About That Locker

Is it just me or does someone on the writing team not like queer people? Doesn't happen very often since there aren't many LGBT NPCs in the MSQ, but it seems like any time they reveal a male character's definitely gay or bi it's to show how creepy he is. Japanese Haurchefant makes those weird comments to the WOL, most of the awful things we see Asahi do are to impress Zenos, and now there's that joke they added with Demetrius.

Considering Ryne and Gaia exist, I don't really think that at all.

I also don't think they particularly say the characters are "definitely gay or bi" at all either- it's just written that it's plausible that they are.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

Considering Ryne and Gaia exist, I don't really think that at all.

I also don't think they particularly say the characters are "definitely gay or bi" at all either- it's just written that it's plausible that they are.

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It's something I've noticed with the men specifically. "Definitely" might be stretching it a little but I mean there's no other good explanation for why they act that way.

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Originally Posted by StormChase

It's something I've noticed with the men specifically. "Definitely" might be stretching it a little but I mean there's no other good explanation for why they act that way.

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I think some villains are just written to be psychopaths, and their behavior speaks more to that than suggesting their sexuality. Some villains are just complete fanboys of the bigger villain and that's about all there is to it. I don't think either example was written as commentary on LGBT people.

I definitely think it's just you thinking something that's not really there to begin with.

Obsessions like that don't have to be romantic-level at all, especially sycophantic-like followers that are exactly that toward their idols.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

I think some villains are just written to be psychopaths, and their behavior speaks more to that than suggesting their sexuality. Some villains are just complete fanboys of the bigger villain and that's about all there is to it. I don't think either example was written as commentary on LGBT people.

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Even if Demetrius doesn't say he's into Calyx I think it's clear what conclusion they want us to make when we find his locker. Whoever put it in probably wasn't intentionally trying to be homophobic but it's such a common trope that they might've not even noticed they were doing it.

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Originally Posted by StormChase

Even if Demetrius doesn't say he's into Calyx I think it's clear what conclusion they want us to make when we find his locker. Whoever put it in probably wasn't intentionally trying to be homophobic but it's such a common trope that they might've not even noticed they were doing it.

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Isn't Calyx supposed to have been very young? I forget his age but wasn't he a child prodigy? I would think we'd have more serious problems if we were supposed to reach this as romantic.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

Isn't Calyx supposed to have been very young? I forget his age but wasn't he a child prodigy? I would think we'd have more serious problems if we were supposed to reach this as romantic.

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I think that's part of the joke.

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Originally Posted by StormChase

I think that's part of the joke.

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I think that's where we differ. I more view the relationship as idolatry - something we see in a lot of different media with similarly-written villains.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

I think that's where we differ. I more view the relationship as idolatry - something we see in a lot of different media with similarly-written villains.

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Same. The scene just struck me as the dude being a Calyx superfan.

Sounds like you're reaching to me

Not once did i ever see asahi having romantic interest in zenos either lol

No hate to the OP but im pretty sure this is one of the most LGBTQ+ positive games out there right now, as far as whats in the main stream. Could be wrong though I guess since there is VR chat and second life.

I didn't know they'd revealed anyone's relationship interests hardly. Usually, only time they have is when they've clearly been married like Chai-Nuzz. They avoid getting into the subject so that you can use your imagination, and focus on what matters: the fight we are tackling against whatever threats we face.

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Originally Posted by Ephremjlm

No hate to the OP but im pretty sure this is one of the most LGBTQ+ positive games out there right now, as far as whats in the main stream. Could be wrong though I guess since there is VR chat and second life.

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I'd say it's a mixed bag. Players can get gay married but canon LGBT NPCs are pretty few and far between, and sometimes it feels like the explicit or more strongly implied NPCs are the butt of a joke. To be fair the MSQ in particular doesn't focus much on romantic relationships, but when it does they're almost always if not always straight.

