Tillana should not give 50 Gauge.

Played DNC for a while this expansion, and my biggest gripe with it is literally Tillana. When you know your friends in a 8-man are mashing buttons? I see that gauge go from 0 to 100 pretty darn fast. Tillana is a great ability to use since it's one of our big hitters next to enhanced Standard, Saber Dance, and Starfall.

The issue is that DNC gets too much Gauge to even manage, and if they're full? All that extra Gauge goes to waste, including procs from allies during the 2m window.

There's a good way to fix it without destroying the buff cap that's already there(which tbh the Devs should REALLY take a look at expanding): Turn Tech Step into a Combo that doesn't break. Tech Step changes to Tillana(no Gauge added), changes into Dance of the Dawn. Easy enough so that DNC can actually manage their gauge because there's already plenty of that from their basic GCDs as is alongside utilizing Last Dance.

The "Feast or Famine" design in DNC is really what causes problems with Tillana's Gauge increase in the first place, so by making it a complete combo utilizing the new systems involved that change Actions, it makes it a lot easier and leaves Saber to be used for Gauge only or to dump in burst.

It's annoying and something that's been wildly criticized, but on the other hand you can also wait to clear your gauge enough before using Tilana. I like priorities and having to triage the gauge on jobs, and BRD is the only other job that still somewhat allows this a little. I'd hate to see more of it gone for the sake of simplicity.

Yeah this isn't really a problem I see. You aren't forced to use Tillana on a specific GCD, you can swap it with a sd first to spend 50 before regaining 50, then sd again to remove the 50 again.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

Yeah this isn't really a problem I see. You aren't forced to use Tillana on a specific GCD, you can swap it with a sd first to spend 50 before regaining 50, then sd again to remove the 50 again.

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It can be a problem in a competent group.

If you delay Tillana too long, you may drift it outside of buffs and you want it in buffs.


The nature of Esprit being random procs from each raid members attacks or spells means you can literally go from 0 to 50 gauge in an instant and it's super frustrating to do that as you press tillana and you overcap because of RNG gauge generation.

I've had plenty of situations in Savage and FRU where I've pressed Tillana and in the brief moment it takes the server to register the hit, my gauge jumped above 50 causing an overcap.


I suggest one of the following changes to address this


1. Tillana no longer grants 50 Gauge and Dance of the Dawn Ready also removes the Esprit cost from Dance of the Dawn.
2. Esprit Cap is doubled while under the effect of Technical Finish.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

Yeah this isn't really a problem I see. You aren't forced to use Tillana on a specific GCD, you can swap it with a sd first to spend 50 before regaining 50, then sd again to remove the 50 again.

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Yeah, but when in an 8-man group Tillana is your strongest GCD after Dance of the Dawn and while Standard is on CD buffed by Flourish. This creates a problem because even if the difference is 600 vs 540, that's still a loss of 540 if you overcap since it's in dividends of 50. In 8-man I'm literally talking from experience seeing my gauge go from 0 to 100 and it feels bad that I'm wasting Gauge when pressing Tillana - no other job has this problem, and if somebody is going to say "SAM has this issue" then maybe take a look at high-end SAMs and how they manage their Kenki(which, honestly, is a REALLY feel-good mechanic when you're managing your gauge properly on SAM).

DNC shouldn't have to deal with a button that fights against its own Buff. It's like how MCH AoE fights against itself during Hypercharge and needs fixing.

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Originally Posted by NightHour

2. Esprit Cap is doubled while under the effect of Technical Finish.

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This might be a solution to the Overcapping issue since GNB recently had their problems alleved in their rotation with potential overcapping. Have it just naturally go up to 200 instead of 100 just ensures you're throwing at least 4 Sabers, even when you're given Famine(yes, it has happened where I've gotten literally only 2 Sabers off during Technical in 8-man which is really bad luck). It might help stabilize some of DNC's damage rubberbanding it does during burst too, since this means you'd rather keep at least 100 for guaranteed 2 Sabers, and depending on RNG you can actually feasibly fit Tillana in there within the 10 GCDs given.

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Originally Posted by NightHour

It can be a problem in a competent group.

If you delay Tillana too long, you may drift it outside of buffs and you want it in buffs.


The nature of Esprit being random procs from each raid members attacks or spells means you can literally go from 0 to 50 gauge in an instant and it's super frustrating to do that as you press tillana and you overcap because of RNG gauge generation.

I've had plenty of situations in Savage and FRU where I've pressed Tillana and in the brief moment it takes the server to register the hit, my gauge jumped above 50 causing an overcap.


I suggest one of the following changes to address this


1. Tillana no longer grants 50 Gauge and Dance of the Dawn Ready also removes the Esprit cost from Dance of the Dawn.
2. Esprit Cap is doubled while under the effect of Technical Finish.

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I agree overall with your assessment that under especially good burst rng you can constantly have the gauge give you enough for Sabre 3 or 4 times which will fill up the burst pretty heavily while you still need to use your biggest nukes (Starfall, 1x Last Dance, Finishing Move).
I do not agree with those solutions at all because of the reasons I mentioned above. It waters all decision making down to nothing beyond "use shit whenever you want". It's the exact same problem some other jobs have complained to death about when specific gauge constraints have been removed.

I'm ready to admit I'm not sure how I'd solve the issue, but I do not want to see the job go through the same sandpaper treatment than others have. I've lost track of what Samurai does with its gauge during bursts, perhaps there is ideas to be taken there?

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Originally Posted by Valence

I agree overall with your assessment that under especially good burst rng you can constantly have the gauge give you enough for Sabre 3 or 4 times which will fill up the burst pretty heavily while you still need to use your biggest nukes (Starfall, 1x Last Dance, Finishing Move).
I do not agree with those solutions at all because of the reasons I mentioned above. It waters all decision making down to nothing beyond "use shit whenever you want". It's the exact same problem some other jobs have complained to death about when specific gauge constraints have been removed.

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To be fair Last Dance is the same Potency as Saber, so it's technically just insurance compared to Gauge since they're both 540. Still, you're spending 2 GCDs on Finishing Move and Starfall as you said. That leaves 7 more GCDs to fill after using at least 1 Dance of the Dawn, which is either your Filler Procs or more Saber.

In regards to decision making on DNC...there really is not many decisions to be made at all exempting Gauge Management. It's not that complex like SAM is when it comes to deciding what to do with your Gauge since with SAM you're keeping in mind the same thing except more controlled since SAM generates gauge off its attacks, not some other person that's giving you RNG procs. That's what makes the job feel good when you're using it properly and provides a level of skill expression.

If anything the only real decisions on DNC are Mits, Curing Waltz Timing, and when to spend Gauge to make room for more gauge. Other than that? Stare at timers, manage Feathers as they come - that's it. There's not a lot there to bother with unless your raid starts eating and giving you a ton of gauge in one GCD roll(anywhere from 0-70). This is why Tillana feels bad. DNC has no control over their own gauge, and thus Tillana being 600 + 50 Gauge is bad design because they don't have the same level of control other jobs do. That's where your argument falls apart.

