Calyx and Preservation

I wanted to talk a little bit about Calyx and I wanted to know what you think as well. I know I've made a similar comment about this in the past, but this just has been in my mind ever since! (Also feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about anything I say here)

First thing I want to say is that I believe Calyx to be the most intelligent character in the universe of XIV (at least who's still "alive"). He was born a child genius; he has had access to the highest level of technology ever seen in the universe (arguably more than Allag); he is the founder of Preservation, who was responsible for the creation of Everkeep as well as all its technologies, the army, the vehicles, the regulators, etc.; he has "lived" for over 400 years - plenty of time to do research on multiple different things; and last but not least: he has some of the Ascian knowledge. Now we don't know how much information he got from the Ascians, it might have only been the nature of the reflections and the source, but it could be more.

All of this is to say that Calyx seems to be the most intelligent character introduced in this game, which, in my personal opinion, gives him the potential of being one of the biggest threats we have faced.

Could Calyx, and perhaps Preservation as a whole, be a bigger threat that's going to be sort of in the "background" as we deal with other things, kind of like the Ascians in 2.0?

The original purpose of Calyx, and preservation, was to develop a cure to the sickness affecting the people exposed to too much electric aether. At some point, preservation turned their focus to start developing means to do interdimensional fusion, which was when Oblivion was born and interrupted them. Could this have been the point where the Ascians got involved in Preservation? Or have they been involved from the start?

Another thing that's interesting is: where could Calyx's memories be stored? We shut down Living Memory (assumedly all of it) and he's still around, and there's still room for those 5000 endless he promised. So where? The implication here is that there's another terminal, perhaps multiple, but could they be anywhere in the Ninth? Could they potentially be in satellites? On the moon?

I don't know, I've been trying to think about how they can wrap all of this up by 7.3, and to me 7.3 is shaping up to be pretty huge story wise. How do you think this will wrap up? What will be left for .4 and .5 and eventually 8.0?

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Originally Posted by Cassar

All of this is to say that Calyx seems to be the most intelligent character introduced in this game, which, in my personal opinion, gives him the potential of being one of the biggest threats we have faced.

Could Calyx, and perhaps Preservation as a whole, be a bigger threat that's going to be sort of in the "background" as we deal with other things, kind of like the Ascians in 2.0?

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Oh, I completely assume that's where we're going for this, and I'm really excited about it.

I think the most exciting thing about Calyx is that he's a very different kind of villain to what FFXIV has had before: our villains up until now have all been very emotionally-driven and very light on the intricacies of their plans; we've got the Empire and Thordan's 'we should rule because it's our rite', Zenos' search for emotional meaning, Yotsuyu's revenge, Emet's loneliness-induced hatred, and of course Meteion's despair. Even in side content we don't really see a villain fueled by intellect and reason; Omega sort of purported to be, but even it was emotionally driven and had a poorly-considered plan.

I admit, it's too early to be 100% certain Calyx isn't that; they've got room to reveal that Calyx is actually A Very Sad Little Boy Who Misses His Mom. But I'm optimistic that it'll be different, and that's actually a really interesting stamp to put on this new era of FFXIV, that we've got this fundamentally different villain with a fundamentally different structure to his plans.

What's really been making me think is whether he's in league w/ Ascians or not, they are the source of his knowledge re: the sundering and clearly allow his designs to be carried out. In that vein it means Endless and dimensional fusion serve a purpose towards the rejoining, but I'm still lost on it. It seems to me Calyx reflects some of the desires of FF9 Garland:

"To live is to give life meaning, yet one must take others' lives to survive... Terra's souls will sleep until they forget such nonsense. They will begin a new life in a new dimension. It's a world in which life and death become one... That is the dimension in which we are meant to live, as beings that transcend life and death!"

The immortality of the Ancients is not gone into much, but I do believe knowing of this immortality (and his own health) is a spur for his actions. I do question what it means to" return to the star" of one's own will to the aetherial sea. What Preservation has developed in terms of the regulators seems like experimentation to move humanity towards that previous immortality, along with experimenting on the memories that should be washed clean from the soul in the aetherial sea. I wouldn't be surprised if the Endless were experiments towards a way of protecting the souls of the Source in worst case scenario, or harvesting souls from shards and using the key or some other method to rejoin those of the Source without causing a calamity. Didn't see Calyx coming tbh so who knows where it's going but I'm interested.

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Originally Posted by DeathNoodles

they are the source of his knowledge re: the sundering and clearly allow his designs to be carried out.

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No, they were our source of this knowledge. We first learned that from Ardbert, who learned it form Elidibus, and later had Emet-Selch confirm it first-hand. All of that in a very short span of time, and exclusively on their terms.

