So we all agree plunge needs to comeback?

I get not wanting to spam gap closer into burst windows but we had the hotbar space for plunge AND shadow stride. They can give it a longer cooldown and more damage if they want as well. I'd also want the same treatment for rough divide.

Side note but anyone else think it's weird abyssal drain isn't that third aoe gcd in our combo that heals us like souleater?

Using Unmend should give you a buff that transforms Shadowstride into Plunge that deals damage.

If you query 10 different DRK players on what they want this job to be you will get 15 different opinions, so I don't think you can make blanket statements like "we all agree".

I don't think plunge needs to come back, the job is fine without it, but I'm 100% in for this:

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Originally Posted by mallleable

Using Unmend should give you a buff that transforms Shadowstride into Plunge that deals damage.

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As the third out of 10 DRK players, I agree that Plunge needs to come back in some form.

Plunge should come back, but Shadowstride should also stay. All tanks should have something like Shadowstride in addition to their old classic gap closer. Movement utility doesn't all need to be tied in to damage rotation.

I like the unmend transforming shadowstride to plunge idea. They can literally just fix the crappy enhanced unmend trait.

Either that or add it to a new 3 part combo.

Job may be fine without Plunge, but it would be much better with it.

And new animations for the main combo.

Let us have an option to pick. Can use plunge with unmend trait giving plung either an ability to reduce a cooldown of flood/edge or let us shadow, and the unmend trait on it reduces the skill speed of our next 1-2-3 or deliruim combo

As much as I like plunge as a animation it's weird this is what you want back out of all the animations.

Like power slash exists people... Though frankly I would like Dark knight to get a bit more GCD depth as it really lacks anything to do outside of burst windows currently in my opinion.

No, DRK already has a gapcloser. Changing it is completely pointless.

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Originally Posted by Mercury_Grey

Let us have an option to pick. Can use plunge with unmend trait giving plung either an ability to reduce a cooldown of flood/edge or let us shadow, and the unmend trait on it reduces the skill speed of our next 1-2-3 or deliruim combo

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Unironically old blood weapon used to give skill speed and mana for your next 5 gcds lol

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Originally Posted by Reginald_Cain

Unironically old blood weapon used to give skill speed and mana for your next 5 gcds lol

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You're mixing up two different versions of Blood Weapon.

Before Shadowbringers it gave you 10% haste (affecting weaponskills, spells and auto attacks), MP regeneration on any physical damage you dealt and 3 blood for every physical attack for 15 seconds every 40 seconds. The MP per hit was only 480 but included all physical damage, this also meant auto attacks and oGCDs.

This got reduced to just giving you 10 blood and 600 MP on every weaponskill for 10 seconds every 60 seconds in Shadowbringers (which was effectively 5 hits if you had good ping). No more haste, less duration, longer cooldown, actually less MP regeneration.
Which then got changed to a stack system of 5 weaponskills within 15 seconds in Endwalker (mainly to fix the ping issue people had before).

And then we get to Dawntrail, where nothing really changed about the effect itself, it just went from 5 stacks down to 3 when it was combined with Delirium, saving you a button press but costing you 1200 MP every minute compared to before.

As if reducing the MP generation by -1200MP per minute thanks to 3 stacks of Bloodweapon wasnt bad enough... the supposed "Living Shadow no longer costs blood" only leads to a single extra Bloodspiller per 10 MINUTES.

Lost cooler versions of Bloodweapon, lost any and all Blood management, lost Plunge management (yes, you could hold stacks and not just toss it into a raid buff, the difference was NEGLIGIBLE)... and then people even want the last bit of MP management gone by removing MP cost from TBN.

To hell with that.

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Originally Posted by Atreus

Plunge should come back, but Shadowstride should also stay. All tanks should have something like Shadowstride in addition to their old classic gap closer. Movement utility doesn't all need to be tied in to damage rotation.

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"B-But muh button bloat!" *unintelligible screaming.*
Joking aside. I never thought about this. Your idea would fix the class flow, and stop it from still feeling like a level 60 class in level 70 content.
Or the devs can do the easy thing and uncouple C&S from Abyssal Drain, and adjust AD to 30 seconds. But based on how current 7.0 from 7.4 is going, yeaah, that's not going to be happening because they don't care enough to do it right now.

The thing is, they cant argue button bloat when PLD exists.

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Originally Posted by Derio

The thing is, they cant argue button bloat when PLD exists.

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They can't argue button bloat when [Combos] exist in general. There would be nothing wrong folding Royal Authority combo / Prominence combo neatly into one button (or at least giving us the OPTION to do so) similar to PvP. They already do that with Red Mage AOE combo, Gnashing Fang combo, Lionheart combo... because there is realistically little reason to not just input 123 unless there is hyper specific scenarios to 1-2-1-2. In that case you can have a single [Fast Blade] key to reset the combo.

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Originally Posted by Launched

No, DRK already has a gapcloser. Changing it is completely pointless.

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Plunge used to be DRK's gap closer, bro...

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Originally Posted by Brandr

Plunge used to be DRK's gap closer, bro...