Saying that we shouldn't change it because of 'simplicity' isn't real when the job itself is already simple as is and your only depth is gauge management, CDs and Procs. Feathers are manageable. Partner is not and neither is Technical and it's why fixed values don't work very well with an RNG-based job because it becomes chaotic. Recently when I was doing the current EX I literally could not use any more gauge than was coming in the entire Technical Buff: That's where I was forced to burn Tillana and lose out on that 50 because I had too much being genned from my 7 other raid members. It has to work in Feast as much as it does Famine to function, otherwise you're just losing value.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

To be fair Last Dance is the same Potency as Saber, so it's technically just insurance compared to Gauge since they're both 540. Still, you're spending 2 GCDs on Finishing Move and Starfall as you said. That leaves 7 more GCDs to fill after using at least 1 Dance of the Dawn, which is either your Filler Procs or more Saber.

In regards to decision making on DNC...there really is not many decisions to be made at all exempting Gauge Management. It's not that complex like SAM is when it comes to deciding what to do with your Gauge since with SAM you're keeping in mind the same thing except more controlled since SAM generates gauge off its attacks, not some other person that's giving you RNG procs. That's what makes the job feel good when you're using it properly and provides a level of skill expression.

If anything the only real decisions on DNC are Mits, Curing Waltz Timing, and when to spend Gauge to make room for more gauge. Other than that? Stare at timers, manage Feathers as they come - that's it. There's not a lot there to bother with unless your raid starts eating and giving you a ton of gauge in one GCD roll(anywhere from 0-70). This is why Tillana feels bad. DNC has no control over their own gauge, and thus Tillana being 600 + 50 Gauge is bad design because they don't have the same level of control other jobs do. That's where your argument falls apart.

Saying that we shouldn't change it because of 'simplicity' isn't real when the job itself is already simple as is and your only depth is gauge management, CDs and Procs. Feathers are manageable. Partner is not and neither is Technical and it's why fixed values don't work very well with an RNG-based job because it becomes chaotic. Recently when I was doing the current EX I literally could not use any more gauge than was coming in the entire Technical Buff: That's where I was forced to burn Tillana and lose out on that 50 because I had too much being genned from my 7 other raid members. It has to work in Feast as much as it does Famine to function, otherwise you're just losing value.

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They took away MCH's Barrel Stabilizer and RPR's Plentiful Harvest granting 50 gauge in DT only to decide..


"Lets give the mechanic we removed from MCH and RPR to DNC!"

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

To be fair Last Dance is the same Potency as Saber, so it's technically just insurance compared to Gauge since they're both 540. Still, you're spending 2 GCDs on Finishing Move and Starfall as you said. That leaves 7 more GCDs to fill after using at least 1 Dance of the Dawn, which is either your Filler Procs or more Saber.

In regards to decision making on DNC...there really is not many decisions to be made at all exempting Gauge Management. It's not that complex like SAM is when it comes to deciding what to do with your Gauge since with SAM you're keeping in mind the same thing except more controlled since SAM generates gauge off its attacks, not some other person that's giving you RNG procs. That's what makes the job feel good when you're using it properly and provides a level of skill expression.

If anything the only real decisions on DNC are Mits, Curing Waltz Timing, and when to spend Gauge to make room for more gauge. Other than that? Stare at timers, manage Feathers as they come - that's it. There's not a lot there to bother with unless your raid starts eating and giving you a ton of gauge in one GCD roll(anywhere from 0-70). This is why Tillana feels bad. DNC has no control over their own gauge, and thus Tillana being 600 + 50 Gauge is bad design because they don't have the same level of control other jobs do. That's where your argument falls apart.

Saying that we shouldn't change it because of 'simplicity' isn't real when the job itself is already simple as is and your only depth is gauge management, CDs and Procs. Feathers are manageable. Partner is not and neither is Technical and it's why fixed values don't work very well with an RNG-based job because it becomes chaotic. Recently when I was doing the current EX I literally could not use any more gauge than was coming in the entire Technical Buff: That's where I was forced to burn Tillana and lose out on that 50 because I had too much being genned from my 7 other raid members. It has to work in Feast as much as it does Famine to function, otherwise you're just losing value.

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You still have to use at least the Last Dance you'll generate prior to enter the burst (from Standard Step), else it'll get overwritten by Finishing. It's only the second one you'll get from Finishing that you can afford to drift outside of the window if you get enough Sabre.

I know there isn't many decisions to be made it's been whittled down expansion after expansion with the introduction of more nukes that have zero consideration beyond just using their button on CD (Last Dance, Finishing, Starfall, DotD), and it's been the same with BRD (Blast Arrow, Resonant, Encore). The bursts of those two jobs used to be a lot more priority based than they are now, unfortunately - with pre SHB MCH. I don't want to make them even less so, especially since I do consider this to be an identity marker of the rphys role (at least it used to be until they butchered MCH). Generally it's always been a combination of rng procs, overwriting, and gauge that defines those bursts as non static, and they're the only two jobs like that as far as I know.

SAM is different because SAM is a fixed rotation with no rng and no partner procs, even if it can vary if you're not having full uptime.

DNC used to have decision making in ShB with a lot of proc overwriting because Flourish procs wouldn't stack with normal procs, which required to keep enough gauge for Sabre to soak up potential procs the GCD before using Flourish. It also had AoE procs to use during burst because they were actually a gain to use on single target. It also had to balance this out with Sabre during the burst, because entering burst with a lot of gauge would give you the best bang for your buck, but you'd also perhaps would have used a lot of it before not to waste Flourish procs. There was a surprising amount of decision making on the fly.
EW removed all of this when they decided to do away with proc overwriting, which is fair, but it also didn't replace it with anything interesting, and Tillana didn't even give 50 gauge either, while it added all those 2 min nukes to use in the burst instead of AoEs that were entirely removed from any single target considerations.
If anything, DT actually re-added a modicum of decision making with Tillana even though it added yet another static nuke to the burst (DotD).

This is why my argument specifically doesn't fall apart. You're trying to tear down the little that DT re-added to decision making and I cannot abide by this, gauge overcapping or not.

Now you can even math it out. Realistically the problem arises when you generate 100 gauge or more under 2 GCDs (50+ gauge per GCD on average over multiple GCDs) and this keeps happening enough until your burst window runs out.
- If you do not overcap any gauge but Tillana moves out, you lose 60 potency in the window.
- If you do overcap, you lose 54 potency per 10 gauge accrued. Overcapping by 10 is therefore a difference of 6 potency, while overcapping by any other amount is a complete loss.
-> This means that you need to prioritize Sabre over Tillana. This is the exact same principle than BRD with Pitch Perfect overcap, you don't want it to overcap and you'll use the lower potency 2 stacks prior to any Empyreal, period. This is part of the job mechanics, and saying that it feels bad to me is just a matter of perspective. To me it feels actually good because when I make the correct decision I know that I maximized what the job mechanics allow me to do. Using Tillana outside of the burst window isn't gross, it just means your burst window already had a crazy good rng. If anything, the real culprit is the addition of way too many braindead 2min nukes that bloat the burst and compete for slots.

Now then, if you tell me that you can overcap by OVER 100 under 2 GCDs, maybe, and that I could consider to be a problem because technically it can happen. This means that no matter what you do, even with Tillana out of the picture, you can't spend gauge fast enough with Sabre to offset the gains.
I do not know how much this happens mathematically though. You need over 5 party members to generate esprit and then do it again the next GCD (although some also have faster GCDs), provided you're using nukes and not esprit generating moves like your filler. Through binomial probabilities, chances to get 4 esprit procs under a GCD from party members is about 4.5%, and 5 is 0.9% (with a rough average of 20% generation per job and 30% from the DNC iirc)? This drops to ridiculous levels for 16 trials over 2 GCDs (10 procs < 0.05%) Check with the Balance/AS tbh they probably have their models better established than this napkin math.

