8.0 Dark Knight capstone skil

Will dark knight get yet another variant of getsuga tensho? (dark energy blast from sword)

Honeslty wish it had more defensive or better end combo then souleater. Yeah the small heal helps in solo but carve and spit can out heal it easily

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Originally Posted by Mercury_Grey

Honeslty wish it had more defensive or better end combo then souleater. Yeah the small heal helps in solo but carve and spit can out heal it easily

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Carve and Spit might outheal a single Soul Eater, but it's a 60s cooldown. In that timeframe you do at least 6 of them.
Besides having a really boring animation, and being the only combo that Dark Knight has left, I think Soul Eater itself is fine. I still remember the complete lack of a heal on Paladin's combos being extremely noticeable back in Shadowbringers, before it got all the healing stuffed into it's burst damage spells.


As for the 8.0 capstone ability, the same can really be asked for all the tanks.
Does Dark Knight get another energy blast from your sword?
Does Warrior get another "I can't believe it's not Fell Cleave" finisher?
Does Gunbreaker get another big damage big explosion sword slash?
Does Paladin get yet another magic blade that you throw at people?

I hope the answer will be no, but it will also depend on the implementation. I don't need yet another thing that I just press every 60 seconds to do more damage.

I wouldn't complain about having more 10y range GCDs with flexible use window tbh.

embrace line aoe
get excited for more line aoe

Could we please get literally anything else for once. Like actual job mechanics so I'm not bored out of my mind until the next burst is up.

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Originally Posted by Zairava

Could we please get literally anything else for once. Like actual job mechanics so I'm not bored out of my mind until the next burst is up.

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You will get a 60s damage cycle soon, going by Gunbreaker. Enjoy!

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Originally Posted by Carighan

You will get a 60s damage cycle soon, going by Gunbreaker. Enjoy!

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At least I get to use Gnashing Fang every 30s lol. Better than 1-2-3 until the next window.

Besides Living Shadow and Disesteem it more or less already is 60s. I'd happily take the 40s cd windows back that DRK had before though thanks.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Carve and Spit might outheal a single Soul Eater, but it's a 60s cooldown. In that timeframe you do at least 6 of them.
Besides having a really boring animation, and being the only combo that Dark Knight has left, I think Soul Eater itself is fine. I still remember the complete lack of a heal on Paladin's combos being extremely noticeable back in Shadowbringers, before it got all the healing stuffed into it's burst damage spells.


As for the 8.0 capstone ability, the same can really be asked for all the tanks.
Does Dark Knight get another energy blast from your sword?
Does Warrior get another "I can't believe it's not Fell Cleave" finisher?
Does Gunbreaker get another big damage big explosion sword slash?
Does Paladin get yet another magic blade that you throw at people?

I hope the answer will be no, but it will also depend on the implementation. I don't need yet another thing that I just press every 60 seconds to do more damage.

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I sometimes forget about getting 6 soul eaters out before next carve and spit since a lot of times i tend to use my flood/edge, shadowbringer or delirium combo. Honeslty soul eater to me would be nice if it had extra healing for crit

I wish Dark Knight were the self-healing job. Maybe it's just me still, after all these years, immediately thinking of the EQ1 Shadow Knight that was half-Necro-half-WArrior, but I wish I had DoTs, a permanent pet to command and lifedrains and lifedraining DoTs. :o

Yeah if we want different tank burst cooldowns we should make dark knight a 30s job gun breaker 1 minute warrior 20s and paladin 40s. 2 minutes is boring as heck.

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Originally Posted by Terhix

I wouldn't complain about having more 10y range GCDs with flexible use window tbh.

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I want more combos but i dont mind if they have some more line aoes in em they are good it's just I always want more for dark knight.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

I wish Dark Knight were the self-healing job. Maybe it's just me still, after all these years, immediately thinking of the EQ1 Shadow Knight that was half-Necro-half-WArrior, but I wish I had DoTs, a permanent pet to command and lifedrains and lifedraining DoTs. :o

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I feel like this has next to nothing to do with XIV DRK, though, nor should it?

Ours draws on, in essence, the power of transgression, of not giving af -- substituting reality with our own. Even DRK's inclusion of Void is less necromantic as it is about unfettered creation / lack of external order.

Let's leave Death Knight (DoTs, permanent pet, necro-knight) to Death Knight. Unholy's just across the street already.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I feel like this has next to nothing to do with XIV DRK, though, nor should it?