If you read the notes you see that he's totally obsessed with Calyx for how brilliant he is. He admires him not loves him.
Its fanboying obsession, not Romance.

Sometimes, there isn't reason to be screaming accusations against a dev team.
Not everything needs to be political or oppression against a minority group/exclusion, Otherwise we end up with Netflix Bingo and it becomes forced and disingenuous pandering.

I don't think anything says that locker belonged to Demetrius? The data pad nearby has a journal entry stating the owner had a meeting with Demetrius.

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Originally Posted by Sililos

If you read the notes you see that he's totally obsessed with Calyx for how brilliant he is. He admires him not loves him.
Its fanboying obsession, not Romance.

Sometimes, there isn't reason to be screaming accusations against a dev team.
Not everything needs to be political or oppression against a minority group/exclusion, Otherwise we end up with Netflix Bingo and it becomes forced and disingenuous pandering.

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Not gonna lie, If it weren't for the second paragraph I'd think you're being sincere.

LGBT didn't even cross my mind when opening that locker. I just figured it was some creepy obsession with Calyx and I just closed it thinking "I don't even want to know." It could of been pictures of anyone in there and my reaction would of been the same.

OP, I understand where you're coming from, but I truly think you're seeing romance where there is none, like, not even close.


What you're looking at is obsession, idolatry and unhealthy attachment patterns in the case of Demetrius, Asahi, Zenos, etc.
One could consider Zenos as having a romantic undertone if you like, it's up to personal interpretation. But the rest of them never expressed even a vaguely romantic interest in the object of their obsession, not even in the slightest.


If you consider this to be expressions of love, I am genuinely worried for you. Please keep an eye out for red flags in IRL relationships, none of this is actually love or even attraction.


I'd also be more worried about Demetrius being attracted to a literal dying child. There's more messed up things in there than being a creepy gay guy.


I personally interpret Gaia and Ryne as besties, but it is perfectly understandable to see them as possibly more and I think they're the sweetest thing. If they became canon, I'd be happy for them ♥


As for Haurchefant, dude is just generally unhinged no matter your gender. He gawks at the WoL's muscles even if you're a girl. He's even more unhinged in the japanese. Dude is simply a weirdo (affectionate) and perhaps you're reading it a certain way assuming the WoL is canonically male, or not having checked the supposed differences between his dialogue if you're male or female? There are none.
Someone who does have differences in his dialogue depending on your character's gender is actually Thancred!

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Originally Posted by Shistar

I'd also be more worried about Demetrius being attracted to a literal dying child.

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That's kinda my point. It's weird that one of the likeliest instances of queer male attraction in the MSQ is a grown man obsessed with a kid.

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Originally Posted by Shistar

As for Haurchefant, dude is just generally unhinged no matter your gender. He gawks at the WoL's muscles even if you're a girl. He's even more unhinged in the japanese. Dude is simply a weirdo (affectionate) and perhaps you're reading it a certain way assuming the WoL is canonically male, or not having checked the supposed differences between his dialogue if you're male or female? There are none.

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One of the reasons I brought up Haurchefant is because even if you're playing a female WOL there's still the shirtless men in his office. Also the fact he gets Vaulted after becoming less of a joke character. Aymeric and G'raha could be positive examples, but it's more ambiguous with them since they're not as forward as he is and the queer implications are easier to miss depending on your character's gender.

does it get exhausting thinking like this

this is coming from a bi girl

I tend to clock things like that and this is a reach. And I can only assume this was bait, because if you actually cared about this sort of thing you wouldn't have missed all the positive queer characters in the game. And regardless of how you feel about Haurchefant, he is based on a japanese archetype that people tend to like. I hate it, personally, but it has nothing to do with his sexuality.

I believe it was just obsession.

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Originally Posted by StormChase

That's kinda my point. It's weird that one of the likeliest instances of queer male attraction in the MSQ is a grown man obsessed with a kid.