So far I do think that when people overcap, that's in most cases because they fucked up somewhere. The "conflict" happens from doing everything correctly when having enough Sabre to fill up all remaining slots of the burst without overcapping AND pushing Tillana out. But as said above, this means your burst was crazy good already and you prioritizing Sabre over Tillana was a gain and most likely optimal due to avoiding overcaps. Remember pre EW BRD? The amount of overcapping from rng spikes was completely crazy and imo that was fine as well, because the spikes felt good and you tried to make the most out of it. Was I complaining in AoE situations because I was generating more procs than I could spend? Not really, it was hilariously fun.

Using the argument that the job is already simple so we can sandpaper it further is completely crazy to me.

Alright. Let's go over this from your perspective then since you're not even bothering to read.

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Originally Posted by Valence

You still have to use at least the Last Dance you'll generate prior to enter the burst (from Standard Step), else it'll get overwritten by Finishing. It's only the second one you'll get from Finishing that you can afford to drift outside of the window if you get enough Sabre.

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On opener? Yes. You have to do that within the first 3 GCDs. Otherwise? It's debatable since at times you also might be having to drain your Gauge depending on your Partner in the fight just before burst if you're hitting 80. Optimally you are right provided you don't run into Famine by using it outside of Burst to prep for Burst.

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Originally Posted by Valence

If anything, DT actually re-added a modicum of decision making with Tillana even though it added yet another static nuke to the burst (DotD).

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Here's the problem: It didn't change anything from EW aside from adding that nuke. There was no decision making returned back to the player that impacted DNC's performance. The only decision you got was whether you would have to waste gauge through an RNG mechanic generated by your allies during Burst - that's not decision making. That's forced. Tillana either is used during Famine to generate the 50 Gauge, or it's saved until the end. You cannot say that Saber is prioritized over Tillana if you're right at the last GCD of your burst. If you overcap? Well shit, you lost potency and has no reflection on a player's skill handling that. That's bad design. Already on activation of Technical Step we get DotD as is, so we're already going to be pressing the button anyway to dump gauge.

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Originally Posted by Valence

So far I do think that when people overcap, that's in most cases because they fucked up somewhere. The "conflict" happens from doing everything correctly when having enough Sabre to fill up all remaining slots of the burst without overcapping AND pushing Tillana out. But as said above, this means your burst was crazy good already and you prioritizing Sabre over Tillana was a gain and most likely optimal due to avoiding overcaps.

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I feel like you're overlooking the core aspect of DNC and arguing in the wrong direction. If you're saying that it's because the player messed up something in their gauge management, which mind, is determined by their own base GCDs and ally attack GCD frequency, that's not their fault. You cannot say that this is the DNC player's fault when they have resources forced upon them by their Partner or the Party if they're already hitting their GCDs and pressing Saber to drain gauge properly. The instance in where you are saying you push out Tillana is wrong because Tillana is 600 plus the 50 Gauge in a whole GCD. That's 60 more potency than Saber draining resources under raid buff. As said above, I will repeat it again: Tillana cannot be left out of burst and at most be used at the end as the last GCD in the burst to make the most use out of potency, Gauge overcapping or not.

Every 10 Gauge overcapped is an 108 potency loss, and there's not a lot the DNC can do about that other than their own GCD and Gauge Management.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Remember pre EW BRD? The amount of overcapping from rng spikes was completely crazy and imo that was fine as well, because the spikes felt good and you tried to make the most out of it. Was I complaining in AoE situations because I was generating more procs than I could spend? Not really, it was hilariously fun.

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I do because I played BRD during that time. RNG Spikes were nice, but let me remind you of something BRD has that DNC doesn't - Resource Generation involving oGCDs. Bloodletter? That's an oGCD that's generated by Mage's Ballad. Pitch Perfect? oGCD generated during Wanderer's Minuet. It felt good because you could continue your rotation without having to manage your GCDs down to the point it is causing a loss because you aren't spending fast enough.

DNC cannot spend fast enough if their luck is too good and they get slammed with resource generation. All of DNC's Spenders are GCD. The difference is night and day. You cannot compare Feathers either because those are self-generated. The issue I am pinpointing at, and that you have glossed over is the fact that DNC cannot control its own Gauge generation like other jobs can, and the fact we've been given a 50 Gauge Generation Tool is not helping matters due to the fluctuation of RNG when paired with a Partner plus an 8-man party. In 4-man? This is understandable because you have less generation sources during burst.

In 8-man it is insufferable because you are taking a loss if you cannot spend fast enough with a 2.5s GCD. I do not know how to make this any clearer.

Edit: One other thing - I did a quick comb over the other jobs, and guess what? They either manage their own gauge by themselves, or have set timers. That makes DNC even more of an outlier and highlights this problem even further. "Sandpapering" something down isn't the point either that you have a tendency to reference. Making a pain point in the job visible is the point because it does not feel good to lose potency you didn't generate in the first place.

Hopefully DNC's Tillana gets its QoL. MNK had to deal with the issue of overcapping over no fault of their own with Brotherhood before DT. It took 3 expansions before they decided to fix what should have been an obvious issue.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

Here's the problem: It didn't change anything from EW aside from adding that nuke. There was no decision making returned back to the player that impacted DNC's performance. The only decision you got was whether you would have to waste gauge through an RNG mechanic generated by your allies during Burst - that's not decision making. That's forced. Tillana either is used during Famine to generate the 50 Gauge, or it's saved until the end. You cannot say that Saber is prioritized over Tillana if you're right at the last GCD of your burst. If you overcap? Well shit, you lost potency and has no reflection on a player's skill handling that. That's bad design. Already on activation of Technical Step we get DotD as is, so we're already going to be pressing the button anyway to dump gauge.

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You can go all passive aggressive you want and tell me I'm not reading, but it's clear you aren't either when you reply to me that Tillana didn't change anything between EW and DT. Everything that you describe is literally what I explained, and the kind of decision making you have to do on the fly in DT that was just not a thing back in EW, specifically because Tillana didn't generate any gauge and could be used whenever outside of "forced" used of Sabre as you say. There was no constraint and no friction from it, the only constraint came from Esprit generation and Sabre uses not to overcap. If you add another ability that generates (a lot of) gauge like DT Tillana, this adds a second layer of constraints to play around.

In EW Tillana didn't add any gauge so it was a no brainer to use. The only thing you wanted to do was entering burst with a lot of gauge to get more Sabres in. You can still do this in DT but this means pushing Tillana further down the line. DT Tillana is also a way to regulate bad esprit rng (especially in light parties).

But I just disagree with your definition of "decision making" because deciding between dumping gauge on Sabre or using something else like Starfall, Tillana and whatnot, is decision making on the fly to me. If that's not to you, then priority systems aren't decision making. I do agree there is a difference between choosing one of two options that aren't related to priority/triaging, and picking something that has higher priority than something else, but you won't find the former in the current pve model anyway. Both are a form of decision making and agency to me, because as soon as something requires you to think instead of blindly following a static rotation, that's agency to me.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

I feel like you're overlooking the core aspect of DNC and arguing in the wrong direction. If you're saying that it's because the player messed up something in their gauge management, which mind, is determined by their own base GCDs and ally attack GCD frequency, that's not their fault. You cannot say that this is the DNC player's fault when they have resources forced upon them by their Partner or the Party if they're already hitting their GCDs and pressing Saber to drain gauge properly. The instance in where you are saying you push out Tillana is wrong because Tillana is 600 plus the 50 Gauge in a whole GCD. That's 60 more potency than Saber draining resources under raid buff. As said above, I will repeat it again: Tillana cannot be left out of burst and at most be used at the end as the last GCD in the burst to make the most use out of potency, Gauge overcapping or not.

