I thought the Deep Dungeon would be something new, but this is just Palace again...

I'm not going crazy, am I?

When the new deep dungeon was first announced the slide said "New plans for Deep Dungeon", and it seemed like it would be something different to the usual DD format.

This sentiment was repeated in the previous live letter. After how Eureka Orthos went it seemed like CBU3 was acknowledging the format had become stale and that another copy-paste of Palace of the Dead wasn't going to work.

I was under the impression that maybe the devs were finally thinking outside the box and breaking the formula for once, and that the deep dungeon could actually be something different and interesting.
...

Fast forward to the live letter today, and they're saying it's different - but then they go on to show what appears to be yet another reskin of Palace/Heaven on High.

There are a couple of QoL changes like extra checkpoints and matched parties being allowed above floor 30, and a separate savage/ultimate trial which looks cool - but the deep dungeon itself is the same as always.

- Same 100 floors with a boss every 10 floors
- Same pomanders
- Same floor effects but repackaged as an optional interactable
- Same aetherpool progression (your actual gear from savage is useless again)
- Same chests, same potsherds luminous oil, and weapons you can get outside the dungeon

When I pointed this out, people told me it's completely different because it's "horizontal".

But in the stream there was no horizontal movement, just teleporting to the next instanced floor via the cairn of passage like every other DD. Maybe it's "canonically" horizontal? But that's just a buzzword that doesn't affect the actual gameplay, it's functionally the same as being "vertical". Literally nothing was changed in this regard.

Am I missing something here?

The new trial does look interesting, and requiring items from the DD to enter the trial could be good for dungeon's player count - assuming the trial has good and repeatable rewards that is.

I'm just a little disappointed that the actual deep dungeon, which the majority of players will be doing, doesn't offer anything substantially different to past iterations of Deep Dungeon beyond the scenery.

Ultimately whether it's different is going to depend on what aspect you were expecting to be different.

I don't view the changes as QoL so much as a complete rethink about the approachability of the content and motivating people to do it in the first place, without needing to commit an entire day to it with a real life backpack of snacks.

I do think they could experiment a little more more with pomanders and floor effects to fit the theme of each DD. But that isn't really the only factor in DD since it depends on how they did the mob patrols and mechanics, as well as the boss mechanics.

I'm glad they went with the vertical idea, because I thought of that since we got DD, because mazes exist and they are usually horizontal. I personally find aesthetic differences valid, and the lore of traveling through it will be nice.

A lot of the innovation is at the end with the last boss, being less frustrating to get back up to it, being more rewarding and the quantum boss where you can modify mechanics and difficulty.

Of course, I'd love a TOTAL new deep dungeon experience, but from what they showed, it feels more innovative than HoH was in relation to PotD compared to EO in relation to HoH, which seems like a big improvement without being what I really wanted to see.

In the end, the final verdict can only be relayed by actually playing it, so I'll wait. I swore EO would be okay-not-great but on practice was... meh.

Palace didn't "cushion" how far back they send you if your party wipes
Palace didn't allow you to prog the last boss in a separate instance
Palace didn't have Quantum difficulty that allows players to decide amongst themselves how difficult they want the boss to be with "offerings."

So yeah.. you're missing something here.

I don't think it will be anything new, just the same old stuff. The harder difficulty sounds like those unkillable Orthos mobs but with extra steps.
FFXIV to all of a sudden do a 180 to more interesting content would mean they could have done it at any moment but couldn't be asked. But what I actually think will be is just another POTD dance dance revolution with a final raid boss taped on top.
I will need to play it to see for myself and try the system out, but I don't think it would be anything new. At this point in time I don't trust the devs. I was excited for OC but it was a let down. The only good thing that came out of it was the Weapon grind. I got all of mine in Tural zones FATEs before I knew they had a smaller chance of dropping lol. It was a fun week worth of casual farming after work.

I would also like them to shake up the gameplay experience of Deep Dungeon a bit more.

Systems changes were also much needed so I'm excited for those. I think this is an overall good step in the right direction

I never bothered with PotD, so I could not enter HoH or... the third one whose name I cannot remember.
Was something said about entry requirements for the new one? Does it still require you to finish some age old content, or will it be open to all?

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Originally Posted by Gwenkatsu

I never bothered with PotD, so I could not enter HoH or... the third one whose name I cannot remember.
Was something said about entry requirements for the new one? Does it still require you to finish some age old content, or will it be open to all?

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You can bet on that it will require a PotD Floor 50 clear for access.