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I don't know how else to say this. I think you're the only one seeing something there. Dude is just obsessed with Calyx's genius mind, not the kid himself. If Calyx was an old woman, a supermodel, a Kobold or a worm, it wouldn't matter to Demetrius because he's not interested in the kid like that. The note mentions absolutely nothing about Calyx that could lead you to believe there's romantic feelings there. Could you please quote specific examples from the note so I can see it a bit more clearly?

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Originally Posted by StormChase

One of the reasons I brought up Haurchefant is because even if you're playing a female WOL there's still the shirtless men in his office. Also the fact he gets Vaulted after becoming less of a joke character. Aymeric and G'raha could be positive examples, but it's more ambiguous with them since they're not as forward as he is and the queer implications are easier to miss depending on your character's gender.

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I mean, I feel like getting Vaulted has nothing to do with his sexual orientation, Ysayle got Ysayle'd as well and she didn't even get a memorial, we didn't even see her corpse... Aymeric is just Ishgardian™ but I could totally see him having a romantic interest for the WoL but being unable to express it for many reasons, such as his personality, societal/political standing, conflicting lifestyles, etc. G'raha is mega on the nose. It's actually harder to see him as purely platonic sometimes LOL

I genuinely think Haurchefant is simply unhinged and, but due to the ishgardian generally patriarchal norms (head of the house is always male unless there's literally no eligible male to step up, in which case there is a Countess, which is extremely rare. Most women in Ishgard are found within city walls and dressed in dresses or robes. We literally don't know who birthed Haurchefant or his step siblings, not even by name. For every female soldier, there's at least 10 male soldiers. Modesty is strongly favored and not only due to the climate they live in. The list goes on and on.) it'd be much easier and socially acceptable to have his men train there than a scantily dressed woman. I don't think an ishgardian woman would willingly do that, and Haurchefant is not an asshole to force anyone to do it. There's also an inherently sexual component to having a woman in a bikini vs. a shirtless man, and ishgardians are terribly repressed people in many fronts lol

Considering the (female, in this example) WoL is a foreigner to Ishgard's standards and less likely to be as covered up or to follow the local standards of modesty than your regular ishgardian woman, I guess he's just doing his usual unhinged comments. I don't think it'd be a stretch at all to consider him bisexual at the very least, but I wouldn't consider him to be actually flirting with the WoL in a forward manner since there are many other unhinged characters in other parts of the game. I actually think that, as he gets to know us and become closer friends, he quits """"sexualizing""" us (a million quotation marks here, since it fully depends on how you personally interpret his dialogue) and becomes more interested in the WoL as a person and seeking to become someone the WoL can rely on, thus becoming rather positive queer representation with a bit of a rocky start depending on how you interpret his early dialogue. That's simply my personal interpretation of it all, though, and it is fair if you see it a different way.

(I did not realize I wrote this much. Clearly, I seem to have Thoughts about this character. Now I am embarrassed.)

I'm not sure I quite get your point of view, could you explain in more detail if possible? I think that if there is any possibly negative queer representation it wouldn't be Haurche, and he's universally beloved and his character arc makes sense to me personally. I can't think of any potentially negative queer representation off the top of my head except maybe Zenos, but he's also somehow very beloved by some sectors of the community for one reason or another.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

Considering Ryne and Gaia exist, I don't really think that at all.

I also don't think they particularly say the characters are "definitely gay or bi" at all either- it's just written that it's plausible that they are.