Every 10 Gauge overcapped is an 108 potency loss, and there's not a lot the DNC can do about that other than their own GCD and Gauge Management.

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You deal with the hand you're being dealt. How you choose to use this hand, and how to spend said variable resources, is agency, and this agency means you can mess something up. As I exposed above the probability for you to overcap as long as you dump GCD into Sabres is extremely, insanely unlikely to happen. Therefore it becomes an active decision to identify the proper spots in the burst where to use moves that don't dump any gauge.

The gauge you gain from Tillana, if used outside the burst, isn't wasted, because you already had rng providing the gauge you required to spam Sabre during burst in the first place. You say it yourself, you're losing 108 potency of Sabres per 10 gauge, which is way more than the 60 potency difference you'd get from Tillana. Using Tillana in the very last GCD of Technical/burst is as you say a lot safer already because odds of overcapping there are a lot lower since the party wide esprit generation will drop.

So I really don't see where the problem is, and if you really have to move Tillana out, then move it out?

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

I do because I played BRD during that time. RNG Spikes were nice, but let me remind you of something BRD has that DNC doesn't - Resource Generation involving oGCDs. Bloodletter? That's an oGCD that's generated by Mage's Ballad. Pitch Perfect? oGCD generated during Wanderer's Minuet. It felt good because you could continue your rotation without having to manage your GCDs down to the point it is causing a loss because you aren't spending fast enough.

DNC cannot spend fast enough if their luck is too good and they get slammed with resource generation. All of DNC's Spenders are GCD. The difference is night and day. You cannot compare Feathers either because those are self-generated. The issue I am pinpointing at, and that you have glossed over is the fact that DNC cannot control its own Gauge generation like other jobs can, and the fact we've been given a 50 Gauge Generation Tool is not helping matters due to the fluctuation of RNG when paired with a Partner plus an 8-man party. In 4-man? This is understandable because you have less generation sources during burst.

In 8-man it is insufferable because you are taking a loss if you cannot spend fast enough with a 2.5s GCD. I do not know how to make this any clearer.

Edit: One other thing - I did a quick comb over the other jobs, and guess what? They either manage their own gauge by themselves, or have set timers. That makes DNC even more of an outlier and highlights this problem even further. "Sandpapering" something down isn't the point either that you have a tendency to reference. Making a pain point in the job visible is the point because it does not feel good to lose potency you didn't generate in the first place.

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Yes it was OGCD, but the generation could be a lot crazier, especially in the later tiers with itemization, and the cap was reached a LOT faster, because PP is 3 stacks and Bloodletter still had no fucking stacks. That it was an OGCD was irrelevant because recasting the same still is 1s minimum anyway (added to the unpredictable proc refresh and no proper queue without charges): in reality you were just dealing with shorter, faster windows with the same kind of overcap concerns.

As I said above I do believe that DNC can spend fast enough because odds of generating over 50 gauge under a GCD are almost irrelevant (1%). That's why I'm saying, maybe you're the one not reading?

I do not know how to make this clearer either. If you're actually arguing that not controlling your own gauge generation is bad, then be my guest, remove it from the identity of the job and make it a standard gauge that fills up with whatever crap that comes only from the job, be it autos, GCDs, or whatever. Not like we already have jobs like this in the game right. BRD also used to not control their own gauge generation since it was rng tied to their dots. Today it's been watered down to a very boring, shadow of itself system where most ticks are predictable on a fixed 3s rate, thanks to ShB then EW.

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Originally Posted by Valence

You can go all passive aggressive you want and tell me I'm not reading, but it's clear you aren't either when you reply to me that Tillana didn't change anything between EW and DT. Everything that you describe is literally what I explained, and the kind of decision making you have to do on the fly in DT that was just not a thing back in EW, specifically because Tillana didn't generate any gauge and could be used whenever outside of "forced" used of Sabre as you say. There was no constraint and no friction from it, the only constraint came from Esprit generation and Sabre uses not to overcap. If you add another ability that generates (a lot of) gauge like DT Tillana, this adds a second layer of constraints to play around.

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And that's where we have a problem, Valence. That's what I've been trying to explain the whole time that we didn't need a second layer. As I said previously, fixed values do not work on RNG Jobs. Also, mind, that I did some digging in the forums before and I have been reading your replies during this thread. I looked at it from your point of view - and even if Tillana didn't generate gauge in EW, that wasn't a bad thing. Tillana doing that damage in EW was fine, but it only threw a wrench in things when you also have to consider that DNC's burst got busier through the addition of Last Dance. It was already busy enough during 2m Window, they didn't need to throw a wrench into a job that has RNG involved as its core mechanic since ShB. Do you think it's braindead? Probably for most DNC that play the job. If they wanted to regulate really bad Esprit RNG, then maybe that's on the DNC to be able to have resources on hand before the window? You've got Filler options and a lot to do provided you've been keeping up on Feathers, since you'd then get Tillana, Starfall, Last Dance, and your 2 Filler GCDs if things go bad - which goes without saying if you're setting up correctly, you'll have at least 30 gauge to guarantee DotD. That's 5 GCDs and half your burst window if things go bad.

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Originally Posted by Valence

But I just disagree with your definition of "decision making" because deciding between dumping gauge on Sabre or using something else like Starfall, Tillana and whatnot, is decision making on the fly to me. If that's not to you, then priority systems aren't decision making. I do agree there is a difference between choosing one of two options that aren't related to priority/triaging, and picking something that has higher priority than something else, but you won't find the former in the current pve model anyway. Both are a form of decision making and agency to me, because as soon as something requires you to think instead of blindly following a static rotation, that's agency to me.

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...that's crazy that you're disagreeing what we're agreeing on with your first sentence. The decision making is already there - we didn't need an extra component in Tillana to make things even stricter, and mind, people a year ago complained the exact same argument I'm making now. You can check back in the DPS forums for that since I saw you were involved as well.

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Originally Posted by Valence

The gauge you gain from Tillana, if used outside the burst, isn't wasted, because you already had rng providing the gauge you required to spam Sabre during burst in the first place. You say it yourself, you're losing 108 potency of Sabres per 10 gauge, which is way more than the 60 potency difference you'd get from Tillana. Using Tillana in the very last GCD of Technical/burst is as you say a lot safer already because odds of overcapping there are a lot lower since the party wide esprit generation will drop.

So I really don't see where the problem is, and if you really have to move Tillana out, then move it out?

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It's worth a try, but most times you will see people hitting it within burst window because that's where your potency goes up. I personally think it's just jarring compared to how DNC has felt in the past that you're now pushing something generated by a raid buff out when your luck is too good and it messes with the generalized idea that has been cemented for a while now to "use all your big damage in burst". You see that across just about every job and they don't struggle with this like DNC does when they're designed in DT.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Yes it was OGCD, but the generation could be a lot crazier, especially in the later tiers with itemization, and the cap was reached a LOT faster, because PP is 3 stacks and Bloodletter still had no fucking stacks. That it was an OGCD was irrelevant because recasting the same still is 1s minimum anyway (added to the unpredictable proc refresh and no proper queue without charges): in reality you were just dealing with shorter, faster windows with the same kind of overcap concerns.