It sounds like you were under the impression, for some very strange reason, that this new Deep Dungeon would somehow be so radically different from all three previous Deep Dungeons that it wouldn't even be called a Deep Dungeon. This expectation is probably the exact reason Yoshida decided to take the time to explain what a Deep Dungeon is before explaining what this one does that differs from the previous three. Yoshida could tell me that the team and him has "new plans" for the upcoming 7.4 Trial but I'll still be expecting an 8-man, 2 tanks, 2 healers, 4 dps arena battle with an oversized mob having us play out visually appealing DDR. Because it's still a trial.

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Originally Posted by Bryson

Palace didn't "cushion" how far back they send you if your party wipes
Palace didn't allow you to prog the last boss in a separate instance
Palace didn't have Quantum difficulty that allows players to decide amongst themselves how difficult they want the boss to be with "offerings."

So yeah.. you're missing something here.

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These, in my honest opinion, are great and are definitely new and different from all three previous Deep Dungeons. I'm happy to see these changes and hope that once it launches it receives positive feedback for them to continue in this direction.

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Originally Posted by Underscore

When the new deep dungeon was first announced the slide said "New plans for Deep Dungeon", and it seemed like it would be something different to the usual DD format.
[...]
Am I missing something here?

---

Not to disregard your feelings because you can be disappointed for any reason, but to come back on this specific line : when they said "new plans for Deep Dungeon", it meant that they were actually planning on doing a new one. They stopped after HoH and Orthos was also tentative, so it was a way of saying that the format will continue on.

For the rest, well, Deep Dungeon will still be Deep Dungeon. If it was a wildly different progression, where you bring your actual gear from outside, might as well just be a new piece of content. No matter what, Deep Dungeon will always be a set number of floor, procedurally generated, where you level up and improve a weapon you can take outside after some time. Then again, if a new piece of content akin to Deep Dungeon but with these changes appeals to you, it's always good to voice that you want something like that !

For what makes it different, it is the setting of course, but also the mechanics have been quite improved, especially how this content deals with wipes for progression towards Floor 100. I think Votives are also added on top of regular floor effects, but someone might correct me on that.

And what really sets this one apart I think is the floor 99 boss and its instance. The fact that it is a boss whose difficulty is adjusted by player input is very interesting to me, and if it works out it could be a great idea to expand to other pieces of content.

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Originally Posted by DoubleJustice

I would also like them to shake up the gameplay experience of Deep Dungeon a bit more.

Systems changes were also much needed so I'm excited for those. I think this is an overall good step in the right direction

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I agree yeah. What could be fun for example is to have a system similar to Phantom Jobs to shake up your progression. Hell, you could even put a Deep Dungeon in an exploration content.
But also, I think it could be nice if they did more with the level design of rooms. Each room being flat and somewhat of a square is part of what makes DDs monotonous. Having you just like, climb some rocks or go down a hole to reach the next room or floor could feel a bit fresh.

I wouldve hoped for gameplay system changes as well. People have been complaining about the general gameplay of this game but somehow a fourth PotD is getting the slip?? Additional checkpoints and the offering thing are nice but its the same goddamn thing otherwise.

I just hope the rewards are a bit more interesting than <MateriaNameHere XII>.

i really liked the previous deep dungeons and I'm very looking forward to this one. It would be nice, if they increase the replayabilitiy by adding titles or achievements, that make you solo/clear it more than 1-4 times tho

No, it’s not crazy to expect that after 12 years a development team would introduce significant innovation. That the 4th iteration of content would be meaningfully different in approach, complexity, engagement or variety. I simply do not understand the people in this playerbase that think that adding checkpoints and an additional boss at the very end of the content is meaningful change.

I did a fair bit of PotD in HW and SB prior to HoH unlocking, leveled a ton of jobs. Did the same with HoH. EO was simply a new coat of paint and mobs were WAY too tanky sub floor 30. After skipping DD for an expansion the complete lack of fresh ideas in EO was so extremely disappointing. I still did the content, but far less than either HoH or PoTD. I got the TT card and then stopped. DD takes the weakest aspect of this game’s combat (trash mobs) and has you interact with it for 95% of the time.

Plenty of long-standing franchises that put out games on the regular still manage to innovate and make significant changes to the gameplay. Those that don’t, rightfully receive a plethora of criticism. Why this fanbase thinks that SE should be immune to criticism while paralleling the same circumstances is insane. That putting out the exact same content every 3 years but with different colors is acceptable.

After seeing the 2nd PLL I won’t even be unlocking the content. And this is from someone who unlocks EVERYTHING and does all side content in the game. It’s the same old stuff.

It just sounds like you don't enjoy the general concept of Deep Dungeons.

