all the boxes for one.

There are massively multiplayer events, such as S ranks, hunt trains, large-scale FATE bosses, all with literally 400-600 players at them in some cases. There are large-scale PvP duties with up to 72 players. There are large scale raids with 24-48 or even over 50 people in some cases, such as Baldesion Arsenal, Delubrum Reginae and its Savage mode, CLL, Dalriada, Forked Tower, Chaotic and all alliance raids. Players organize many large-scale social events in housing areas, to the point of reaching the player cap. GATEs at the gold saucer can have countless people partipating in the jump puzzles and chatting together. Huge numbers of people (beyond player cap) have participated in the events for Cosmic Exploration and Ishgard Restoration.

There are FCs that organize events or do content together, from dungeons, to raids, to RP and social events. There are linkshells raid statics and hunting, novice networks, all which facilitate social interaction. Players often help eachother by crafting gear for eachother.

The issue is certainly not about whether it is an "MMO", because it's great at that. The issue is about whether it's good at RPG aspects, because they introduced things like stats but implemented them poorly and removed all of them leaving a single path of Crit, Determination and Direct Hit. Everything is so streamlined and efficient that you aren't made to roleplay your character in the world even close to as much as MMORPGs before it did, such as traveling places on foot or via a vehicle instead of queue/teleport.

On the other hand though, they have worked very hard to implement huge numbers of emotes for roleplayers, and released huge numbers of gear designs and house furnishings, all of which support roleplaying in the world.

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Forums are not used for feedback.

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I have to agree. There is no evidence they look at them when the issues put here are not even on Yoshi-P's radar until an interviewer asks about them, or he sees them in a YouTube video

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Constant job changes/balancing
(Makes developers seem directionless and mismanaged, while constantly wasting development resources and time. It also wastes player time, everytime they have to change their hotbars and "relearn" the job.)

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They clearly state their intentions now when they make these changes, due to popular request. The explanations and "direction" are stated in the job guide on the lodestone. All these explanations are pretty obvious to people who have been following the issues with said jobs. I agree it's annoying to relearn a job, of course, because I moved away from Paladin for an expansion after it was reworked mid-savage progression and I didn't want to also be progging my new rotation.

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-Poor development planning via "stat squish"
(instead of implementing damage caps such as 99,999 or 999,9999, or even simply planning ahead.)

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In a linear game where stats keep growing, I don't know what you mean about a "damage cap". They could have planned the stat scaling better, but I think they didn't really know if the game would even survive beyond ARR or Heavensward, because new MMOs often have initial hype then crumble into nothing. It was only by Stormblood they began to realize the game had stuck.

In fairness, in a game that can have hundreds of players attacking an enemy whose gear continually grows with each patch, the stat scaling getting big is unavoidable. Whether it needed to get quite where it is now, I'm not so sure, but the issue with it can be reaching the actual number caps that standard variables in programming languages have, and looking ridiculous to players.

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Poor priority management.

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Yes and no. Their priority is the next patch content. It is the next patch content that will make people resubscribe to the game to do the new MSQ and raids. It is the expansion patches that will draw expansion sales. So that is literally all they do. Quality of life should be the priority, I agree. But it doesn't draw them immediate, measurable revenue in the form of a spike on a chart they can show to shareholders. Therefore quality of life is ignored entirely except rare exceptions such as the abandoned graphics update, an odd sidequest dungeon revamp, and 5 or less quality of life updates out of the many thousands that we need.

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-Constantly deleting gameplay features without adding anything back.
(Such as stat point allotment, TP system, pre-battle buffs, slashing/piercing resistances, etc.)

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It has made the game too simple and streamlined. I can see why they'd do it though. Simple is good for new, casual and returning players, because MMOs are already complicated to understand due to their years of patches adding new game systems. The problem is that once those players understand the game, they then realize it's so simple that there's not much to sink their teeth into.

one could argue setting a damage cap on 9999 would be even lazier than a stat squish

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Originally Posted by Deejudanne

one could argue setting a damage cap on 9999 would be even lazier than a stat squish

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It would be very FF-like, but also it would feel terrible for progression, cuz at some point you simply wouldn't even get to see the bigger number. And yeah, the stat squish isn't perfect, but to argue against it is the same as saying they should leave problems unaddressed.