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This!
This thread is just ridiculous. The game I played isn't the least sexual or romantic, save from glancing references to very shallow short lived characters like Chai-nuzz and Dalia (had to look then up) and that's probably the most famous, and It's barely romantic and only mechanically sexual, and that is how I would have preferred the game stayed, especially in today's touchy climate of polarised self obsessions (although just 5 years ago this really wasn't an issue yet). In fact, the only 'charged' relationship was Rhyn and Gaia, and maybe Aliphinaud and Estinien. Both would have been homosexual. I don't imagine for a second that Estinien was really given the evil-camp treatment. They are all still alive.
This is ridiculous.
What is wrong with people. Is it something in the water?Too much balmung, mare, and p@&n memes? This obsession with sexuality. Everything has to be a reference to sexuality or at the very least have sexuality in it. Its a game! It's actually very a-sexual and pretty unromantic throughout.
I'd never been much bothered by the all the talk of games spoiled by various agendas, but suddenly its got to me to now.
Take a cold shower, find a protest to go on, register for Reddit, and subscribe to some dating apps.
At the very least just have a frig before logging on. Get it out of your systems.
Maybe it is a mare withdrawal thing.

The men don't even have nipples the game is so asexual!
That's the first thing to deal with if we want to get out of shape about vaguely sexual matters. (Its kind of creepy, like some kind of mass eunech mutilation)

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Originally Posted by StormChase

It's something I've noticed with the men specifically. "Definitely" might be stretching it a little but I mean there's no other good explanation for why they act that way.

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I mean...

If we want to go that way, then:

- Alphinaud is pining over Estinien;
- Aymeric, G'raha and Erenville are pining over WoL (regardless of their gender, but that includes MxM as well as result);
- Thancred with Urianger are teased to be the fatherly duo for the last three expansions;
- The whole thing with Emet x Hythlodaeus x Azem trio, which can also be interpreted differently.

You could argue that's because they're core members of our traveling party, but still, none of them are being creepy. I also think Haurchefant was meant to be comedic more than creepy, but that's besides the point.

Then there's also a couple of a Miqo'te and Hyur from one of the seasonal events from Ul'dah, and a couple of Viera guys from DT DoL questline who very much look like potential partners, and as far as I recall both are rather cute, be it as friends or as something romantic. I'm pretty sure there're more, but these are the ones I can recall.

They write a lot of things ambiguously on purpose for freedom of interpretation, and the writing can be summarised as "there're enough hints for you to see something romantic there if you want to, but it's not loaded heavily enough for it to be impossible to be seen as friendly/familial for those who don't want to see it as anything else". Regardless of how people interpret all those instances, not every single case of representation has to be flawlessly positive, and I can recall more instances of what can be read as a positive one rather than otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Gurgeh

The game I played isn't the least sexual or romantic, save from glancing references to very shallow short lived characters like Chai-nuzz and Dalia (had to look then up) and that's probably the most famous, and It's barely romantic and only mechanically sexual, [...] In fact, the only 'charged' relationship was Rhyn and Gaia, and maybe Aliphinaud and Estinien. Both would have been homosexual. I don't imagine for a second that Estinien was really given the evil-camp treatment.

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Legitimately insane takes.

The Chais are a married couple who showcase their romantic love multiple times as you get to know them through the story.
Estinien is 32 years old and they both see each other as siblings. Alphinaud specifically says something along the lines of "the brother he never had" and looks up to him.

Can't believe I clicked on show message from a muted user for this. I should mind my business more lol

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Originally Posted by Shistar

Legitimately insane takes.

The Chais are a married couple who showcase their romantic love multiple times as you get to know them through the story.
Estinien is 32 years old and they both see each other as siblings. Alphinaud specifically says something along the lines of "the brother he never had" and looks up to him.

Can't believe I clicked on show message from a muted user for this. I should mind my business more lol

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Agreed. Especially on Estinien, I'm clutching at straws. Why would you unmute me for this. This is what matters to you(?).

Only confirmed gay couple Ive seen in game is from ARR and they said their villages or something shunned them because of their bond. But no idea if its because of them being gay or them being from different races. Might be a regional thing on both accounts. Like in Gyr Abania that one Miqo'te has no issues suggesting a family with one of the midlanders.

I understand shipping Gaia and Ryne, but they might as well be just good friends. But thats nothing new to the culture, a character in any media sneezes in the direction of another and they are a couple now. So many people just mistake close friendship with being a couple.