Calyx has had a lot more runway than us. At the most conservative estimate, he's had four hundred years to put together a knowledge base that tells him that his world is the Ninth and ours is the Source. Realistically I'd say his people's history on that subject is a good few thousand years older than that: their knowledge of dimensional travel and theory traces back to the lalafel of Aloalo back in the Endless Frost, and who knows how much they knew, or from where. There's plenty of room for Calyx to learn this fact independent of the Ascians, or at least so far removed that it's effectively independent, and that possibility has a lot more potential in it than I think you're giving it credit for.

Also, the Ascian plan doesn't work or make any sense anymore, because Zodiark is dead. Any surviving Ascians wouldn't benefit from any rejoinings, because the rejoinings were primarily towards the purpose of reforming Zodiark, the only thing that actually had the power to bring back their world. On top of that, the three people actually pushing for that agenda are also dead, and all evidence we have suggests that any red-maskers below them actually cared a whole lot less about that agenda than they were letting on. (I also have my doubts that dimensional fusion like Calyx is aiming for would actually be a capable 'rejoining' for Ascian purposes, but that's kind of a tertiary problem behind the others.)

I think that it's fundamentally a mistake to immediately assume that Calyx is in some way directly in league with the Ascians, or working towards their ends; there's no proper evidence for it, and honestly, it's much less interesting than much more plausible answers at this point. I think it's both much more likely, and much more compelling, that Calyx is entirely off on his own thing, that just happens to include a few notes that make us go 'there's more going on here than just one nerd with a plan'. Him being a puppet for the Ascians would just make him Thordan 2, and we didn't even like the first Thordan!

While I don't think Calyx is necessarily in league with the Ascians, I am pretty certain that his knowledge came from an Ascian. There was that very specifically placed quote from Y'shtola in 7.0 before we entered Living Memory: "Beyond lies an unknown reflection. Short of asking an Ascian, we unfortunately have no way of identifying which one it is." It makes sense, of course, given that the numbers were given to the reflections by the Ascians, it was a nomenclature entirely invented by them. As far as we know there isn't a universal physical frame of reference that would lead any independent researcher to name them in the same order, so the only other option would be coincidence, which obviously isn't the case.

You are right in that this knowledge may not be first-hand; it may have been from a third party that heard it from the Ascians originally, but I think Calyx is too methodical and science-oriented to take that information at face value and not confirm it with someone who would actually know it.

Either way, while an Ascian may not be involved anymore, there definitely at least was some level of Ascian involvement to Calyx's knowledge. Not to mention of course the heavy implications that it was Ascians who introduced Electrope to the Ninth with the intentions of having it tip towards lightning Aether to later be rejoined, but that's a different topic.

The ninth had a calamity, the thing that as far as we know ascians alone orchestrated.
Calyx was born prior to the calamity and his electrope, the stated subject of his genius, is of the same aspect as their calamity.
The terminology used ("Ninth") not only is that of the ascians, but there aren't even nine shards left for him to coincidentally assign his world 9th among 7ish remaining as of the milala/aloalan lalafell exodus.
The city of gold was explicity mentioned by Hades, one of the more prominent ascians who have spent 12k years meddling.

Given these points, it's hard to dismiss out of hand that Calyx may have had contact with ascians or ascian knowledge. Does this mean he's likely to put on a mask and start cackling? Probably not, but it would be interesting to see what the remains of the ascians are up to now that zodiark's gone. Would they continue under the belief that recombining the worlds would be beneficial for mankind, take up fishing and while away eternity, garden/foster a shard or something else entirely?

edit: I really have to stop wandering off before pressing send, or at least reload the page when I come back

I agree that Calyx is a real head scratcher. Lots of interesting ways he could go. With the “Azem of it all” also running through the last few patches, I have my suspicions his motivations may be “academic” to him, but “personal” to us.

Imagine a scenario where he is an Azem shard, or, possibly just intrigued by the concept of soul sundering and rejoining. In either scenario, we’re a fascinating case study for him. If Calyx is an Azem shard, then we’re a big “power up” for him, waiting to be harvested. Or, he could simply be fascinated with us and our slightly denser soul. Does a denser soul mean we offer more strength when consumed?

The problem is, it doesn’t seem like he has a soul, being one of the endless? He’d either need to have kept his body on ice, like Sphene, or know the whereabouts of his reincarnated soul shard (cough cough Milos?).