Aren’t we getting closer to old ShB numbers at this point though? Are we on for another stat squish sold as a new feature in 8.0.? Lol

The disconnecting is an issue and not fixing it before savage is an embarrassment for sure

It is an mmo and an rpg. Theres no way it isn't neither. Sorry, but youre incorrect here

Forums not used for feedback is a major issue. I did get almost all I wanted for Warrior with my War thread, however there's still room for improvement and im still unhappy that Ultimate is gated behind Savage.

Changing hotbars I can understand. I have certain skills on certain spots because I'm a controller player. I had bloodfest on my Dpad (left hand) bc its 1 button so no movement issues. Then SE puts a whole combo on it?? So unhappy with gnb changes JUST BECAUSE of movement. Pld? Same thing. Confiteor becomes a combo and holy is 1 button so now I need confiteor on the shapes (right hand) but Ive had this for years and if I want to sync down for a past ultimate i have to change it back. It shouldve just upgraded from holy spirit.

Graphics update is fine, just not doing more than that is silly. Also, sorry, but no. Why would I want it in Alaska? I live in Sacramento. Dont subscribe to your point here

Deleting game features, i also don't subscribe to wanting those back. Things were added and its also in Field Ops.

What's making me quit and want to quit is they come up with silly reasons why the game is doing poorly. Yoshida saying "its because content doesn't have enough stress". Thanks. Because that's more stress on my stress of dealing with players. Who can't do mechanics on a reclear party?? Because content "more stress". I already have ultimate for that, but i have to deal with social stress being disabled just to do what I actually want?

Why balance for people to have 3 pieces tome gear, assuming everyone is going to do that? Whats the point of letting them get it early when that's a thing but also it still takes too long to gear ONE job? Why is savage locked so long? Why is Ultimate continuously locked behind Savage, when the weapon weekly is removed?? I didn't need stress and I didn't want MORE. Not to mention the new fights? Im legitimately getting vision issues from it.

Why unlock all job locked gear but I can't wear any hairstyle? Why can't midlander men have valid makeup or even a decent half up/down??

And why is thrill of battle only 10s and has no mitigation on it at all? Defiance was 25%.

Too many devs are out of touch on a lot of things.

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Originally Posted by Siba_Lynxphur

Hello, I just returned after a 4 year break from FF14.

I will get straight to the point.

My issues with FF14:



-Disconnecting 2+ times a day every day.

-MMORPG That is neither a MMO or RPG.
(It is a online visual novel.)

-Forums are not used for feedback.
(it is used as social media. The FF14 team doesn't even read and reply on these forums anymore. They used to once genuinely care.)

-Constant job changes/balancing
(Makes developers seem directionless and mismanaged, while constantly wasting development resources and time. It also wastes player time, everytime they have to change their hotbars and "relearn" the job.)

-Poor development planning via "stat squish"
(instead of implementing damage caps such as 99,999 or 999,9999, or even simply planning ahead.)

-Poor priority management.
(Doing constant job updates instead of improving new player sign up process, improving login times, improving "patch notes" layout for ease of reading, improving login screen to "save" player choices for title screen, improving the UI to add more options to turn off all the "forced" accessibility featuers, etc etc.)
(Or quite literally doing a graphics update instead of fixing the infrastructure or moving the servers back to Alaksa, or even doing anything to directly address the issues that have existed since moving the servers from Alaska to California.)

-Constantly deleting gameplay features without adding anything back.
(Such as stat point allotment, TP system, pre-battle buffs, slashing/piercing resistances, etc.)





...among so many other issues.


I literally only wanted to come back to play the game to "relax" between bosses on my Elden Ring Rune Level 1 playthrough, and I was not even able to do that.

(At least I finished my rune level 1 playthrough. I have no "reason" to play FF14 anymore now anyway.)