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Yet, good BRDs knew at the time which song generated what, meaning they'd keep an eye out on Bloodletter resets so they can spam the crap out of it. The same was for Pitch Perfect, and knowing when to dump sub-3 stacks going into Mages. The difference between these two is you're managing one thing at a time next to your GCD depending on what song you were in - not having to manage four at once in a burst sequence. Can it be a puzzle? Perhaps, but it already was one when you had to think on managing your gauge in the first place. If you really think it's so brainless of a job, then perhaps you'd like to explain that to the populace at large when it really isn't in high-end.

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Originally Posted by Valence

As I said above I do believe that DNC can spend fast enough because odds of generating over 50 gauge under a GCD are almost irrelevant (1%). That's why I'm saying, maybe you're the one not reading?

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No, I read - but I did manage to get some second opinions on it. So, that 1% you're talking about? Let's say you're at the median which would be about 20-30 during Burst if you're having moderate generation and you just used Saber. Seeing as you're in a good spot to use Tillana, you use it right away - that leaves a 20 gauge gap if used at 30. However, consider that your comp has jobs like VPR, NIN, MNK or SAM involved. Or even a mix of any of the four(mind with only 2 Melee as standard). These three jobs have GCDs that are faster than other jobs. NIN has this by default at Lv 45. Let's say you also have the VPR or SAM set as your Partner. Considering the fact we already have reset our Standard, I forgot to add into my thoughts the extra 10 that is generated off of Standard's buff alone, which is standalone next to Technical during raid buff. So, instead of the range being 0-70, it becomes 0-80 without the player's input due to your partner double-dipping. This further cements the problem with Tillana - +50 gauge was never needed in the first place and is just tacked on while we still have the same decision-making process as you've declared multiple times. Also include that both SAM/VPR/NIN/MNK GCDs are close to 2s, and you have even more generation than normal in a standard comp. Casters such as BLM and RDM also attribute to this because of hastened GCDs during Leylines and Melee Combo during burst. Put that together, and you have a literal engine that won't stop most of the time when it comes to gauge generation.

But, to make it simple, just ignore the Casters and focus on the Melee - them alone is more than enough for gauge generation to potentially unless you have a DRG in the party filling a slot.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I do not know how to make this clearer either. If you're actually arguing that not controlling your own gauge generation is bad, then be my guest, remove it from the identity of the job and make it a standard gauge that fills up with whatever crap that comes only from the job, be it autos, GCDs, or whatever. Not like we already have jobs like this in the game right. BRD also used to not control their own gauge generation since it was rng tied to their dots. Today it's been watered down to a very boring, shadow of itself system where most ticks are predictable on a fixed 3s rate, thanks to ShB then EW.

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And that's where you're missing the point. The whole argument is about Tillana in the first place attributing +50 Gauge. It messes with DNC's burst window and while it is useful in 4-man, when it comes to 8-man it's a nuisance to use because you're generating more gauge than you can do - and even if you use it in a whole GCD, you will still get more gauge. Perhaps you'd like to tell me the chances of getting 0 gauge instead over 2 GCDs? Because that's generally the length it takes if you're managing your gauge properly during burst. Did I ever suggest that DNC should be standalone on its gauge? No. I have not. And in regards to the gauge being 'forced' before, again that is directing it all towards the reasoning why Tillana should not generate Gauge.

It. Makes. No. Sense. If I were to play the game with Tillana with the 50 Gauge removed, we would still have the same sequences but better because then you could use Tillana as a stronger filler in the burst. That's really the only thing that would change and it would not attribute towards DNC losing potency. Instead, they can direct that 540 across DNC's basic GCDs to stabilize their damage. If we're talking about opener though, I can see where the problem lies with that: DotD requires 50 gauge to use. That was the dev's intended use of Tillana being +50 Gauge - but it also harms the bursts coming after because you're either flooded with gauge or you just don't have room to deal with 2 GCDs worth of Generation to use Tillana proper. If they really wanted to, they would have DNC start with 50 Gauge upon entry of a Duty. Simple as that. It would prevent you from not being able to use DotD on opener in every case scenario. Even then, going into later bursts, you still have your Flourish filler to use if you really have to.

Speaking from the perspective of a ‘lay-dancer’ with limited experience of the minutiae of output optimisation (which ironically is who the game is designed for apparently), I do find Tilana giving gauge usually ends in overcap. It’s not even that I don’t care I just forget to dump before using it since again, limited experience lol.

But then, I can understand the perspective of ‘maybe if it’s ok since there’s ways to adjust’ argument too. The developers do have a tendency to go nuclear when it comes to these sort of things, so I can see where the worry that removing it would cause Dancer to become less engaging to optimise (which is a genuine thing jobs should have).

Then again, the real question is ‘should it be designed for people like me in the first place’ lol. Is it fair to adjust a job based on the opinions of people who like a job but don’t play it to a high level? The people in this case being me lol not making accusations.

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Originally Posted by Connor

Speaking from the perspective of a ‘lay-dancer’ with limited experience of the minutiae of output optimisation (which ironically is who the game is designed for apparently), I do find Tilana giving gauge usually ends in overcap. It’s not even that I don’t care I just forget to dump before using it since again, limited experience lol.

But then, I can understand the perspective of ‘maybe if it’s ok since there’s ways to adjust’ argument too. The developers do have a tendency to go nuclear when it comes to these sort of things, so I can see where the worry that removing it would cause Dancer to become less engaging to optimise (which is a genuine thing jobs should have).

Then again, the real question is ‘should it be designed for people like me in the first place’ lol. Is it fair to adjust a job based on the opinions of people who like a job but don’t play it to a high level? The people in this case being me lol not making accusations.

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I mean, I've been considering my argument for your end. That's a different aspect of why Tillana shouldn't add 50 gauge since most players aren't going to care whether it adds 50 or not. They'll press it during burst.

Bro I hate job oversimplification too but this is actually a good qol request. It's not interesting decision making it's bad design. If you think not fudiging a rotation to cope with a badly designed mechanic interesting decision making then you are coping over how little of that actually exists. This isn't stormblood anymore we dont have to plan or troubadour on bard or do whatever summoner did back then.

Changes where jobs actually lost skill expression was the deletion and reworking of that button that converted sen to kenki. The loss of Dragoons entire gauge and eyes from stormblood. Black mage having timers, tank aggro being made way easier to manage.

Making tillana grant "skilll ready" like arcane circle or ikoshoten just makes sense and makes learning different dps feel more intuitive. Jobs shouldn't feel identical but jobs within a role should have fundamentals they can share.

Example people were mad all tanks have gap closer cuz it made dark knight less special but the role as a whole is objectively better with gap closer si ce it's good for grouping mobs in dungeons and reposistiong the boss in time.

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Originally Posted by Reginald_Cain

Bro I hate job oversimplification too but this is actually a good qol request. It's not interesting decision making it's bad design. If you think not fudiging a rotation to cope with a badly designed mechanic interesting decision making then you are coping over how little of that actually exists. This isn't stormblood anymore we dont have to plan or troubadour on bard or do whatever summoner did back then.