He could also simply want us as a way to unlock the Azem Crystal. He wouldn’t have to be an Azem shard in that case, but perhaps it would be easier if he was - hoping to absorb us and then use the crystal (and key?) for nefarious reflection hopping mad-science business…

I'm in the camp that I think Calyx, and Preservation are going to be defeated in Dawntrail, but what they know, and will do will have lasting repercussions on the story. I think Calyx gained his knowledge of the shard system from memories that have been seared onto the Dimensional Key because Venat used it to sunder the world. We know it has some Azem magic on it, but there is the possibility that it's not our Azem's magic. And we know the crystal is capable of dimensional travel, and fusion so it could be possible that it is able to sunder dimensions as well.

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Originally Posted by mallleable

I'm in the camp that I think Calyx, and Preservation are going to be defeated in Dawntrail, but what they know, and will do will have lasting repercussions on the story. I think Calyx gained his knowledge of the shard system from memories that have been seared onto the Dimensional Key because Venat used it to sunder the world. We know it has some Azem magic on it, but there is the possibility that it's not our Azem's magic. And we know the crystal is capable of dimensional travel, and fusion so it could be possible that it is able to sunder dimensions as well.

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Since it has the Azem logo on, that indicates it's something done in official capacity as the seat of Azem doesn't it? Think this was mentioned in Elpis regarding the masks or possibly shadowbringers in the dossal gate room. As Venat retired, it'd be pretty weird for her to use that mark on the dimension exploder assuming it was made after she retired and the Elpis bootstrap.
It also makes it a bit odd that it would react to the player-Azem crystal, which shouldn't have had anything to do with Venat, being made by Hades in memory of the dead Azem.

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Originally Posted by mallleable

I'm in the camp that I think Calyx, and Preservation are going to be defeated in Dawntrail, but what they know, and will do will have lasting repercussions on the story. I think Calyx gained his knowledge of the shard system from memories that have been seared onto the Dimensional Key because Venat used it to sunder the world. We know it has some Azem magic on it, but there is the possibility that it's not our Azem's magic. And we know the crystal is capable of dimensional travel, and fusion so it could be possible that it is able to sunder dimensions as well.

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The thing is that we really don't know all that much about Preservation still. Like, who is even part of it? Is it gonna turn out that Calyx is the only member left of Preservation? Are all the surviving members endless?
Unless Calyx is the only member left (which would be a little disappointing in my opinion) then they still need to introduce them before we can defeat them, and I don't think there's enough time to do that in 7.3.

Also I just realized, we're going to have a main scenario trial in 7.4 and 7.5, right? So do you think these trials would be related to Dawtrail still or would they already be in relation of the plotline leading to 8.0? It's just difficult to imagine that all of Dawntrail's story will wrap up in 7.3, as Yoshi P said, while knowing that there will still be main scenario trials in 7.4 and 7.5. This was never a problem in the past because the trial series was always separate...

I too would like to know more about Preservation, and worry 7.3 won’t be enough time to fully introduce them (if there is a them, and not just the brains of Calyx’s parents or some such hand-waivy thing).

However, maybe 7.3 is just wrapping up the Tural storyline, and the remaining patches leading into 8.0 will be similar to the Zero arc, but focus on Preservation? We do have a big empty zone that could be reused - and with Zero’s story, the developers weren’t afraid to introduce smaller zones, and then lock us out of them. (Still not sure why we can’t revisit Zero’s home. So odd.)

Thinking on Calyx - I wonder if we’re the villain in his eyes? Depending on how or from who he learned about sundering/reflections, he may have very strong opinions on Venat, and by extension, our WOLs.

After all, it was Venat’s self-admitted haphazard plan that left frail mortals with bodies susceptible to the elements. And Venat also left the Ascians around to cause trouble. Her answer to the problem of “save no one or save some” may seem deeply flawed to Calyx, leading him to mount his own series of “solutions.”

Does he partially blame us for his frail human body? Maybe not. But he might see us as accomplices to a cause he finds faulty to the core.

Calyx may wonder why Venat simply didn’t do what he did, and make the Endless?

(But what if those memory crystals that Emet made… including Azem’s makeshift one - are what inspired the Endless to begin with?)

Edit: Extra Thought
In some ways, aren’t Calyx’s creations, the Endless, an altered version of the Ancients’ idea of Concepts? Aether powered beings, who seem to have no “soul.” Hermes might want to have a word about shutting down Living Memory.

A thing to consider are the parallels with FF9's story. My prediction is that 7.3 is going to have Memoria as a dungeon, and Necron as a trial. Dawntrail's conflict will be resolved in 7.3. 7.4 will have The Festival of The Hunt as a dungeon (which will pair nicely with us rising to grand champion of the heavyweight tier.), but the trial is harder to pin down, maybe another Vidraal, a victory lap. Dawntrail ends here. 7.5 is even harder to guess as it is going to mostly be 8.0 set up.