Ours draws on, in essence, the power of transgression, of not giving af -- substituting reality with our own. Even DRK's inclusion of Void is less necromantic as it is about unfettered creation / lack of external order.

Let's leave Death Knight (DoTs, permanent pet, necro-knight) to Death Knight. Unholy's just across the street already.

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Now hold on, while Carighan is asking for a lot Dark knight was robbed of its drain tanking identity by warrior. Abyssal drain was a gcd you could enhance with dark arts to heal per enemy hit. This was changed right as warrior got nascent flash in shadowbringers. Personally warrior and dark knight are very similar 1 man army archetypes in their lore so drain tanking makes sense for both. Im glad dark knight got some back with the living dead and carve changes.

Yeah it wasn't meant as a serious suggestion. It's a very different form of that what the Dark Knight is although you're correct they were the tank with the "most" self-healing pre-Warrior-retooling. (such as it were, it still wasn't a lot)

Although now that makes me wonder, given the lore behind Dark Knights, if the job would not be interesting if its defensive tools essentially had low if any CDs and no direct duration, rather they drained mana while active. And then in turn there's more advanced ways of regenerating mana.

I am hoping for a rework in 8.0, but I'm also hoping the rework will keep things that people who main DRK like - as opposed people who don't or who jump on the job once to level it to the cap and then complain about how it's not a WAR in dungeons.

The highly concentrated burst and the strong and flexible mitigation kit is why a lot of people play the job and arguably why DRK one of the two meta tanks in high end content today. Going from high burst to dots and high mits to self healing would maybe satisfy some people who don't play or main the job, but it would be a complete rug-pull for the people that do. Then there is the fact that if DRK just got more self healing right now without losing anything else, it would just become the best tank in the game period (bar some niches where PLD shines).

Thematically DRK always felt to me more like a dark paladin than anything like death knight, there isn't really anything necromantic about the job, not even the Living Shadow (if you've done the job quests, you know). Que Burialgoods.

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Originally Posted by Reginald_Cain

Will dark knight get yet another variant of getsuga tensho? (dark energy blast from sword)

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I think we will end up with an upgrade to living shadow, "Living Legion" where we summon 2 or even 3 simulacrums

I wish they brought back Dark Passenger, scourage and power slash animations in some capacity.

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Originally Posted by Terhix

The highly concentrated burst and the strong and flexible mitigation kit is why a lot of people play the job and arguably why DRK one of the two meta tanks in high end content today.

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I mean, the difference is marginal. It exists, don't get me wrong, but mitigation are 95%+ identical in function. They all look&feel somewhat different but it just doesn't make a meaningful difference. You don't have any fights where non-DRKs cannot mitigate something and hence aren't useful for a specific mechanic, you don't have any fights where the extra mitigation is the difference between a wipe and a clear. It's all just smoke and mirrors to give the illusion that the four tanks aren't for all intents and purposes identical.

All remaining functional differences are in invulns, WAR in dungeons vs the other tanks (such as it is, since all dungeons are so trivial you never need the WAR-selfhealing to begin with) and in how very rarely you can do some tricks with Cover on a Paladin. That's it.

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Originally Posted by Reginald_Cain

Now hold on, while Carighan is asking for a lot Dark knight was robbed of its drain tanking identity by warrior. Abyssal drain was a gcd you could enhance with dark arts to heal per enemy hit.

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DRK wasn't "robbed by Warrior", though, any more than Warrior itself was. Both were simply dumbed down in Shadowbringers, losing on-demand spenders in favor of CDs. Remember, WAR lost its self-heal GCDs [Inner Beast, Steel Cyclone] at the same time (while PLD in turn lost the ability to buff its GCD heal).

Moreover, only one of those jobs launched without a damage reduction ability (or, none greater than 5% mitigation, and only one mitigation tool at all), and it wasn't DRK. WAR is XIV's original self-healing (and originally self-healing and max-Hp-boosting only) tank (with Inner Beast originally just healing for up to 1700 effective potency since it healed for 3x damage dealt and could thereby crit).

Not sure why you're trying to lecture someone who's played the game since its start on what was in it, and Carighan's post was very explicit in preferring a more necromantic (DoTs and minion(s) approach to DRK. Which is already something one can find on WoW's DK (Death Knight) just fine but has nothing to do with XIV's DRK (Dark Knight).