Changes where jobs actually lost skill expression was the deletion and reworking of that button that converted sen to kenki. The loss of Dragoons entire gauge and eyes from stormblood. Black mage having timers, tank aggro being made way easier to manage.

Making tillana grant "skilll ready" like arcane circle or ikoshoten just makes sense and makes learning different dps feel more intuitive. Jobs shouldn't feel identical but jobs within a role should have fundamentals they can share.

Example people were mad all tanks have gap closer cuz it made dark knight less special but the role as a whole is objectively better with gap closer si ce it's good for grouping mobs in dungeons and reposistiong the boss in time.

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See, I don't agree with that because we have the Buff Cap to consider. Either SE fixes that Buff Cap, or you need to think in a different way than applying an extra buff - not to mention, Saber changes to DotD - that's going to eat up a GCD to free up your gauge spender.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

And that's where we have a problem, Valence. That's what I've been trying to explain the whole time that we didn't need a second layer. As I said previously, fixed values do not work on RNG Jobs. Also, mind, that I did some digging in the forums before and I have been reading your replies during this thread. I looked at it from your point of view - and even if Tillana didn't generate gauge in EW, that wasn't a bad thing. Tillana doing that damage in EW was fine, but it only threw a wrench in things when you also have to consider that DNC's burst got busier through the addition of Last Dance. It was already busy enough during 2m Window, they didn't need to throw a wrench into a job that has RNG involved as its core mechanic since ShB. Do you think it's braindead? Probably for most DNC that play the job. If they wanted to regulate really bad Esprit RNG, then maybe that's on the DNC to be able to have resources on hand before the window? You've got Filler options and a lot to do provided you've been keeping up on Feathers, since you'd then get Tillana, Starfall, Last Dance, and your 2 Filler GCDs if things go bad - which goes without saying if you're setting up correctly, you'll have at least 30 gauge to guarantee DotD. That's 5 GCDs and half your burst window if things go bad.

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If you dug some forum history (you have a lot of time on your hands...) that's very possible you found one of my posts saying DNC was braindead because I do think it was very brainless in EW. Braindead idk, but brainless sure. Have enough gauge for Sabre? Pop Sabre under burst, that's about it. Very little to prioritize in burst, and the only optimization you could potentially keep doing was spooling Feathers and gauge for burst, that's about it. Compared to ShB and DT, I think that yes, EW DNC was really pushing it and only SMN managed to beat that job when it came to complexity. That's also why I didn't play it at high level back then, it felt like a snoozefest.

I wouldn't mind if we had to spool enough gauge before the burst to ensure DotD actually - even though you'd honestly rack enough esprit during Technical that it would be irrelevant anyway. Which you can still do anyway, just that once you enter into burst your next move is going to be DotD immediately to dump gauge. But yeah, I'd miss that second layer of priorities after. I'd agree though that it would still be more complex than what we had in EW precisely because there is more neutral nukes to fit in, like Last Dance and Finishing, so this definitely implies more gauge dancing.

Honestly as I said earlier in this thread I'm not fully satisfied with what Tillana does but I have no idea how to fix it without bringing something else in return to keep the burst interesting. Perhaps if Tillana instead actually consumed gauge for something awesome in return idk.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

It's worth a try, but most times you will see people hitting it within burst window because that's where your potency goes up. I personally think it's just jarring compared to how DNC has felt in the past that you're now pushing something generated by a raid buff out when your luck is too good and it messes with the generalized idea that has been cemented for a while now to "use all your big damage in burst". You see that across just about every job and they don't struggle with this like DNC does when they're designed in DT.

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Like I said, I'm pretty certain that keeping it for the very last GCD of Technical is a good safety to use since esprit generation will drop back to normal just after. Unfortunately I've retired from raiding and I have a very difficult time trying it enough because in normal content people just facepull without countdowns and Finishing always ends up occupying the last slot unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

Yet, good BRDs knew at the time which song generated what, meaning they'd keep an eye out on Bloodletter resets so they can spam the crap out of it. The same was for Pitch Perfect, and knowing when to dump sub-3 stacks going into Mages. The difference between these two is you're managing one thing at a time next to your GCD depending on what song you were in - not having to manage four at once in a burst sequence. Can it be a puzzle? Perhaps, but it already was one when you had to think on managing your gauge in the first place. If you really think it's so brainless of a job, then perhaps you'd like to explain that to the populace at large when it really isn't in high-end.

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What is brainless? BRD? Which BRD? SB, SHB, EW, DT?

I don't think any of those is to be honest, and I've played one of the easiest iterations for the entirety of Endwalker in raiding. I think it's one of the most demanding rphys, and used to be a lot more than it was when songs were still on 30s with unpredictable procs. The burst was easier before EW, but the overall management was a lot harder and demanding your constant attention. And most of all, the difficulty of BRD is that you're constantly fighting the design junk of the job, between no charge empyreal, horrible clipping, or how Army's Ethos feels almsot tighter than SB MCH overheat windows. Those have been addressed in another thread by Sana Cetonis already though.

I will also fully admit that I have a very easy time with priority systems and non deterministic rotations (as long as I have my full attention to devote to them), and that's why I play those jobs in the first place. I know a lot of players that don't want to even touch those jobs because to them it's galaxybrain.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

No, I read - but I did manage to get some second opinions on it. So, that 1% you're talking about? Let's say you're at the median which would be about 20-30 during Burst if you're having moderate generation and you just used Saber. Seeing as you're in a good spot to use Tillana, you use it right away - that leaves a 20 gauge gap if used at 30. However, consider that your comp has jobs like VPR, NIN, MNK or SAM involved. Or even a mix of any of the four(mind with only 2 Melee as standard). These three jobs have GCDs that are faster than other jobs. NIN has this by default at Lv 45. Let's say you also have the VPR or SAM set as your Partner. Considering the fact we already have reset our Standard, I forgot to add into my thoughts the extra 10 that is generated off of Standard's buff alone, which is standalone next to Technical during raid buff. So, instead of the range being 0-70, it becomes 0-80 without the player's input due to your partner double-dipping. This further cements the problem with Tillana - +50 gauge was never needed in the first place and is just tacked on while we still have the same decision-making process as you've declared multiple times. Also include that both SAM/VPR/NIN/MNK GCDs are close to 2s, and you have even more generation than normal in a standard comp. Casters such as BLM and RDM also attribute to this because of hastened GCDs during Leylines and Melee Combo during burst. Put that together, and you have a literal engine that won't stop most of the time when it comes to gauge generation.

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30 gauge of margin starts getting you into serious consideration for overcap (5-8%), and once you're lower than this this actually ramps up pretty steep. Like I said I don't have clear solutions for this without losing what I consider interesting about it.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

It. Makes. No. Sense. If I were to play the game with Tillana with the 50 Gauge removed, we would still have the same sequences but better because then you could use Tillana as a stronger filler in the burst. That's really the only thing that would change and it would not attribute towards DNC losing potency. Instead, they can direct that 540 across DNC's basic GCDs to stabilize their damage. If we're talking about opener though, I can see where the problem lies with that: DotD requires 50 gauge to use. That was the dev's intended use of Tillana being +50 Gauge - but it also harms the bursts coming after because you're either flooded with gauge or you just don't have room to deal with 2 GCDs worth of Generation to use Tillana proper. If they really wanted to, they would have DNC start with 50 Gauge upon entry of a Duty. Simple as that. It would prevent you from not being able to use DotD on opener in every case scenario. Even then, going into later bursts, you still have your Flourish filler to use if you really have to.