Regardless, this game is such a disappointment to me.

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Only point i'm gonna hit on is damage caps
This would be a horrendous addition because jobs that have longer burst windows would be affected less, than one that has one huge hit for a skill getting needlessly reduced. E.g summoners and pictomancers versus black mages

I agree with most of these points..

-MMORPG That is neither a MMO or RPG.
True, it's a quasi visual novel and mild content simulator with some online features.. Most of the actual MMO and RPG feature set have been long-abandoned systems, or have been content features sets that are a regression over their predecessor content.. e.g., Forked Tower is a regression over DRS.

-Forums are not used for feedback.
They haven't been used for a long time, mostly it's just the typical response to say that they appreciate the feedback, but will be closing the thread as "all that can be said has been said" effectively... Which isn't really looking at feedback, as much as it is a wrist slap.

-Poor development planning via "stat squish"
IMO, they need to do a true level/stat squish on everything.. Ultimately the previous stat squish really only bided a couple of expansions (if that), to do what I assume is make back-end changes... First signs of these issues started to appear way back in late HW, early SB. I think doing a damage cap, e.g., 999,999 is a sloppy solution though.

-Poor priority management.
Agreed, though I do think the game was starting to show its age, so I don't exactly blame them for doing a graphics update, but there are many systems and processes that do need to be looked at.. It's still miserable to navigate.

-Constantly deleting gameplay features without adding anything back.
Yes, the amount of features this game has lost is absolutely absurd.. Like, TP was absolutely a bad implementation, but I do think something could have replaced it, or I think it could have been reworked at the very least.. It's funny because there are some systems that they cling to, almost as if they are afraid of admitting past failure, e.g., the specialist system.

Forgive me for being the akshtually person in the room for 5s

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Originally Posted by millktea

And why is thrill of battle only 10s and has no mitigation on it at all? Defiance was 25%.

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Originally Posted by millktea

Too many devs are out of touch on a lot of things.

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1) It was 25% total HP and healing received, not mitigation.
2) Tank defensive stances have been baked into the generic lvl1 Tank Mastery (20% mitigation)

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Originally Posted by millktea

Forums not used for feedback is a major issue. I did get almost all I wanted for Warrior with my War thread, however there's still room for improvement and im still unhappy that Ultimate is gated behind Savage.

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Well, healers got nothing they wanted for them. All 4 jobs were ignored. They even made a strike for those changes, but Yoshi-P just avoided every question about it. And healers continue being largely ignored till this day.

Phys Ranged also got nothing they wanted.

SMN also got nothing they wanted.

Not even SAM got Kaiten back.

So, can we say that WAR is the privileged job out there?

played during that whole strike and i didnt notice the strike itself meanwhile forums were on fire, interesting how that works

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Originally Posted by miraidensetsu

Well, healers got nothing they wanted for them. All 4 jobs were ignored. They even made a strike for those changes, but Yoshi-P just avoided every question about it. And healers continue being largely ignored till this day.

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We are unneeded and unwanted in modern content, it wouldn’t surprise me if healers were “reworked” into something else entirely as they won’t remove jobs.

I wanted to address the points with my own thoughts but I mostly agree. Because clearly everyone wants to know what I think.

-Disconnecting 2+ times a day every day.
I’ve been extremely lucky that I’m on an EU server/data center/whatever so I haven’t been as affected by these issues. But I can imagine how frustrating it would be to be plagued with such a pernicious issue. It’s not like you can just ‘not do [certain] content’ and avoid it.

