Why are there still Garleans in the old castrums post EW?

We had a discussion while hanging out on the water park ship in Costa del Sol that the Garlean castrum up in the mountain are probably losing their minds over it.

How the hell are they still there? They have no commanders. They are probably low on supplies.

We talked about turning them into squatters and sticking them in civilian clothes if you are past EW, but keeping their titles the same.

And if you are going to fight them for stuff like ARR books or the old GC hunting logs, then you're fighting former Garleans who will mug you (or other adventurers.)

Making more than a single map for everyone at any point of progression of MSQ would detract time away from putting things in the cash shop,
and they sure won't do that.

It's way more important a new 20+ bucks mount or 5 new glam sets are on the shop to SE.

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Originally Posted by ViinaS

Making more than a single map for everyone at any point of progression of MSQ would detract time away from putting things in the cash shop,
and they sure won't do that.

It's way more important a new 20+ bucks mount or 5 new glam sets are on the shop to SE.

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They don't even need to make a new map, they just need to make the same mob have a slightly different appearance.

Or just disappear completely if you literally had 0 quests left to do with them.

What the heck all those Garleans are STILL doing in Azys Lla is an even bigger question. It's like SE thought they were old content instead of npcs and promptly forgot about them.

And you're right, we can run around the same maps and have that map be in different states according to our own progression, which is why things like this just make 0 sense.

Private security :)

Allow me to give SE an escape route on this matter:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_holdout

But I agree with the sentiment of everyone above. However, I should note that at least the Zodiac Braves books will need to be reworked to remove the Garlean enemies.

As for the troops in Azys La, I'm pretty sure they botched that storyline.

Let's not forget the Consulate in Kugane.

Mechanically speaking, they just don't have the tech; I suspect FFXIV's zone phasing tech can't do more than cosmetic changes and shifting around NPCs, so they can't have hostile mobs abandon the castrum. Not that I think anyone actually wants them to, because to do so would actually kinda break things. Hunting logs would become uncompletable, certain items like Garlean Rubber would become unobtainable.

And as Toranja points out, there is some level of historical precedence; there's the Japanese holdouts, but I suspect this might also have an element of, like, U.S. military bases in previously-hostile countries; you can't quite get rid of them. ...also, I feel like it'd be rude to do it at this point, those castrums are now MUCH better living spaces than Garlemald is.

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Originally Posted by MaikoRaines

Let's not forget the Consulate in Kugane.

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The consulate, on the other hand, makes complete sense. Garlemald's still a nation, they still have a consulate in a political capacity! If anything those guys are probably busier right now.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

The consulate, on the other hand, makes complete sense. Garlemald's still a nation, they still have a consulate in a political capacity! If anything those guys are probably busier right now.

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But they still call us "savage", after all we've done for them.

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Originally Posted by Yuella

But they still call us "savage", after all we've done for them.

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Yeah, unfortunately even if we could punch the racism out of a person, we haven't done it to the Garlean consulate.

In fact, broadly knowing what I do about consulates and embassies it makes complete sense those guys are still mad; they were probably loyalists given a cushy job for their service, and they're literally an entire continent away from the negative repercussions of what Garlemald faced after Stormblood. Genuinely, their life probably hasn't changed (aside from, again, probably handling a lot more stuff from Garleans in the region than they used to), and they're likely exactly the same stuck-up superior types that we dealt with in late 6.x.

We've done nothing for the people in that consulate aside from kill their boss(es).

I can appreciate trying to find an in-universe explanation for this, but the simple matter of fact is that those zones are in a time bubble. It's not very immersive, no, (frustratingly compounded by the fact that some NPC dialogue is updated to reflect MSQ progress, even in ARR zones) but the game's tech limitations are what they are, as Cleretic speculated.

I'm not here to spoil anyone's creative writing/game design exercise, though!

Yeah, we should also be barred from doing dungeons and trials after the first clear, since the enemies/bosses are all dead....

joking ofc, for consistency sake, the current status is the simpler/better aproach to content

Do any MMOs update zones as you progress through the story? I know wow does a bit, but that's because they have nuked several zones so they have added an option to visit the pre-nuked version. Which is certainly better than originally, like when you got to the final panda zone late in the expac, it was all devastated because they didn't allow for people still progressing the main story after a patch had dropped.

XIV is rare in that it continues to produce content for older zones, where many just forget anything apart from the current expac exists. I think I prefer it this way, even if it does result in these kinds of anomalies.

For gameplay reasons, it's convenient. Having played WoW where I party up with other people only to discover we're on different "phasing" of an area and can't actually do anything together, I don't mind that FFXIV largely ignores the concept. People at all stages of the game can still group up, do FATEs, etc. without phasing getting in the way.

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Making more than a single map for everyone at any point of progression of MSQ would detract time away from putting things in the cash shop,
and they sure won't do that.

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When you reach the point of comments like this, it might be time to admit you're just completely jaded and move on. It would be completely, completely, completely different staff working on each of those two concepts.

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Originally Posted by Necromonica

Do any MMOs update zones as you progress through the story? I know wow does a bit, but that's because they have nuked several zones so they have added an option to visit the pre-nuked version. Which is certainly better than originally, like when you got to the final panda zone late in the expac, it was all devastated because they didn't allow for people still progressing the main story after a patch had dropped.

XIV is rare in that it continues to produce content for older zones, where many just forget anything apart from the current expac exists. I think I prefer it this way, even if it does result in these kinds of anomalies.

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FFXI did update the zones around Jeuno after the Wings of the Goddess expansion was added, by changing the ruined battlements in those zones to better reflect their locations and appearence during the Crystal War (which that expansion featured travelling back in time to), and FFXIV of course in ARR has had changes implemented to zones as the story progresses, mostly involving the zone's default weather.