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Originally Posted by Shookbeast

In some ways, aren’t Calyx’s creations, the Endless, an altered version of the Ancients’ idea of Concepts? Aether powered beings, who seem to have no “soul.” Hermes might want to have a word about shutting down Living Memory.

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The Endless are closer to the phenomenon explored in the Dark Knight quests where the aetherial residue (memories) of an individual—Fray Myste—etched into a job crystal manifests a facsimile of said individual in the presence of sufficient aether. Fray's situation differs from the Endless in that he was able to manifest at will and was largely limited to interacting with the WoL bearing the DRK job crystal, whereas which Endless were able to manifest was regulated by the Meso Terminal and that they could interact more directly with the environment.

Overall, we have fewer instances of the Ancients directly interacting with aetherial residue (memories) until the Convocation and Venat went about their plans to save the star. I would suspect that they archived an individual's memories before they chose to return to the aetherial sea, but AFAIK that isn't stated outright. However, what we see the Ascians do with the convocation crystals to restore their numbers (as Emet-Selch did to Amon, restoring Fandaniel, and as Mitron attempted to do to Gaia) is more akin to using stored aetherial residue to stamp memories and personality onto an individual, which would be akin to trying to overwrite a living individual with the data of an Endless.

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Originally Posted by Levinphos

The Endless are closer to the phenomenon explored in the Dark Knight quests where the aetherial residue (memories) of an individual—Fray Myste—etched into a job crystal manifests a facsimile of said individual in the presence of sufficient aether. Fray's situation differs from the Endless in that he was able to manifest at will and was largely limited to interacting with the WoL bearing the DRK job crystal, whereas which Endless were able to manifest was regulated by the Meso Terminal and that they could interact more directly with the environment.

Overall, we have fewer instances of the Ancients directly interacting with aetherial residue (memories) until the Convocation and Venat went about their plans to save the star. I would suspect that they archived an individual's memories before they chose to return to the aetherial sea, but AFAIK that isn't stated outright. However, what we see the Ascians do with the convocation crystals to restore their numbers (as Emet-Selch did to Amon, restoring Fandaniel, and as Mitron attempted to do to Gaia) is more akin to using stored aetherial residue to stamp memories and personality onto an individual, which would be akin to trying to overwrite a living individual with the data of an Endless.

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How scary that would be, if it were weaponized…

I suppose it’s also similar in concept, if not in execution, to the souls that were waiting to be brought back with Zodiark. In that case though, they were literal souls waiting for bodies, where as the Endless are copies of personalities with no current plans to take over bodies.

Does Calyx truly want a world without flesh, and only digital personalities? Or will we find out he’s a villain who is more “do what I say, not what I do.”

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Originally Posted by fulminating

Since it has the Azem logo on, that indicates it's something done in official capacity as the seat of Azem doesn't it? Think this was mentioned in Elpis regarding the masks or possibly shadowbringers in the dossal gate room. As Venat retired, it'd be pretty weird for her to use that mark on the dimension exploder assuming it was made after she retired and the Elpis bootstrap.
It also makes it a bit odd that it would react to the player-Azem crystal, which shouldn't have had anything to do with Venat, being made by Hades in memory of the dead Azem.

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And that's why I think there is a possibility it's not of Ancient creation. Why would our Azem make a device that is capable of dimensional fusion which would undo Venat's sundering? And how would pre-sundered Azem know how to make such a device that works in a world they are not, and will not be a part of? And on a meta level, Azem leaving our character the gift of a device that is capable of traveling anywhere is kind of game breaking. Which leads me to believe that our Azem or Venat during her time as Azem found the device during their adventures, and maybe put a protective seal on it.

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Originally Posted by mallleable

And that's why I think there is a possibility it's not of Ancient creation. Why would our Azem make a device that is capable of dimensional fusion which would undo Venat's sundering? And how would pre-sundered Azem know how to make such a device that works in a world they are not, and will not be a part of? And on a meta level, Azem leaving our character the gift of a device that is capable of traveling anywhere is kind of game breaking. Which leads me to believe that our Azem or Venat during her time as Azem found the device during their adventures, and maybe put a protective seal on it.

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I agree it’s suspicious. That’s part of the reason why I think it’ll turn out our WOL or someone from our team is responsible for the key due to time travel shenanigans.

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Originally Posted by mallleable

And that's why I think there is a possibility it's not of Ancient creation. Why would our Azem make a device that is capable of dimensional fusion which would undo Venat's sundering? And how would pre-sundered Azem know how to make such a device that works in a world they are not, and will not be a part of? And on a meta level, Azem leaving our character the gift of a device that is capable of traveling anywhere is kind of game breaking. Which leads me to believe that our Azem or Venat during her time as Azem found the device during their adventures, and maybe put a protective seal on it.