They never said that they are redoing the base concept of how they work, because a Deep Dungeon is a Deep Dungeon.
However, they've made changes that allow for an extra challenge after, make wiping in a group less punishing higher up, give an additional random system with the (de-)buff lamp, and you even get higher tier hoard for beating lower floor sets weekly, if I remember correctly.

As someone who really enjoys Deep Dungeons both in groups and solo, I find these changes exciting, and as someone who enjoys raiding, I like the idea of a special boss where you can even decide how hard you want it to be.

I do agree with the OP, they brought nice QoL changes and the way the content can cater to a broader audience, but they didn't even try to change anything about the gameplay inside, or improve upon it, making the core of the content another reskin of palace. It's disappointing.

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Originally Posted by Bryson

Palace didn't have Quantum difficulty that allows players to decide amongst themselves how difficult they want the boss to be with "offerings."

So yeah.. you're missing something here.

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The thing you're completely missing for sure is that the optional quantum boss is all but part of deep dungeon. It just happens to require clearing that deep dungeon to access, but otherwise it's just yet another regular boss that has nothing to do with deep dungeons and rogue lites.

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Originally Posted by Gwenkatsu

I never bothered with PotD, so I could not enter HoH or... the third one whose name I cannot remember.
Was something said about entry requirements for the new one? Does it still require you to finish some age old content, or will it be open to all?

---

Yes. They specifically mentioned you must have completed PotD 1-50 to access this new one. Same requirement as the others.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yeems

It just sounds like you don't enjoy the general concept of Deep Dungeons.

They never said that they are redoing the base concept of how they work, because a Deep Dungeon is a Deep Dungeon.
However, they've made changes that allow for an extra challenge after, make wiping in a group less punishing higher up, give an additional random system with the (de-)buff lamp, and you even get higher tier hoard for beating lower floor sets weekly, if I remember correctly.

As someone who really enjoys Deep Dungeons both in groups and solo, I find these changes exciting, and as someone who enjoys raiding, I like the idea of a special boss where you can even decide how hard you want it to be.

---

I do like the general concept, and I'll give Pilgrim's Traverse a try if the rewards are appealing. I just think that by the fourth iteration it would've been nice to see that concept built upon in some way, y'know? Just something to give it some variety and perhaps make the floors feel less repetitive. Things don't have to follow a rigid formula, and I think deep dungeons have the potential to be more than that.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I do agree with the OP, they brought nice QoL changes and the way the content can cater to a broader audience, but they didn't even try to change anything about the gameplay inside, or improve upon it, making the core of the content another reskin of palace. It's disappointing.



The thing you're completely missing for sure is that the optional quantum boss is all but part of deep dungeon. It just happens to require clearing that deep dungeon to access, but otherwise it's just yet another regular boss that has nothing to do with deep dungeons and rogue lites.

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"require clearing deep dungeon" and "have nothing to do with deep dungeon" are mutually exclusive.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Yes. They specifically mentioned you must have completed PotD 1-50 to access this new one. Same requirement as the others.

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I really wish they would stop doing this. I've literally beaten HoH twice. Stop locking it away from my alt!

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Yes. They specifically mentioned you must have completed PotD 1-50 to access this new one. Same requirement as the others.

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I would like to know the reason why they make PotD a requirement for every Deep Dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Bryson

Palace didn't "cushion" how far back they send you if your party wipes
Palace didn't allow you to prog the last boss in a separate instance
Palace didn't have Quantum difficulty that allows players to decide amongst themselves how difficult they want the boss to be with "offerings."

So yeah.. you're missing something here.

---

it's still the same gameplay loop
having slight differences doesn't make it different enough

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Originally Posted by ACE135

I would like to know the reason why they make PotD a requirement for every Deep Dungeon.

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I assume because its the easiest, most basic concept of a dd, which teaches the key mechs

If what happened with Occult Crescent is anything to go by, the devs probably have plans to crash the gold sack market for older Deep Dungeon drops, on the assumption that it will help pull free trial players into subscribing to current content. Increasing accessiblity to higher floors with additional start points will expedite this, especially if the new drop tables contain all the old stuff.

I think as far as actual innovations are concerned, I would have liked them to look at the roguelite genre in general and come up with ways to implement common gameplay elements with a Final Fantasy twist. The most obvious idea would be to create a randomized 'lost action system' which gets reset after every run, allowing players to put together new builds on every playthrough. That could have been tied to a job system, or could be based off of FFXIII's draw system.