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Originally Posted by Carighan

I mean, the difference is marginal. It exists, don't get me wrong, but mitigation are 95%+ identical in function. They all look&feel somewhat different but it just doesn't make a meaningful difference. You don't have any fights where non-DRKs cannot mitigate something and hence aren't useful for a specific mechanic, you don't have any fights where the extra mitigation is the difference between a wipe and a clear. It's all just smoke and mirrors to give the illusion that the four tanks aren't for all intents and purposes identical.

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I haven't claimed that the difference is huge, and you are now exaggerating it in the other direction. DRK can comfortably take a magic buster with a TBN + Oblation + Dark Mind alone and can do so every minute on the dot, WAR's analog would be using only Bloodwhetting + Thrill which is noticably less eHP with a much longer cooldown. There is no content where another tank can't mit something, but there is plenty of content where another tank has to commit much more important cooldowns than DRK, or - more commonly - where DRK just mits frequent but not super lethal damage spikes better than other tanks, but other tanks retroactively heal later.

Between the 4 tanks the way DRK's kit works is the most different, and it is different enough to be a reason for someone to prefer to play DRK over other tanks, and for other people to prefer other tanks over DRK, and that's good. If we are going to do changes or additions to tanks I think you'd agree that making DRK more like other tanks is the exactly wrong direction this game should take?

Of course it should only diversy, my point was more that the existing difference makes no actual difference. It's stylistic only, for all intends and purposes just smoke&mirrors with no gameplay element behind it.

Because, and this is the crucial part: Yes, DRKs can in theory absorb a 60s staggered magic tankbuster. Sure.

So... which fight has that exactly? That's right, none do because the other tanks could not survive it and we cannot have that. The fact that DRKs have more and shorter-CDed mits is neat for flavor, but it makes no actual difference to class identity as everything is designed to be mitigated by warriors anyways. There is no fight where a DRK due to their increased mitigation supply can survive something without external healing that say, a Paladin could not, and hence in this fight a healer now doesn't have to swap over to a different platform (or so) to provide healing. Though now that I mention it one exception to this comes to mind but it's not on mitigation, during M8S phase 2 Paladins could heal themselves and the other tank when doing the tethers when opposite the healers, preventing the healers from ever having to leave their stack-tower and hence providing a bit of safety. That's Paladins with Clemency though, and it made all of ~2 casts per kill difference. That is actual class difference, right there. It made a meaningful impact, sadly only in a single fight, one where the entire gameplay of the group changes based on the capabilities or incapabilities of a specific class.

Compare also how in TBC WoW tank Paladins could stand with their groups for add-pickups due to being able to leave the high-aggro consecration at the add spawn or how in early GW2 raiding you would find Chronomancers able to go for their scepter to essentially tank from range so they are properly centered for buff range.

I mean right now I have equivalent hotbar setups for 3 out of the 4 tanks, every 60 seconds I press Shift+3, then 3, 4, 5. It works out that way, perfectly. Yes, Shift+3 does nothing every second time on DRK (Living Shadow) but eh, still awfully close to playing 4 Megaman levels with one controller performing one set of inputs to all four at once, no?

That being said I also don't want to gloss over the existing differences still being important, simply because they're all we have right now. You are absolutely right in that regard. And in a better class system these smoke&mirror things would still be the majority of all differences, they'd just no longer be the only ones. I struggle a bit to explain what I mean, but there should be moments like feeling like a Warrior in a dungeon, but for every tank, constantly. But different for each tank. If that makes sense?

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Originally Posted by Carighan

Of course it should only diversy, my point was more that the existing difference makes no actual difference. It's stylistic only, for all intends and purposes just smoke&mirrors with no gameplay element behind it.

Because, and this is the crucial part: Yes, DRKs can in theory absorb a 60s staggered magic tankbuster. Sure.

So... which fight has that exactly? That's right, none do because the other tanks could not survive it and we cannot have that.

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Not aimed just as yours, Carighan, as others have followed the same warrant, but...

In any serious content (outside of perhaps... Savage Criterion?), we absolutely can have that, because we have two tanks, allowing between them many more available timings for meeting tankbusters.

You'd have to face magical tankbusters beyond what can be dealt with via both tanks' Rampart and one's 2-minute combined every 30 seconds (or every other magical TB beyond the above within a minute of the other with 2 occurring per average of 75s) for this to become an issue.

A small extra bit of typal capacity therefore tends to become more a matter of ease of positioning or swaps (often by not needing to swap), rather than a potential necessity for survival (or wholly wasted beyond that).