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Actually, it's a fair assumption that its chief purpose is dimensional travel, not fusion; the lalafel didn't graft Aloalo Island onto the Ninth, they traveled there. To ask 'why would Azem make a tool capable of dimensional fusion' is probably like asking 'why would the Wright Brothers create something capable of destroying a building': they didn't, other people brought the creation to that conclusion.

...except that there's a different problem that's also at play with this presumption, that we also hit if we're talking about dimensional travel: the other dimensions did not exist at the time Azem was around. Why create a tool with the express purpose of traveling to a location that literally doesn't exist? Especially given we're not exactly talking about seasoned geniuses in the subject; I don't even know who in Ancient society would be able to predict where the shards would be on a dimensional-physical level (which I can only imagine would be unfathomably difficult, you can't exactly point on a map and go 'there'), but I wouldn't put that bet on Azem.

This is why my suspicion with the key is that it wasn't made by Azem: it was made afterwards, by people evoking Azem's symbol and story after it had faded into legend. That makes a lot more sense to me; the other shards confirmably exist at that point, and the key isn't realistically that much of a leap beyond later tech we've seen. It'd have to be from a group we haven't seen before, but there's a lot of gaps in the game's worldbuilding to fit new, interesting locations.

Also it'd mean we wouldn't get a rehash of the least interesting zone in Endwalker to me, and that'd be great too.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Actually, it's a fair assumption that its chief purpose is dimensional travel, not fusion; the lalafel didn't graft Aloalo Island onto the Ninth, they traveled there. To ask 'why would Azem make a tool capable of dimensional fusion' is probably like asking 'why would the Wright Brothers create something capable of destroying a building': they didn't, other people brought the creation to that conclusion.

...except that there's a different problem that's also at play with this presumption, that we also hit if we're talking about dimensional travel: the other dimensions did not exist at the time Azem was around. Why create a tool with the express purpose of traveling to a location that literally doesn't exist? Especially given we're not exactly talking about seasoned geniuses in the subject; I don't even know who in Ancient society would be able to predict where the shards would be on a dimensional-physical level (which I can only imagine would be unfathomably difficult, you can't exactly point on a map and go 'there'), but I wouldn't put that bet on Azem.

This is why my suspicion with the key is that it wasn't made by Azem: it was made afterwards, by people evoking Azem's symbol and story after it had faded into legend. That makes a lot more sense to me; the other shards confirmably exist at that point, and the key isn't realistically that much of a leap beyond later tech we've seen. It'd have to be from a group we haven't seen before, but there's a lot of gaps in the game's worldbuilding to fit new, interesting locations.

Also it'd mean we wouldn't get a rehash of the least interesting zone in Endwalker to me, and that'd be great too.

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Or another faction who know how to navigate the interdimensional rift.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Actually, it's a fair assumption that its chief purpose is dimensional travel, not fusion; the lalafel didn't graft Aloalo Island onto the Ninth, they traveled there. To ask 'why would Azem make a tool capable of dimensional fusion' is probably like asking 'why would the Wright Brothers create something capable of destroying a building': they didn't, other people brought the creation to that conclusion.

...except that there's a different problem that's also at play with this presumption, that we also hit if we're talking about dimensional travel: the other dimensions did not exist at the time Azem was around. Why create a tool with the express purpose of traveling to a location that literally doesn't exist? Especially given we're not exactly talking about seasoned geniuses in the subject; I don't even know who in Ancient society would be able to predict where the shards would be on a dimensional-physical level (which I can only imagine would be unfathomably difficult, you can't exactly point on a map and go 'there'), but I wouldn't put that bet on Azem.

This is why my suspicion with the key is that it wasn't made by Azem: it was made afterwards, by people evoking Azem's symbol and story after it had faded into legend. That makes a lot more sense to me; the other shards confirmably exist at that point, and the key isn't realistically that much of a leap beyond later tech we've seen. It'd have to be from a group we haven't seen before, but there's a lot of gaps in the game's worldbuilding to fit new, interesting locations.

Also it'd mean we wouldn't get a rehash of the least interesting zone in Endwalker to me, and that'd be great too.

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There’s always Ultima. That’s also a theory being put forward, and maybe it has some legs? Do we know if Venat made up the idea of Sundering/Reflections all on her own… or did she maybe encounter something that gave her the idea that inter-dimensional reflections/travel were possible?

And if that’s the case - maaaaaaybe Calyx didn’t learn about reflections from the Ascians - but instead learned from a version of Ultima?

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Originally Posted by Shookbeast

Do we know if Venat made up the idea of Sundering/Reflections all on her own… or did she maybe encounter something that gave her the idea that inter-dimensional reflections/travel were possible?