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Whatever you say then. Makes sense to me and no, the sequence consideration would become simplified since you'd use Tillana like any other basic, fixed nuke. I don't like those much and the only thing that keeps them even remotely interesting in the burst is that you have to balance them out with Sabres. But perhaps that would be enough, I'm not gonna die over that hill.

If the 50 gauge was removed, then I'd like to have something else in return for the job.

Dancer was designed to be an easy simon says jobs to get people to play phys ranged. I feel like asking dancer to be more engaging is a fair request valence as it's been 2 expansions now. Still I think that should be addressed at an expansion launch. As far as the buff cap goes im pretty sure it was only a big issue in TOP and p8s no? The fact we can reach the buff/debuff limit at all is a huge failure by the devs. It shouldn't even be something players have to consider.

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Originally Posted by Connor

Speaking from the perspective of a ‘lay-dancer’ with limited experience of the minutiae of output optimisation (which ironically is who the game is designed for apparently), I do find Tilana giving gauge usually ends in overcap. It’s not even that I don’t care I just forget to dump before using it since again, limited experience lol.

But then, I can understand the perspective of ‘maybe if it’s ok since there’s ways to adjust’ argument too. The developers do have a tendency to go nuclear when it comes to these sort of things, so I can see where the worry that removing it would cause Dancer to become less engaging to optimise (which is a genuine thing jobs should have).

Then again, the real question is ‘should it be designed for people like me in the first place’ lol. Is it fair to adjust a job based on the opinions of people who like a job but don’t play it to a high level? The people in this case being me lol not making accusations.

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Honestly as someone who plays DNC at a high level, the tillana thing isn't a huge inconvenience and it's fine to play around (aka trying to use it when I'm super low on gauge and just eating the gauge loss if it means fitting tilana inside of burst) but it's just annoying.

I really don't think that changing it into a buff instead of 50 gauge is going to make the job "more braindead" than it already is because people on the low end will smash it blindly like they always have, and people on the high end will smash it within burst window like they always have and get the tiniest bit of damage out of the gauge they didn't lose. In my opinion, the only situation where the gauge lost really matters is in specific comps in high-end content where you just roll like a god on RNG and get a million procs a second and your damage numbers actually matter, but no one in that kind of situation is playing the job at a rudimentary enough level for you to consider them a casual by any means and they probably have a million other things on their minds and ways to express skill like doing mechanics and doing weird ss alignment/uptime things depending on the fight.

With all that being said, I think the only possible excuse for DNC not having tillana give a buff like RDM manafication instead of 50 gauge is maaaybe the buff cap, and even then I'm more inclined to believe it was an oversight when tillana was changed probably later in DT's development. Why they haven't fixed it all these patches is beyond me - Maybe they're gonna change it again in 8.0. If they aren't, I think they should just give it the buff treatment like manafication so people who care can be less annoyed during burst, and people who don't care/notice can keep playing the way they were going to play anyways. It's just a QoL thing.

Also I can't be bothered digging through the ongoing argument in this thread but overcapping on gauge with or without tillana even when you do everything perfectly is entirely possible and very dependant on RNG and other factors like whether you have a MNK or whatever. Sometimes you just go into burst with 45 gauge and you literally can't burn it before techstep is back up. Sometimes you just roll and get every single proc between GCDs, or during one of the two GCDs you have to reserve early in burst for last dance and finishing move if you don't want to/can't/shouldn't drift them. Sometimes you don't have time to burn gauge because of a phase/arena transition where the boss becomes untargetable but you have to start techstep early to align with the party.

No matter what you do on DNC, you'll probably overcap. Things happen and it's disingenuous to lump it all into a skill issue. The least they could do is make our lives a little easier by tweaking tillana so it doesn't contribute to the problem.

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Originally Posted by Liyinabi

With all that being said, I think the only possible excuse for DNC not having tillana give a buff like RDM manafication instead of 50 gauge is maaaybe the buff cap, and even then I'm more inclined to believe it was an oversight when tillana was changed probably later in DT's development. Why they haven't fixed it all these patches is beyond me - Maybe they're gonna change it again in 8.0. If they aren't, I think they should just give it the buff treatment like manafication so people who care can be less annoyed during burst, and people who don't care/notice can keep playing the way they were going to play anyways. It's just a QoL thing.

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Someone in this thread mentioned doubling the Esprit cap while under Technical Finish which would not add another buff. It would just be an additional effect under the Technical Finish buff just like how MNK's doubling of the Chakra cap effect is under the Brotherhood buff.

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Originally Posted by Reginald_Cain

Dancer was designed to be an easy simon says jobs to get people to play phys ranged. I feel like asking dancer to be more engaging is a fair request valence as it's been 2 expansions now. Still I think that should be addressed at an expansion launch. As far as the buff cap goes im pretty sure it was only a big issue in TOP and p8s no? The fact we can reach the buff/debuff limit at all is a huge failure by the devs. It shouldn't even be something players have to consider.

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That's what people think until they actually got to optimize it in ShB. It wasn't a hard job by any means but there was a lot of overwriting you had to avoid back then, and also melee phases during burst. Compared to ShB MCH which was frankly super basic (just more apm), it wasn't actually really easier. So saying it was meant to be a simon says job is only at the surface level because it just happened to have a very accessible skill floor. That's why I argued above it only became that easy last expansion, because the job got dumbed down hardcore with a lot of QoL changes which removed all of the proc overwriting concerns notably from Flourish (and also the melee in burst to make room for nukes, so less overwriting too there).

I'm not saying this as someone that necessarily wanted to keep the overwriting on the job though, and I didn't even play it much back then to have thoughts about it anyway.

Yeah it's funny that people say it was designed as an easy job. You have 25 jobs you can play with the exact same state of mind and mental capacity, since they're all based on perfectly static rotations with no variation.

Then you have one that is still 91.5% static but has some proc-based elements at least, and somehow that's the easy job now?! As if Static Rotation as a job design paradigm isn't nowadays rarely used because it's innate downside of being disengagingly easy to play if not perfected just right? Like, see Samurai, Black Mage, Summoner, whatever, any other DPS job basically and you find the same rote "Stanley sat in his office all day, pressing buttons"-"gameplay" (in the losest sense of the word) there, with no brain activity needed, just muscle-memory how your finger moves where. If flipping the pages of a book while reading is more demanding as "gameplay" (since the page-reading speed will vary with each page read!) than playing your damage job, you kinda get a hint maybe the damage job isn't all that well-designed now, right?

Dancer is one of the few ones that positively spends out from actually wanting the player to use at least a tiny portion of their brain while playing. It's a giant shame and frankly an insult to the playerbase that damage jobs aren't massively based on procs, random income/expenses and branching combat paths with maybe 1 job per type being "the static one", usually the purest damage dealer traditionally. The gameplay of damage jobs could be so much more involved if it weren't all static rotation type jobs. And I mean, even Dancer kinda is. The procs amount of to horrendously little considering how central they are. But they change quite little about the actual gameplay since everything still has to align to a 120s cycle, sadly.

I don't understand how this is an issue. If you have so much gauge coming in, then use it. I've never had an issue with an overabundance of gauge coming in that I can't handle it from any of my EX or Savage runs.

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Originally Posted by animeking

I don't understand how this is an issue. If you have so much gauge coming in, then use it. I've never had an issue with an overabundance of gauge coming in that I can't handle it from any of my EX or Savage runs.