Beyond that, maybe one tank could 1/5/2 comp sooner than others for a given fight, or without a Scholar required, but that's not a problem.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

(...) There is no fight where a DRK due to their increased mitigation supply can survive something without external healing that say, a Paladin could not (...)

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Originally Posted by Terhix

(...) There is no content where another tank can't mit something, but there is plenty of content where another tank has to commit much more important cooldowns than DRK, or - more commonly - where DRK just mits frequent but not super lethal damage spikes better than other tanks, but other tanks retroactively heal later. (...)

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Nice strawman.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

DRK wasn't "robbed by Warrior", though, any more than Warrior itself was. Both were simply dumbed down in Shadowbringers, losing on-demand spenders in favor of CDs. Remember, WAR lost its self-heal GCDs [Inner Beast, Steel Cyclone] at the same time (while PLD in turn lost the ability to buff its GCD heal).

Moreover, only one of those jobs launched without a damage reduction ability (or, none greater than 5% mitigation, and only one mitigation tool at all), and it wasn't DRK. WAR is XIV's original self-healing (and originally self-healing and max-Hp-boosting only) tank (with Inner Beast originally just healing for up to 1700 effective potency since it healed for 3x damage dealt and could thereby crit).

Not sure why you're trying to lecture someone who's played the game since its start on what was in it, and Carighan's post was very explicit in preferring a more necromantic (DoTs and minion(s) approach to DRK. Which is already something one can find on WoW's DK (Death Knight) just fine but has nothing to do with XIV's DRK (Dark Knight).

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Yeah cool warrior was robbed of its depth and fun too. That was never something I denied. That doesn't take away from the fact dark knight had cool healing skills like soul survivor and gcd abyssal drain. I can live with dark knight being more damage, shielding and timing centric but I think abyssal drain is a cool animation and I'd like to to be the aoe soul eater equivalent. Maybe make it heal once and not per target. Make it give mana and blood too so it doesn't slow down the aoe mana gen.

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Originally Posted by Reginald_Cain

Yeah cool warrior was robbed of its depth and fun too. That was never something I denied.

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It was something you entirely mis-attributed so badly, though, that one can't help but wonder at the rest. A gamewide simplification =/= a job having its feature stolen by a job that (A) had the feature first and more integrally/importantly and (B) lost the exact same feature.

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Soul Survivor

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Amounted to, at best, 15% hp per minute. It healed for about as much, at the time, as a Souleater.

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I can live with dark knight being more damage, shielding and timing centric

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It's been this since Stormblood, which was when DRK was at its most unique.

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I think abyssal drain is a cool animation and I'd like to to be the aoe soul eater equivalent.

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Let's consider what this really means, gameplay-wise, though: a 3-step AoE combo. No more, no less. At present, the AoE combo is more resource-efficient than the ST combo because Stalwart Soul gives both the MP of Syphon and the Blood of Souleater. Adding a third step, especially if unable to do anything on a per-target-hit basis, would just cost us an extra button just to needlessly slow our AoE.

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Make it give mana and blood too so it doesn't slow down the aoe mana gen.

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Stalwart Soul already does this, though, so what is the intended result other than just seeing Abyssal Drain's animation more often? Is there to be any gameplay involved (beyond making the AoE combo more sluggish)?

And if that's our goal, we can manage that more easily just by unlinking CnS and AD (or giving them an extra shared charge and a 30s CD and making Abyssal debuff its primary target for life steal for 7 seconds or so as to be more often of use) but giving Shadowbringer an MP cost in turn (as not to bloat our opener), etc.

Or even just by moving the self-healing from Souleater to Bloodspiller and then replacing Quietus with Abyssal Drain (again, ideally, with some situational ST usefulness).

Yeah I'd prefer if Bloodspiller and Quietus had some actual use. I originally thought they'd be the moves that generate mana, since that'd somewhat make... sense? Generate blood via combo -> blood to mana -> mana to shield -> shield to proc -> proc to damage buff.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

Yeah I'd prefer if Bloodspiller and Quietus had some actual use. I originally thought they'd be the moves that generate mana, since that'd somewhat make... sense? Generate blood via combo -> blood to mana -> mana to shield -> shield to proc -> proc to damage buff.

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Which is somewhat how it used to function in Stormblood.
Spend MP to boost your damage with Dark Arts or mitigate damage with TBN, generate blood with your combo or TBN, spend blood on either Bloodspiller for damage or Delirium to extend Blood Weapon, longer Blood Weapon = more MP to use on TBN or Dark Arts.