-MMORPG That is neither a MMO or RPG.
I’m not sure about visual novel, but it definitely has extremely few RPG mechanics at this point. Frankly I have to wonder what it is Yoshi-P has against RPG mechanics so much, based on this and 16 he must absolutely despise them lol. His idea of an RPG is literally ‘remove every mechanic and make it a cheap movie’

-Forums are not used for feedback.
And when they are, they misunderstand the issue and give the most uninformed and dismissive response possible (I.E healers aren’t fun, their response is ‘go play ultimates’ lol

-Constant job changes/balancing
To be fair (this one and only time) this is as much on the community as much as the devs and I won’t back down on that belief. It’s not just that the devs have some unnatural obsession with balance (though that definitely seems to be a part of it) but they’re also aware that literally any perceived imbalance will cause a tidal wave of complaints. I mean technically the game is more balanced and equalized between jobs than it ever has been before - it just isn’t fun (and arguably not even really balanced outside of numerical values)

-Poor development planning via "stat squish"
I mean based on everything we’ve seen it seems they literally do not plan anything further than the ‘expansion to next expansion’ pipeline. Poor indie dev Square Enix doesn’t have the resources or manpower to consider such things, after all (/sarcasm)


-Poor priority management.
Piss poor management in general tbh. It seems like literally nobody in the team actually communicates in any way, either between teams or within them lol.


-Constantly deleting gameplay features without adding anything back.
God this is the fucking worst, I want my Bard songs back lol. Literally nobody asked for them to become 3 glorified dps stances, let me restore resources that are now almost defunct (MP) or literally do not exist anymore (I mean they could make Paeon give HP regen instead of TP though just sayin’).
Likewise, while I enjoy (or, could enjoy lol) the current Summoner, it seems pretty unforgivable that the ‘old summoner’ was just straight up deleted with absolutely no replacement whatsoever. Like, screw the people who enjoyed that I guess? Lol, thanks Yoshi. An entirely playstyle just up in smoke lol

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Originally Posted by Connor

I mean technically the game is more balanced and equalized between jobs than it ever has been before

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Is it though

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Originally Posted by Valence

Is it though

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I think numerically it mostly is from my knowledge. Like the actual % difference between jobs technically makes them ‘balanced within expected parameters’. That’s just how I understood it though so could be wrong.

In terms of literally any other measure (i.e what they offer, overall advantages of the class/role, etc), absolutely not lol. It’s definitely a superficial kind of ‘balance’; or like an ‘illusionary’ one I guess. Looks balanced, but falls apart under the most minute scrutiny

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Originally Posted by Siba_Lynxphur

-MMORPG That is neither a MMO or RPG.
(It is a online visual novel.)

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All else aside...it's an MMOJRPG, absolutely in-line with most Final Fantasies in the JRPG regard. Very different beast than a CRPG or a TTRPG.

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Originally Posted by Connor

I think numerically it mostly is from my knowledge. Like the actual % difference between jobs technically makes them ‘balanced within expected parameters’. That’s just how I understood it though so could be wrong.

In terms of literally any other measure (i.e what they offer, overall advantages of the class/role, etc), absolutely not lol. It’s definitely a superficial kind of ‘balance’; or like an ‘illusionary’ one I guess. Looks balanced, but falls apart under the most minute scrutiny

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Like even back in HW you could clear with anything. The differences in dps contribution weren't wide enough to have it in any different capacity, even though some jobs were more loved than others - exactly like today. It just happened that we didn't have that arbitrary division between second rate dps jobs and melees/casters like we have today that's artificially baked into the 1% party bonus. Instead differences were baked into the slashing/piercing debuff synergies. Different paradigm, but ultimately, as long as your party satisfied the base requirements for synergies to be filled, you were good to go, only difference being that you had more freedom in role composition, but less freedom in job composition since the two debuff providers (NIN/DRG) were meta and required in party - with WAR as a potential rep for NIN.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Like even back in HW you could clear with anything. The differences in dps contribution weren't wide enough to have it in any different capacity, even though some jobs were more loved than others - exactly like today. It just happened that we didn't have that arbitrary division between second rate dps jobs and melees/casters like we have today that's artificially baked into the 1% party bonus. Instead differences were baked into the slashing/piercing debuff synergies. Different paradigm, but ultimately, as long as your party satisfied the base requirements for synergies to be filled, you were good to go, only difference being that you had more freedom in role composition, but less freedom in job composition since the two debuff providers (NIN/DRG) were meta and required in party - with WAR as a potential rep for NIN.