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I mean in general I agree. Or rather I think that any gauge system that cannot either (or ideally both):
* Overflow, wasting resource generation.
* Starve, breaking combos due to lack of resource to continue them.

Is pointless and should be removed. If your gauge has no actual effect on your gameplay sequence, there's no point having it.

Tillana is kinda odd though, because they added this effect later, and for no reason. Seemingly forgetting the effect Technical already has.

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Originally Posted by animeking

I don't understand how this is an issue. If you have so much gauge coming in, then use it. I've never had an issue with an overabundance of gauge coming in that I can't handle it from any of my EX or Savage runs.

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Like I mentioned earlier, there's a few GCDs within early techstep that you have to reserve for last dance/finishing move if you don't want to drift standard step. Sometimes you end up having to overcap near the end of tech to fit starfall dance or tillana in since not using both during buff window is a damage loss. In my own savage runs, sometimes my gauge just procs like crazy and I literally have to overcap, so a tillana change would at least make it more manageable. Not to mention how annoying it is to have to throw tillana out and forcefully overcap right before mechs where ranged are far away till the end of burst window like FRU p2's mirrors. Depending on your RNG later in technical step in those situations, the whole tillana giving 50 gauge thing can end up being a damage loss because you lose out on a saber dance or two.

It's not that the gauge is unmanageable, it's just inconvenient and tillana giving gauge in the same expansion where they specifically gave other jobs buffs/changes to help with overcapping seems like a huge oversight.

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Originally Posted by nguyentri11

Someone in this thread mentioned doubling the Esprit cap while under Technical Finish which would not add another buff. It would just be an additional effect under the Technical Finish buff just like how MNK's doubling of the Chakra cap effect is under the Brotherhood buff.

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Yeah that would be ideal, no need for a buff and you have some room to breathe during burst.

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Originally Posted by Valence

That's what people think until they actually got to optimize it in ShB. It wasn't a hard job by any means but there was a lot of overwriting you had to avoid back then, and also melee phases during burst. Compared to ShB MCH which was frankly super basic (just more apm), it wasn't actually really easier. So saying it was meant to be a simon says job is only at the surface level because it just happened to have a very accessible skill floor. That's why I argued above it only became that easy last expansion, because the job got dumbed down hardcore with a lot of QoL changes which removed all of the proc overwriting concerns notably from Flourish (and also the melee in burst to make room for nukes, so less overwriting too there).

I'm not saying this as someone that necessarily wanted to keep the overwriting on the job though, and I didn't even play it much back then to have thoughts about it anyway.

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Don't remind me of how much I loved going into melee to use blood shower on single target :( why'd that take it away.

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Originally Posted by Reginald_Cain

Don't remind me of how much I loved going into melee to use blood shower on single target :( why'd that take it away.

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To make room for 2min nukes.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

I mean in general I agree. Or rather I think that any gauge system that cannot either (or ideally both):
* Overflow, wasting resource generation.
* Starve, breaking combos due to lack of resource to continue them.

Is pointless and should be removed. If your gauge has no actual effect on your gameplay sequence, there's no point having it.

Tillana is kinda odd though, because they added this effect later, and for no reason. Seemingly forgetting the effect Technical already has.

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It is required for lower parties or even solo else you wouldn't be able to use DotD reliably or at all in the first opener. However they could have made it like a lot of other jobs: use Tillana, get a free use of Sabre/DotD. That would have definitely prevented all of those debates around it. More boring, but definitely what I'd have expected the devs to do with their track record. Playing it safe.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nguyentri11

Someone in this thread mentioned doubling the Esprit cap while under Technical Finish which would not add another buff. It would just be an additional effect under the Technical Finish buff just like how MNK's doubling of the Chakra cap effect is under the Brotherhood buff.

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Why not just add it to the "Enhanced Technical Finish II trait" ?


Before -

Enhanced Technical Finish II (Lv. 100) - Grants Dance of the Dawn Ready upon executing Technical Finish.


After -

Enhanced Technical Finish II (Lv. 100) - Grants Dance of the Dawn Ready upon executing Technical Finish. Increases Maximum Esprit to 150 while under the effects of Technical Finish.

I haven't had the opportunity to play the job down to the bone in actual raiding like I have with MCH and BRD, but I've played it regularly in various content and especially this expansion, and I'm gonna double down on my initial take, I'd hate to see the 50 gauge Tillana gone for the reason I exposed. I like juggling with this, sorry not sorry. It really informs what series of abilities you're going to use when getting into Technical depending on your gauge level, and then how it procs up. Just by the entry alone in Technical, very low gauge <20/30, safe to Tillana immediately, above 50, just DotD, between you can for example spend the Last Dance ready to wait for more gauge and DotD. If nothing happens for whatever reason (light party, solo), you can even use the Flourish procs to gauge up and DotD safely.

This wouldnt even be a mental exercise with an auto/free DotD proc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Valence

I haven't had the opportunity to play the job down to the bone in actual raiding like I have with MCH and BRD, but I've played it regularly in various content and especially this expansion, and I'm gonna double down on my initial take, I'd hate to see the 50 gauge Tillana gone for the reason I exposed. I like juggling with this, sorry not sorry. It really informs what series of abilities you're going to use when getting into Technical depending on your gauge level, and then how it procs up. Just by the entry alone in Technical, very low gauge <20/30, safe to Tillana immediately, above 50, just DotD, between you can for example spend the Last Dance ready to wait for more gauge and DotD. If nothing happens for whatever reason (light party, solo), you can even use the Flourish procs to gauge up and DotD safely.

This wouldnt even be a mental exercise with an auto/free DotD proc.

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I've had the opportunity to play DNC in all content that has released this expansion, from normals up to ultimate. The mental exercise is a complete pain when combined with situational downtime and a full party of high-end raiders mashing their buttons.We really don't need it

The change also made Endwalker legacy ultimates kind of awkward because now you have to hard standard step in the middle of burst windows to not drop standard finish since tillana no longer refreshes the buff time, and the fights weren't built with that in mind so it just feels awful. Standard stepping before burst isn't always an option due to forced downtime, phase transitions, cutscenes, 2 min alignment, etc etc.

I can see 50 gauge tillana not being an issue in normal content, but the more high-end content I do with it the more I hate it and want it changed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Liyinabi

I've had the opportunity to play DNC in all content that has released this expansion, from normals up to ultimate. The mental exercise is a complete pain when combined with situational downtime and a full party of high-end raiders mashing their buttons.We really don't need it

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Its wild how much my experience doing savage prog and farm with DNC differs from that, I actively brought the job because of how carefree and easygoing it is. Yes it has multiple - albeit individually very very minor - elements of actually good class design that frankly all FFXIV jobs ought to have in spades so we could have interesting class designs.

But really, some coinflip procs, two unreliable-income resources that are both non-crucial to the gameplay loop... that's not exactly a lot. Very simple class design. I guess it goes to show how samey and mind-numbing the other classes all being full static rotation is, that by comparison Dancer feels so "busy" in comparison to some?

Tirana should refresh standard finish buff. Idk why tf it doesn't. As far as the overcapping goes it's 50/50 . It would be a nice qol change for some and a braindeadification for the player who like playing around with kit friction. I feel like they should make Tirana not overcap because they took away my reaper gauge management from plentiful harvest and my inner villain wants to make my fellow forum lurkers car and val suffer my pain. XD