Of course there could've been more interaction between blood and MP, but the Shadowbringers rework went in the completely wrong direction and made the two resources not interact at all.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

Yeah I'd prefer if Bloodspiller and Quietus had some actual use. I originally thought they'd be the moves that generate mana, since that'd somewhat make... sense? Generate blood via combo -> blood to mana -> mana to shield -> shield to proc -> proc to damage buff.

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Fully agree with the MP generation part to be added to Blood gauge's actions, since each of the Scarlet Delirum actions restores 200 MP, they can add the same MP restoration amount to Bloodspiller and Quietus.

Interestingly enough, Quietus used to restore MP whereas Bloodspiller did not. I see no reason why they couldn't just add MP restoration got both.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

And if that's our goal, we can manage that more easily just by unlinking CnS and AD (or giving them an extra shared charge and a 30s CD and making Abyssal debuff its primary target for life steal for 7 seconds or so as to be more often of use) but giving Shadowbringer an MP cost in turn (as not to bloat our opener), etc.
Or even just by moving the self-healing from Souleater to Bloodspiller and then replacing Quietus with Abyssal Drain (again, ideally, with some situational ST usefulness).

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I like these suggestions too. Anything to give the illusion of doing more without making it uncomfortably busy would be fine, I just feel like i see certain animations too often(mainly soul eater combo) and others not enough (abyssal drain). If dark knight gets serious changes that actually make it more engaging or more busy would be cool by me as well. I guess I just miss how special it felt in stormblood and feel it's gotten the short end of the stick from homogenization like warrior.

Paladin on the other hand feels so much better to me than it did in stormblood. getting a dash and instant cast long range spells in shadowbringers was huge and makes it stand out compared to the other tanks. I kinda hope they don't give ALL the tanks ranged aoe combos like Xenosys Vex suggested that just seems kinda lazy to me idk. If another tank were froced to get a magic combo it should be dark knight or mystic knight if thats the next tank in 8.0

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Originally Posted by Reginald_Cain

Paladin on the other hand feels so much better to me than it did in stormblood. getting a dash and instant cast long range spells in shadowbringers was huge and makes it stand out compared to the other tanks. I kinda hope they don't give ALL the tanks ranged aoe combos like Xenosys Vex suggested that just seems kinda lazy to me idk. If another tank were froced to get a magic combo it should be dark knight or mystic knight if thats the next tank in 8.0

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Sorry to nitpick again, but... It was the only tank not to have a gap-closer in Stormblood, having a powerful ranged attack instead, so giving it a gap-closer to be there in identical was hardly differentiating, and the changes to said ranged spell just made said cast less unique (even if also less anti-synergetic).

Had it done anything uniquely shield-ish with the dash or the cast-time reductions (including, say, not wasting a guaranteed block by preventing blocks briefly with a cast), I could see your point, but...

I really hope tanks in general get some care in 8.0 (also healers) Capstones are going to generally just be a finisher on your finisher, I can't wait for Blades of courage for pld :)

I think ff14 really needs a mass job overhaul but the sad reality it's likely to never happen, but if we want something more then 4-5 generic skill upgrades and a finisher for tanks we have to start actually looking into reworking them which is likely not going to happen which gets me sad because I can't even speculate cool things without thinking "yeah no not realistic".

Its mostly just sad that we're still playing shadowbringers jobs (or downgrade versions that got simplified).

Yeah the ever-extending nature of finishers is a problem in general, just look at Red Mages. :D

Even Reapers got another finisher on their already-existing Shroud finisher every 2 minutes. Paladins will probably be calling 16 GCDs worth of swords every minute, soon. Dark Knights will never stop spinning and unleashing line AoEs. Warriors might as well just get a channeled 15s animation of clobbering the enemy with ever larger ground explosions. And Gunbreakers will don ballet dresses to fit their animations.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

Yeah the ever-extending nature of finishers is a problem in general, just look at Red Mages. :D

Even Reapers got another finisher on their already-existing Shroud finisher every 2 minutes. Paladins will probably be calling 16 GCDs worth of swords every minute, soon. Dark Knights will never stop spinning and unleashing line AoEs. Warriors might as well just get a channeled 15s animation of clobbering the enemy with ever larger ground explosions. And Gunbreakers will don ballet dresses to fit their animations.

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Don't give them ideas, Seraphism was already bad enough.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Don't give them ideas, Seraphism was already bad enough.

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Too late, we already have a spinning GNB animation with Terminal Velocity. Now don the dress.