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Being able to clear with anything and the numbers being balanced are 2 different things. If a hypothetical 'lowest damage possible' can still do enough damage to clear a DPS check, then the meta 'most damage possible' party is still easily going to clear.

And let's not beat around the bush, the differences in damage numbers were quite large. Warrior was doing close to DPS levels of damage, which the other 2 tanks couldn't get near, relatively speaking. With warrior also applying the slashing debuff in rotation, it meant Ninja didn't have to use Dancing Edge, so more Aeolian Edges, not to mention Trick Attack, considered the best raid debuff at the time. You then had Dragoon giving piercing, again, in rotation, which provided an extra 10% free damage to both Machinist and Bard. It wasn't worth replacing one for a caster if you wanted the most damage. Dark Knight done more damage than Paladin, so was the better choice, which leaves the healers. AST was a party buff machine, and now we are down to just 1 healer slot to fill. If we then consider their damage buffs, they mostly aligned together, which we know how powerful that is. This is ignoring everything else that made that party the uncontested best party. Arguably, Heavensward was not balanced at all, despite every party being able to clear everything.

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Originally Posted by Siba_Lynxphur

Hello, I just returned after a 4 year break from FF14.

I will get straight to the point.

My issues with FF14:



-Disconnecting 2+ times a day every day.

-MMORPG That is neither a MMO or RPG.
(It is a online visual novel.)

-Forums are not used for feedback.
(it is used as social media. The FF14 team doesn't even read and reply on these forums anymore. They used to once genuinely care.)

-Constant job changes/balancing
(Makes developers seem directionless and mismanaged, while constantly wasting development resources and time. It also wastes player time, everytime they have to change their hotbars and "relearn" the job.)

-Poor development planning via "stat squish"
(instead of implementing damage caps such as 99,999 or 999,9999, or even simply planning ahead.)

-Poor priority management.
(Doing constant job updates instead of improving new player sign up process, improving login times, improving "patch notes" layout for ease of reading, improving login screen to "save" player choices for title screen, improving the UI to add more options to turn off all the "forced" accessibility featuers, etc etc.)
(Or quite literally doing a graphics update instead of fixing the infrastructure or moving the servers back to Alaksa, or even doing anything to directly address the issues that have existed since moving the servers from Alaska to California.)

-Constantly deleting gameplay features without adding anything back.
(Such as stat point allotment, TP system, pre-battle buffs, slashing/piercing resistances, etc.)





...among so many other issues.


I literally only wanted to come back to play the game to "relax" between bosses on my Elden Ring Rune Level 1 playthrough, and I was not even able to do that.

(At least I finished my rune level 1 playthrough. I have no "reason" to play FF14 anymore now anyway.)

Regardless, this game is such a disappointment to me.

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I want ot point out that they do have a setting for skills to be either two skilsl in one or let you use the skill seperate. For exmaple: Fight or flight into Goring blade. You can have fight or flight change into goring blade, or hit the action cahnge setting under the skill to enable action change. Click that box and you can set Goring balde on your hotbar to use it as a seperate skill. TP being removed i loved that change if you got revived and didnt have someone or a way to recover TP quickly you was screwed on jobs that use TP so quickly. Graphic updates was a good change from all the feedback i heard and read atleast they are trying to improve the game for a longer life cycle. Its not really a visual novel because you can j ust skip cutscenes, get a job to max leve, grind for BiS gear and do harder content or be a crafter/gatherer and just vibe

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

Being able to clear with anything and the numbers being balanced are 2 different things. If a hypothetical 'lowest damage possible' can still do enough damage to clear a DPS check, then the meta 'most damage possible' party is still easily going to clear.