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And even then... WAR has two. Primal Rend, by all intents and purposes, is a gap closer that you can time pretty well. Same with Dragoon. So I don't even get the idea that a job can't have two dashes.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

And even then... WAR has two. Primal Rend, by all intents and purposes, is a gap closer that you can time pretty well. Same with Dragoon. So I don\\'t even get the idea that a job can\\'t have two dashes.

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I completely agree with you

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

They can't argue button bloat when [Combos] exist in general. There would be nothing wrong folding Royal Authority combo / Prominence combo neatly into one button (or at least giving us the OPTION to do so) similar to PvP. They already do that with Red Mage AOE combo, Gnashing Fang combo, Lionheart combo... because there is realistically little reason to not just input 123 unless there is hyper specific scenarios to 1-2-1-2. In that case you can have a single [Fast Blade] key to reset the combo.

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As an option, sure.

But having recently picked up Viper again I found the 1-button combo to be actively detrimental.
I usually remember where I am in my rotation by which key I just hit and when they're all the same key I have to look at my hotbar significantly more often than on other jobs.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

As an option, sure.

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Yeah, making it optional is the idea, just like how we have the ability to transform certain actions into new actions (High Jump -> Mirage Dive), but allowing you to use them separately.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

As an option, sure.

But having recently picked up Viper again I found the 1-button combo to be actively detrimental.
I usually remember where I am in my rotation by which key I just hit and when they're all the same key I have to look at my hotbar significantly more often than on other jobs.

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There are a few tricks to help us with that.

Increasing the size of the Viper unique UI, the one with the two swords and placing it at the center south of your screen so even with your eyes focused elsewhere, you'll always see it with your peripheral vision.

Another way is reminding the current combo is always the inverse of the last one.
If the last combo was right-right-right, current one will be left-left-left, next one will be right-left-right, left-right-left, right-right-right.

I associate buttons to function and will also have issues if they forced 1-button combos. VPR does somewhat alleviate this by having a follow-up oGCD every third combo, but I still occasionally lose track after having to use anything else.

If, for example, each step of DRK's main combo recovered the same amount of mp, hp, and blood gauge then I would have no issue with it being a single button since I can always expect to get all that every time I press that button.

As of right now RPR's would be the only one that would be fine, since none of them have positionals and each hit fills 10 gauge.

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Originally Posted by Avorie

"B-But muh button bloat!" *unintelligible screaming.*
Joking aside. I never thought about this. Your idea would fix the class flow, and stop it from still feeling like a level 60 class in level 70 content.
Or the devs can do the easy thing and uncouple C&S from Abyssal Drain, and adjust AD to 30 seconds. But based on how current 7.0 from 7.4 is going, yeaah, that's not going to be happening because they don't care enough to do it right now.

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Leaning into the button bloat joke though, peoples' idea of Unmend combo'ing into Plunge would be a good way to handle Shadowstride becoming Plunge conditionally. Same with Hypervelocity > Rough Divine and whatever would be a PLD equivalent in the future.

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Originally Posted by Atreus

Leaning into the button bloat joke though, peoples' idea of Unmend combo'ing into Plunge would be a good way to handle Shadowstride becoming Plunge conditionally. Same with Hypervelocity > Rough Divine and whatever would be a PLD equivalent in the future.

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Functionally PLD doesn't (wouldn't) need it since you can always cast Holy Spirit when you have to dip out of melee for a single GCD, even without divine might it's 400p on demand.

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Originally Posted by Terhix

Functionally PLD doesn't (wouldn't) need it since you can always cast Holy Spirit when you have to dip out of melee for a single GCD, even without divine might it's 400p on demand.

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? That's really not the point. Again, movement utility doesn't all need to be tied to damage.

Honestly if they'd remove the damage from PLD's they may as well just remove the gap closer altogether. Would be better a trade-off for having the best disengagement tool in the role

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Originally Posted by Azurarok

Honestly if they'd remove the damage from PLD's they may as well just remove the gap closer altogether. Would be better a trade-off for having the best disengagement tool in the role

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No. For a multitude of reasons, one of which being we already had that era and it's called Stormblood.

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Originally Posted by Atreus

? That's really not the point. Again, movement utility doesn't all need to be tied to damage.

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What is the point then? Unmend granting you Plunge means you can do 150p GCD + 150p oGCD so a single GCD melee downtime is less punishing. On PLD if you plan Divine Might a single GCD melee downtime doesn't cost you dps at all (sans auto), and even if you don't plan for it casted Holy Spirit is still stronger than Unmend+Plunge. If PLD got a zero-damage gapcloser replacement for Intervene you can't really give it the same or even similar conditional: Shield Lob into Intervene would be a dps loss, and Holy Spirit into Intervene you'd still do in melee since Holy Spirit is part of the rotation.

I mean yeah, Plunge looks cool. But in the current context it's just not a high priority.

I mean I wish were at a point where the class design as a whole, tank design specifically or Dark Knight design in particular were remotely well off enough for Plunge or its absence to find space on the docket. 😅