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The answer to that is time-paradoxical. Regardless of whether or not she or another person could have come up with the idea itself, chronologically speaking we gave her that idea. We didn't give her the idea of how it could have worked, and it's entirely possible she or one of her allies could've come up with that answer independently (and they definitely did come up with a lot of stuff independently), but if we're asking where she got the baseline idea, it was us.

I think overall with this, people are getting too stuck on the Ancient/Ascians, despite at-best tenuous evidence. I think there's more evidence against Calyx being directly involved with the Ascians than there is evidence for (if anything I think he'd directly oppose them), and the case for the key being directly Ancient-related might be even worse. But here we are, seeing people dig a hole because the map they drew themselves says there's treasure at the bottom.

I have to agree, I hope going forward the story isn't super reliant on the Ancients, and time paradoxes. Plus, I think it would make Calyx's character a lot more interesting if he figured out shard system on his own instead of just 'an Ascian told him.'

The ascians definitely operated on the ninth and we know ardbert found out from elidibus that he was from the first shard. They didn’t exactly treat it as secret information, and calyx is a pretty big suspect in who they’d want to influence. It just seems unnecessary, like working the bus timetable out from first principles when you can just go to the bus stop and look, even if you decide walking would be better afterwards. (This is an extended metaphor, mucking around with souls doesn’t really seem like the kind of thing that would be approved by ascian higher management, even if shard obliteration would probably sort it out).

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

The answer to that is time-paradoxical. Regardless of whether or not she or another person could have come up with the idea itself, chronologically speaking we gave her that idea. We didn't give her the idea of how it could have worked, and it's entirely possible she or one of her allies could've come up with that answer independently (and they definitely did come up with a lot of stuff independently), but if we're asking where she got the baseline idea, it was us.

I think overall with this, people are getting too stuck on the Ancient/Ascians, despite at-best tenuous evidence. I think there's more evidence against Calyx being directly involved with the Ascians than there is evidence for (if anything I think he'd directly oppose them), and the case for the key being directly Ancient-related might be even worse. But here we are, seeing people dig a hole because the map they drew themselves says there's treasure at the bottom.

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We told her - but I’m not sure that confirms the concept/philosophy of dimensional travel/sundering wasn’t a thing before we arrived back in time. And there is Ultima to consider…

Edit:
But more so, what I was getting at is that it’s possible Calyx didn’t learn about shard travel from an Ascian, but rather from something like Ultima.

I just thought it would be cool if Venat possibly learned the theory in the same way. That would put Calyx on par with the Ancients, without having to go to them for information.

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Originally Posted by mallleable

Plus, I think it would make Calyx's character a lot more interesting if he figured out shard system on his own instead of just 'an Ascian told him.'

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Again though, the numbers given to each shard, and calling them reflections and source in the first place, was a nomenclature entirely invented by the Ascians. The numbers are arbitrary, it's not something you can just "find out on your own" given enough research. By all means, he could have found out about the shard system on his own, but he wouldn't be able to know that his shard is called the ninth.

Therefore, the origin of this information has to be an Ascian, and Calyx either got it straight from one of them or from a third party that heard it from them.

The interesting question is whether this was an information willingly given to Calyx by an Ascian, which would imply that the Ascians were attempting to groom him to work for their ends, just like how they did with Unukalhai in Heavensward, or if Calyx took this information by force. Could he have defeated an Ascian and taken a peek into his memories? This could have been the moment that Preservation learned about the existence of other reflections, leading them to take a sudden change of focus towards taking Aether from other reflections and designing that portal to the source.

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Originally Posted by Cassar

Again though, the numbers given to each shard, and calling them reflections and source in the first place, was a nomenclature entirely invented by the Ascians. The numbers are arbitrary, it's not something you can just "find out on your own" given enough research. By all means, he could have found out about the shard system on his own, but he wouldn't be able to know that his shard is called the ninth.

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The numbers aren't necessarily arbitrary. According to Ardbert (who I trust just by virtue of 'why would the writers have him be wrong about this') they're essentially numbered by proximity, and the First is the First simply because it's the closest to the Source. So you could intuit the shard Alexandria is on to be called 'the Ninth' if looking at all available evidence. In that situation you couldn't necessarily intuit that the Source is called the Source, though.

My earnest best guess is that Calyx's information is a few degrees removed, and that the route might be from the millala, which would make that information thousands of years old. But in part, I most believe that because it puts the source of this information as essentially irrelevant, which I actually think is the most useful way to think about Calyx; I think he's being set up as a force in his own right, and while I doubt how he learned this information will mean nothing, I do think that it's far more relevant and far more compelling to be thinking about him as independent anyway.