Most of the listed changes seem to be about quality of life rather than about making the core gameplay loop more interesting. The problem is that they don't know how to iteratively innovate on an existing formula to keep it fresh.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

[...]Most of the listed changes seem to be about quality of life rather than about making the core gameplay loop more interesting. The problem is that they don't know how to iteratively innovate on an existing formula to keep it fresh.

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I'm glad to know there are other people thinking something similar. I did not watch the LL & was simply going by what my friends relayed to me, and stuffs like OP. But the first thing that came to my mind was "Aren't we supposed to have these smooth experience to begin with anyway since PotD if they ever bother to revisit these older contents? Why are these even sold as 'new feature'?"

...it's almost as if every Deep Dungeon is the same.

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Originally Posted by Sekundessounet

Not to disregard your feelings because you can be disappointed for any reason, but to come back on this specific line : when they said "new plans for Deep Dungeon", it meant that they were actually planning on doing a new one. They stopped after HoH and Orthos was also tentative, so it was a way of saying that the format will continue on.

For the rest, well, Deep Dungeon will still be Deep Dungeon. If it was a wildly different progression, where you bring your actual gear from outside, might as well just be a new piece of content. No matter what, Deep Dungeon will always be a set number of floor, procedurally generated, where you level up and improve a weapon you can take outside after some time. Then again, if a new piece of content akin to Deep Dungeon but with these changes appeals to you, it's always good to voice that you want something like that !

For what makes it different, it is the setting of course, but also the mechanics have been quite improved, especially how this content deals with wipes for progression towards Floor 100. I think Votives are also added on top of regular floor effects, but someone might correct me on that.

And what really sets this one apart I think is the floor 99 boss and its instance. The fact that it is a boss whose difficulty is adjusted by player input is very interesting to me, and if it works out it could be a great idea to expand to other pieces of content.

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^This right here

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Yes. They specifically mentioned you must have completed PotD 1-50 to access this new one. Same requirement as the others.

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Thanks for the clarification.
Sounds like the fourth DD will get the same treatment by me as the other three :)

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Originally Posted by Bryson

"require clearing deep dungeon" and "have nothing to do with deep dungeon" are mutually exclusive.

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:rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Underscore

I'm not going crazy, am I?

When the new deep dungeon was first announced the slide said "New plans for Deep Dungeon", and it seemed like it would be something different to the usual DD format.

This sentiment was repeated in the previous live letter. After how Eureka Orthos went it seemed like CBU3 was acknowledging the format had become stale and that another copy-paste of Palace of the Dead wasn't going to work.

I was under the impression that maybe the devs were finally thinking outside the box and breaking the formula for once, and that the deep dungeon could actually be something different and interesting.
...

Fast forward to the live letter today, and they're saying it's different - but then they go on to show what appears to be yet another reskin of Palace/Heaven on High.

There are a couple of QoL changes like extra checkpoints and matched parties being allowed above floor 30, and a separate savage/ultimate trial which looks cool - but the deep dungeon itself is the same as always.

- Same 100 floors with a boss every 10 floors
- Same pomanders
- Same floor effects but repackaged as an optional interactable
- Same aetherpool progression (your actual gear from savage is useless again)
- Same chests, same potsherds luminous oil, and weapons you can get outside the dungeon

When I pointed this out, people told me it's completely different because it's "horizontal".

But in the stream there was no horizontal movement, just teleporting to the next instanced floor via the cairn of passage like every other DD. Maybe it's "canonically" horizontal? But that's just a buzzword that doesn't affect the actual gameplay, it's functionally the same as being "vertical". Literally nothing was changed in this regard.

Am I missing something here?

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It will be good for 4 weeks

Why would they make Savage gear matter in this anyway? The whole idea of aetherpool in a Deep Dungeon is putting everyone on the same level and capability of doing it. We all have to work on leveling up our aetherpool by doing the content. Savage gear matters where Savage gear needs to matter and doesn't give players a freebie in other content unlike where some MMOs let the gear gap get out of control.

Creatively Bankrupt Unit 3. Not that it is a new thing.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Why would they make Savage gear matter in this anyway? The whole idea of aetherpool in a Deep Dungeon is putting everyone on the same level and capability of doing it. We all have to work on leveling up our aetherpool by doing the content. Savage gear matters where Savage gear needs to matter and doesn't give players a freebie in other content unlike where some MMOs let the gear gap get out of control.

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Amen.
To.
This.

Deep Dungeon is one of my favorite things in FFXIV. I love just steadily working toward things and having progress to show for it. I've done them all to the point of having the mounts you get when you clear it four times. This one looks promising too. I hope it doesn't fizzle out after a few weeks, but who am I kidding?