And let's not beat around the bush, the differences in damage numbers were quite large. Warrior was doing close to DPS levels of damage, which the other 2 tanks couldn't get near, relatively speaking. With warrior also applying the slashing debuff in rotation, it meant Ninja didn't have to use Dancing Edge, so more Aeolian Edges, not to mention Trick Attack, considered the best raid debuff at the time. You then had Dragoon giving piercing, again, in rotation, which provided an extra 10% free damage to both Machinist and Bard. It wasn't worth replacing one for a caster if you wanted the most damage. Dark Knight done more damage than Paladin, so was the better choice, which leaves the healers. AST was a party buff machine, and now we are down to just 1 healer slot to fill. If we then consider their damage buffs, they mostly aligned together, which we know how powerful that is. This is ignoring everything else that made that party the uncontested best party. Arguably, Heavensward was not balanced at all, despite every party being able to clear everything.

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Yes? I don't think I ever claimed that the game has been balanced even once in its entire history? That was actually kind of my point?

My biggest gripe is that SE never seems to learn from any mistakes they make...

Forked Tower is an example... I love field ops, and for the most part like playing in the South Horn. Yes there are things they could tweak to make it better, but it's fun and playable and great to do solo or with friends so it works... but then you come to the end, The Forked Tower and it's like they tried everything they could to make it worse than anything they had done before. No casual content because of a lack of money, but there's money for all the new mobile gacha games?

I love this game, but at times feel like they just want to see how far they can push us with some stupid changes, followed by everyone at SE apologizes without any real changes.. At times I feel like they take us for granted and that isn't the way for a gaming company to act in 2026 when there are so many more options.

I know they are human and will make mistakes, we all do, but I would like to see more REAL change and REAL commitment to changes that are needed instead of the empty apologizes.

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Originally Posted by Roehann

My biggest gripe is that SE never seems to learn from any mistakes they make...

Forked Tower is an example... I love field ops, and for the most part like playing in the South Horn. Yes there are things they could tweak to make it better, but it's fun and playable and great to do solo or with friends so it works... but then you come to the end, The Forked Tower and it's like they tried everything they could to make it worse than anything they had done before. No casual content because of a lack of money, but there's money for all the new mobile gacha games?

I love this game, but at times feel like they just want to see how far they can push us with some stupid changes, followed by everyone at SE apologizes without any real changes.. At times I feel like they take us for granted and that isn't the way for a gaming company to act in 2026 when there are so many more options.

I know they are human and will make mistakes, we all do, but I would like to see more REAL change and REAL commitment to changes that are needed instead of the empty apologizes.

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so a realm reborn werent them learning from their mistakes?

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Originally Posted by Deejudanne

so a realm reborn werent them learning from their mistakes?

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More like learning from their past mistakes then immediately creating a whole bunch of entirely new ones lol

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Originally Posted by Valence

Yes? I don't think I ever claimed that the game has been balanced even once in its entire history? That was actually kind of my point?

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But that isn't what you said. The initial claim was that numbers are the most balanced they have ever been. Your response to that was, but every job could clear everything and the damage differences weren't enough for it to be otherwise.

Your response to the claim had nothing to do with the claim itself, which is what I pointed out.

Hmm, while I don't miss the slashing/piercing/yolo debuff nonsense, I do miss the pace of fights in HW/Stormblood, it was a bit slower and gave room for enmity to exist as a party managed thing rather than whatever the heck it is today.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

But that isn't what you said. The initial claim was that numbers are the most balanced they have ever been. Your response to that was, but every job could clear everything and the damage differences weren't enough for it to be otherwise.

Your response to the claim had nothing to do with the claim itself, which is what I pointed out.

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That's exactly what I said. I compared both the state of pve balance back then and today, and I do think that while everything can clear as back then, jobs/roles are imbalanced in a similar manner, and that no, I don't believe the game is more balanced than it used to be.

You can disagree on the numbers, frankly, I don't even know what expansion and what patch you're even referring to in your previous reply (it sounds like HW with the piercing debuff numbers), and you're already making gigantic fallacies by associating the debuff damage gain to DRG alone when it was shared by the jobs benefiting from it as well - if anything you're the one not answering to my claims here, since I specifically covered the debuff synergy issue and the couple of jobs that remained meta because of it (NIN DRG). The same way you bring up that casters could be overshadowed by double rphys, it's the exact same today except this happens within sub roles between different jobs instead (cf MCH for most of SHB, EW and DT for example, but it's happened regularly with other jobs as well, cf the infamous tank imbalanced during 6.1 DSR and 6.2 that climaxed in the P8S fiasco).