Including the source, there’s 6 shards left, 7 destroyed and the void/thirteenth. When the milala left in the fifth calamity, there were 8 and the void with one in the process of being destroyed. By the time krile was shoved through the dimension hole it was down to seven and the void. As the void is the furthest out if number is tied to proximity alone, we can ignore it for these purposes.

It is very hard to conclude that calyx was alive at any point where there were nine shards. Even the milala would have to miscount by calling the source “1st” or include the 13th before the ninth.

E: The milala could have had lahabrea posessing their leader (the speaker) and granting information they shouldn’t have worked out alone and designing that spooky mask room for them. As a scientist I’m sure he’d have interest in seeing what happens if there’s an isolated population of already partially recombined people introduced to another unrecombined world and/or shielded from a rejoining. Weird that the key would be left in their care when though. Even the ascians had to be dead to cross the rift in their crystals.

Edit edit: destroyed might have been an enthusiastic term in the first paragraph, rejoined may have been better.
It doesn’t change anything about calyx, thordan was pretty cool for outplaying the ascians and right up until he turned himself into a pickle did seem to have some idea what was going on. I mean really killing the shadowy manipulator guys and then immediately doing what they wanted him to do is just not a great note to end on.

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Originally Posted by Cassar

Again though, the numbers given to each shard, and calling them reflections and source in the first place, was a nomenclature entirely invented by the Ascians. The numbers are arbitrary, it's not something you can just "find out on your own" given enough research. By all means, he could have found out about the shard system on his own, but he wouldn't be able to know that his shard is called the ninth.

Therefore, the origin of this information has to be an Ascian, and Calyx either got it straight from one of them or from a third party that heard it from them.

The interesting question is whether this was an information willingly given to Calyx by an Ascian, which would imply that the Ascians were attempting to groom him to work for their ends, just like how they did with Unukalhai in Heavensward, or if Calyx took this information by force. Could he have defeated an Ascian and taken a peek into his memories? This could have been the moment that Preservation learned about the existence of other reflections, leading them to take a sudden change of focus towards taking Aether from other reflections and designing that portal to the source.

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And that's why I'm starting to think The Key has ties to Venat. What could have happened is that when he, and Preservation were tinkering with the crystal to turn it into The Key, and they get forced to have an Echo-like flashback, and get front row seats to Hydaelyn sundering the world into 14 shards. They could probe further, and unlock the memories of The Milalla traveling from The Source world to The Ninth. It would just be about confirming what they saw.

But why is has Azem magic on it, and not 'Venat magic,' aside form the fact that Venat was a former Azem, is another mystery.

Come to think of it, if it is Venat, then they technically would still be getting their info from an Ascian, just not directly.

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Originally Posted by mallleable

And that's why I'm starting to think The Key has ties to Venat. What could have happened is that when he, and Preservation were tinkering with the crystal to turn it into The Key, and they get forced to have an Echo-like flashback, and get front row seats to Hydaelyn sundering the world into 14 shards. They could probe further, and unlock the memories of The Milalla traveling from The Source world to The Ninth. It would just be about confirming what they saw.

But why is has Azem magic on it, and not 'Venat magic,' aside form the fact that Venat was a former Azem, is another mystery.

Come to think of it, if it is Venat, then they technically would still be getting their info from an Ascian, just not directly.

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I tend to think they got the information from an Ascian, although your theory has some merit.

Also we are dealing with a failed rejoining, the ninth still exists. I wonder if Preservation was originally the ninth's version of the scions/wol they foiled the Ascians and then decided to explore further.

I wonder whether the key reacts to a sundered Azem, or is reacting to Azem's Crystal.

Forgive my somewhat disconnected ramblings.

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Originally Posted by JherekCarnelian

I tend to think they got the information from an Ascian, although your theory has some merit.

Also we are dealing with a failed rejoining, the ninth still exists. I wonder if Preservation was originally the ninth's version of the scions/wol they foiled the Ascians and then decided to explore further.

I wonder whether the key reacts to a sundered Azem, or is reacting to Azem's Crystal.

Forgive my somewhat disconnected ramblings.

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Is it possible someone or some group on the 9th attempted a self-inflicted rejoining? No Ascians involved? Maybe years of research into this attempt is what led to a system where memories would be “preserved” even though the planet was destroyed in the process? But to what end? Body snatching on the Source once the rejoining was complete?

Or, did Preservation stop the rejoining as you say, and then interrogate the Ascian responsible?

Do we know for sure that there's no more civilization in the ninth? Because the Living Memory zone is in the ninth, and you can clearly see a beautiful cloudy sky with sun shining and everything. Makes you wonder, with all this electrope technology some of the citizens from the ninth could easily have built a spaceship and fled to space or to the moon or whatever.