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Originally Posted by Hallarem

I understand shipping Gaia and Ryne, but they might as well be just good friends. But thats nothing new to the culture, a character in any media sneezes in the direction of another and they are a couple now. So many people just mistake close friendship with being a couple.

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Fandom culture often doesn't even need as much as an interaction, ngl. There're plenty of cases of "they look cute so we ship it" in different communities, and cross-overs were a whole huge thing in 00s-10s. Which is probably fair, since at the end of the day the main purpose of fandom culture is to have fun.

At least with FF14 writing is often ambiguous enough for it to be possible to interpret interractions differently depending on what the player wants to see there.

Didn't read it as queer baiting.

Did find it to be sloppy and ham fisted for half a dozen other reasons. Of the three pieces of furniture in his massive, empty office, one is a locker decorated in secret like that of an infatuated schoolgirl. He's a grown man.

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Originally Posted by Shistar

OP, I
I personally interpret Gaia and Ryne as besties, but it is perfectly understandable to see them as possibly more and I think they're the sweetest thing. If they became canon, I'd be happy for them ♥

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I feel the same. They were never explicitly stated to be in either in a romantic relationship or seeking one. I realise the Raids dropped some subtext and visual parallels that left their feelings toward each other open to player interpretation, but this is the same scenario as we had with Urianger & Moenbryda - on an official level the relationship is platonic but there is enough obvious subtext to allow for players to interpret the relationship as being, or working toward becoming, more.

Its a classic gag

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Originally Posted by StormChase

I'd say it's a mixed bag. Players can get gay married but canon LGBT NPCs are pretty few and far between, and sometimes it feels like the explicit or more strongly implied NPCs are the butt of a joke. To be fair the MSQ in particular doesn't focus much on romantic relationships, but when it does they're almost always if not always straight.

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I mean heres the thing though, you don't want to force those things. This comes down to the writers ability to even write this in a good way (not confident about that currently), cultural norms in Japan (I think it's accepted but I don't live there so I won't say by how much), and also statistically if they are just a company trying to keep it safe and the game "for everyone" the stats ar like 3-5% of the world is actually gay. LGBTQ+ seems a lot higher, but I don't think I've seen any concrete data on that that doesn't eventually have a bias or skew conservative or liberal.

Honestly I would say for the writing alone they should hold off until someone can actually tell a good tale so the inclusion feels natural and isn't butchered, and in turn cause it's own backlash.

dude's a shotacon and a simp. CBU3 was cooking

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Originally Posted by Ephremjlm

cultural norms in Japan (I think it's accepted but I don't live there so I won't say by how much), and also statistically if they are just a company trying to keep it safe and the game "for everyone"

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It's kind of "whatever" in media, in Japan, and for the actual community it's a hit or miss. There's no violent prejudice, but a lot of families and corporations have a "what people will say" reputational thing going on. Basically, it's not horrible, but it's very nuanced.

The game, however, is on global market, and they have to keep in mind that it's also played by people from countries where these kind of topics are heavily tabooed, and making open announcements might be putting the game at risk of being banned there. As result, the ambiguous writing we have right now (and which they're arguably good at) is most likely the most we'll ever have, which has its pros and cons.

Oh man... A recommendation for our OP here: culture war trenches are bad for you, get out of them and see the world for what it is, you'll be a whole lot happier for it.

I really don't get why this is such a controversial assumption when Livia's in the game, except in her case there's a much wider range of straight characters.

I'm gay and didn't percieve it that way.

It just read as "Whoa, this guy is fan girl obessesed with this guy on a crazy level".

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Originally Posted by Shistar

I mean, I feel like getting Vaulted has nothing to do with his sexual orientation, Ysayle got Ysayle'd as well and she didn't even get a memorial, we didn't even see her corpse...

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Realistically I think they had other reasons for Haurchefant but it's definitely quite the coincidence he died after he became a serious character. Ysayle's death had more to do with her being a woman in a Maehiro storyline.