The big one of course being the Eternal Light in the First during Shadowbringers is a story point of disappearing as you take down each respective Lightwarden, only to come back temporarly and then disappear again for good after the end of it.

Then there also the 'Apocalypse' weather as part of the Final Days that appears during a certain point in ShB's patch story, and which is a plot point in it's appearence in Thavnair and Garlemald in Endwalker.

Fannyboy's tempering towers like the Tower of Zot also appeared towards the end of ShB's story in the background of certain zones as part of the story only to disappear much later in Ew - the Tower of Zot going first as soon as you complete that dungeon, with the rest following later).

Other than that, it's mostly just small settlements added as part of the friendly beasttribe/Allied Tribe quests that change appearence as you complete their storylines and assist with their ongoing development. So in the FF series at least, it definetely happens, albeit on a small scale.

And in terms of other MMOs, it's important to remember that FFXIV is kinda the only one that does lean this heavily on story, so while it's not the only one that theoretically hits this problem, it is the only one where people really care all that much. Anywhere else, you solve the vampire problem, vampires are still out in the open world and nobody really cares because it's an MMO, of course they are.

Like Necro herself said, what's more often done is when an MMO just outright throws out an old zone in a revamp, which they actually mostly do because they don't care, that zone's content holds no meaningful value to them and so can be replaced. I didn't play WoW, but City of Heroes did that a handful of times, with an extra feature where you can time-travel to the old version of the map if you really wanted to, which nobody ever did except to grab exploration achievements.

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Originally Posted by Necromonica

Do any MMOs update zones as you progress through the story? I know wow does a bit, but that's because they have nuked several zones so they have added an option to visit the pre-nuked version. Which is certainly better than originally, like when you got to the final panda zone late in the expac, it was all devastated because they didn't allow for people still progressing the main story after a patch had dropped.

XIV is rare in that it continues to produce content for older zones, where many just forget anything apart from the current expac exists. I think I prefer it this way, even if it does result in these kinds of anomalies.

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Mor Dhona, Idyllshire, Doman Enclave are the three zones that show progress throughout the story. Mor Dhona and Idyllshire were automatic. Doman Enclave was dependent on your actions.

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Originally Posted by Yuella

Mor Dhona, Idyllshire, Doman Enclave are the three zones that show progress throughout the story. Mor Dhona and Idyllshire were automatic. Doman Enclave was dependent on your actions.

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Mor Dhona and Idyllshire are completely static. Like the Firmament (and CE's moon settlement -- and soon to be the other planets, presumably), players would've seen those places develop when they were on-content, but new players will only ever see their finished states. So I don't think these count, since those were never actually tied to individuals' MSQ progression. They did what others have described other games doing, where the zones were altered universally, which is actually pretty atypical for how XIV likes to handle things otherwise.

I imagine it's a similar case as to why Destiny still had Red Legion troops showing up in the overworld despite that faction looooong being "dealt with" in the story... They were simply said to be stray remnants.

Anyway it ain't something that Costa would care about very much nowadays. The average Garlean grunt looks like a dude wearing a bike helmet, a sweater, tights, and whatever class-appropriate LARPing gear they're decked out in.

https://i.imgur.com/9palFGV.png

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Originally Posted by Turnintino

Mor Dhona and Idyllshire are completely static. Like the Firmament (and CE's moon settlement -- and soon to be the other planets, presumably), players would've seen those places develop when they were on-content, but new players will only ever see their finished states. So I don't think these count, since those were never actually tied to individuals' MSQ progression. They did what others have described other games doing, where the zones were altered universally, which is actually pretty atypical for how XIV likes to handle things otherwise.

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Yuella's bringing up that during ARR and HW, Revenant's Toll and Idyllshire were gradually built up bit by bit in every patch. The version you see now is the final form; I can't find any detailed records of Revenant's Toll's progression (probably because people didn't expect them to do it), but here's a Youtube video showing how Idyllshire grew every patch. I think the Doman Enclave was a way for them to reflect that without the chance that people would just miss it if they weren't playing at the time.

I don't think that's really what Necromonica was asking, but it is a neat thing to look back on.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Yuella's bringing up that during ARR and HW, Revenant's Toll and Idyllshire were gradually built up bit by bit in every patch. The version you see now is the final form; I can't find any detailed records of Revenant's Toll's progression (probably because people didn't expect them to do it), but here's a Youtube video showing how Idyllshire grew every patch. I think the Doman Enclave was a way for them to reflect that without the chance that people would just miss it if they weren't playing at the time.

I don't think that's really what Necromonica was asking, but it is a neat thing to look back on.

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Yep! Which is why I said "players would've seen those places develop when they were on-content, but new players will only ever see their finished states."

Generally, I just consider each zone as taking place during the expansion they released with.
So there are Garleans in the Castrums post EW, because that area does not reflect the time of post EW.

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Originally Posted by SilverArrow20XX

Generally, I just consider each zone as taking place during the expansion they released with.
So there are Garleans in the Castrums post EW, because that area does not reflect the time of post EW.

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Same. I have no other reason to think otherwise except when the game goes out of its way to display things differently in my screen, like the meteor shower and other weather changes in the First and Thavnair, and the weather and aesthetic changes in Living Memory.


It'd also take a ton of work to have enemies that display for only some people depending on their story progression, so if that was the case you'd either see eldritch abominations pop up in Thavnair randomly when someone further ahead in the story engages them or someone would be punching the air from a sprout's perspective. I don't know what's sillier lol