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Originally Posted by Deejudanne

so a realm reborn werent them learning from their mistakes?

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At that point they weren't really learning from their mistakes as much as what they were pruning relics of 1.0

More often than not they end up repeating the same mistakes, or they end up learning from the mistake just to completely backpedal, e.g., going from BA -> CLL/Dalriada -> Forked Tower... Where Forked Tower was more of a regression.

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Originally Posted by Valence

That's exactly what I said. I compared both the state of pve balance back then and today, and I do think that while everything can clear as back then, jobs/roles are imbalanced in a similar manner, and that no, I don't believe the game is more balanced than it used to be.

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No it isn't, and let me explain.

In this hypothetical situation, you have a boss that enrages after 61 seconds, Job A can kill it in 60 seconds, Job B can kill it in 30 seconds.

In this scenario, everything can clear the fight. That was the claim you made, however, it is not balanced as Job B is doing twice the damage of Job A, which is the claim you responded to.

if we were to bring this to more realistic numbers, in HW, Warrior was doing (over) 20% more damage than Paladin, this is the data from the last tier of Alexander. If we use Paladin as the baseline, of 60 seconds, then Warrior was killing things in 50 seconds. Current tank balance has the highest DPS tank killing this in 58.8 seconds. That, along with various other changes, means that tanks today are better balanced than they were back in HW.

Going to the P8S scenario, we know the fight was tested a ton by the dev team, and so the bar for enrage was higher. Going back to the analogy, if Job A can kill the boss in 60 seconds, and Job B can kill it in 58, they are fairly well balanced. The problem is that the enrage was set to 59 seconds. So, despite being balanced between each other, the point of failure happened to fall within the balancing gap, which is why some were struggling and others were not.

Hopefully that clears up the difference between the jobs being balanced (the original claim) and jobs being able to clear a fight (your claim) and why you cannot conflate the 2.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

No it isn't, and let me explain.

In this hypothetical situation, you have a boss that enrages after 61 seconds, Job A can kill it in 60 seconds, Job B can kill it in 30 seconds.

In this scenario, everything can clear the fight. That was the claim you made, however, it is not balanced as Job B is doing twice the damage of Job A, which is the claim you responded to.

if we were to bring this to more realistic numbers, in HW, Warrior was doing (over) 20% more damage than Paladin, this is the data from the last tier of Alexander. If we use Paladin as the baseline, of 60 seconds, then Warrior was killing things in 50 seconds. Current tank balance has the highest DPS tank killing this in 58.8 seconds. That, along with various other changes, means that tanks today are better balanced than they were back in HW.

Going to the P8S scenario, we know the fight was tested a ton by the dev team, and so the bar for enrage was higher. Going back to the analogy, if Job A can kill the boss in 60 seconds, and Job B can kill it in 58, they are fairly well balanced. The problem is that the enrage was set to 59 seconds. So, despite being balanced between each other, the point of failure happened to fall within the balancing gap, which is why some were struggling and others were not.

Hopefully that clears up the difference between the jobs being balanced (the original claim) and jobs being able to clear a fight (your claim) and why you cannot conflate the 2.

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I'm sorry but that's not what I wrote. Read it up again. You're trying to enforce whatever fantasy you read out of it when in reality I've said since the beginning that "can clear everything" =/= "balanced". My claim has never been that every job is able to clear a fight. You're literally obsessed with a single sentence I wrote without even reading it in the whole argument. You're trying to stir up a storm in a teapot for whatever reason.

P8S had two tanks doing way less than the two others (PLD/WAR). It has nothing to do with the dev team overshooting the enrage. All tanks could still clear it, albeit some a lot harder than others, and that made it not balanced by definition. This is again one of the many examples I've brought over to say that no, the game isn't balanced even today.

Im so sick of these stat squish.

I want more stat squish.
Level squish.
Long-ass story squish.

Cut the fat. This game has a lot of it.