Also, even if the ninth is now devoid of all human civilization, Calyx's terminal(s) surely must be there somewhere, right?

A random question/thought

Is Calyx's VA the same as XVI's Ultima's VA?

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Originally Posted by Cassar

Also, even if the ninth is now devoid of all human civilization, Calyx's terminal(s) surely must be there somewhere, right?

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It could just as easily be hidden somewhere in the Everkeep. We already saw how Calyx utilized the Underkeep for clandestine purposes, so it is just as likely his terminal(s) could be hidden somewhere in the many levels of the Everkeep we haven't seen.

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Originally Posted by Cassar

Do we know for sure that there's no more civilization in the ninth? Because the Living Memory zone is in the ninth, and you can clearly see a beautiful cloudy sky with sun shining and everything. Makes you wonder, with all this electrope technology some of the citizens from the ninth could easily have built a spaceship and fled to space or to the moon or whatever.

Also, even if the ninth is now devoid of all human civilization, Calyx's terminal(s) surely must be there somewhere, right?

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We actually don't know for certain that there isn't someone else around on the Ninth; the subject has never come up to confirm or deny it. Which is a bit of an odd gap: we've never even incidentally gotten a line like 'before Lindblum fell they did X', the other parts of the Ninth just sort of exist only in abstract.

I'm not sure if that's a clue, or just storytelling efficiency. The story of the Ninth is only ever a story about Alexandria, so what happened to Lindblum just doesn't matter, in the same way that specifics about cities outside of Amaurot don't matter to the story of the Ancients. But unlike the Ancient world, the Ninth does have named locations, so it's entirely possible that might be setup for an execution somewhere down the line.

The Ascians were a thousand times smarter than this little brat. When he learns how to snap something into existence, we'll talk.

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Originally Posted by Veritas-Ancora

The Ascians were a thousand times smarter than this little brat. When he learns how to snap something into existence, we'll talk.

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That's not a particularly impressive ability. Omega has it as a side function and a little alien guy from the Hildibrandquest has it installed on his ship.

Another specific that keeps rattling around in my head is why The Ninth? Why did The Key take the Milalla from The Source to The Ninth? It could have taken them anywhere.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

That's not a particularly impressive ability. Omega has it as a side function and a little alien guy from the Hildibrandquest has it installed on his ship.

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Not to mention that Emet-Selch himself was utterly impressed by G'raha Tia after learning that he managed to transport the entirety of the crystal tower across time and space. Not even he was capable of doing anything like that. Imagine what Calyx could do if he had access to that key!

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Originally Posted by Cassar

Not to mention that Emet-Selch himself was utterly impressed by G'raha Tia after learning that he managed to transport the entirety of the crystal tower across time and space. Not even he was capable of doing anything like that. Imagine what Calyx could do if he had access to that key!

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Hell, if the Ascians had a routine, group-wide character trait, it was underestimating and then getting outsmarted by everybody around them. Elidibus was beaten by the Crystal Exarch springing a trap with the Crystal Tower... while Elidibus had a crystal that let him control the Crystal Tower and know how to use it. It takes an impressive level of hubris to fall for that one.

Also, Calyx can conjure things into existence with even less effort than Emet. He doesn't even need to snap to make that tablet of his appear and disappear! If Emet's dumb party trick is really our bar, Calyx is clearing it without even any theatrics.

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Originally Posted by mallleable

Another specific that keeps rattling around in my head is why The Ninth? Why did The Key take the Milalla from The Source to The Ninth? It could have taken them anywhere.

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It's entirely possible that the key can only do that specific route; we've never seen it do any other, so who's to say it's not just a key to specifically a Source-Ninth connection and that's it? That its creators only ever figured out that one connection?

But if it can go to any shard and they just went to the Ninth... well, what's wrong with the Ninth? The Ninth is a perfectly good shard. It's entirely possible they could've gone anywhere, and that the decision to go to the Ninth wasn't actually one made for any deeply important reason: it was just there.

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Originally Posted by Cassar

Not to mention that Emet-Selch himself was utterly impressed by G'raha Tia after learning that he managed to transport the entirety of the crystal tower across time and space. Not even he was capable of doing anything like that. Imagine what Calyx could do if he had access to that key!

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>if only he had an artefact of someone else’s origin he’d be so impressive

???

The electrope genius thing is more interesting to me; is he a ghost in the machine, something similar to 7.0sphene or another thing entirely? He doesn’t seem to be entirely physically there yet also tries to stay in the shadows. It would be neat albeit somewhat improbable if he’s entirely invisible to those with regulators. In some ways electrope being inscribed rock has some similarities with the giant frog guys’s memorial stones, him existing beyond death as an entity within it would be an interesting parallel.