Trust tanks

Edit: There was some confusion, this post is not about NPC tanks. This is about trusts teaching players bad tanking habits


So i've been doing some more roulettes recently and i have noticed a bit of an unusual thing about some players.
Basicly tanks that overall play decently with their mitigations etc, however once you look at the animations they're doing you will notice something very peculiar. They are doing 1 or 2 aoe attacks and then switch to their single target rotation.

I believe that trusts are at fault with this, as npcs in them dont do aoe attacks, so you're better off just attacking what they are attacking, however to a newer player or someone who is not experienced with tanking, this is a big trap and it makes the party's experience worse for it.

Personally i've had a situation where i ripped aggro on one of the mobs, doing my normal summoner aoe rotation. The tank did not get the aggro back at all, i had the mob on me till it died, despite standing pretty much on top of that tank.

So my question is, should the game be more forceful in teaching players how to behave in dungeons, or maybe change how trusts work?

I know that trusts are bad on purpose because people just afk farm them, but wouldnt it be better to just reduce the rewards when doing it this way and have the npc be actually good?

It could also be that the players haven’t realized that it’s mathematically better to aoe. I used to use single target attacks in dungeons when I started playing the game because I thought if individual enemies died faster, it would be better since then mobs will do less damage overall. My friends had to explain to me why that wasn’t the best way to do things.

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Originally Posted by ThurinTurambar

So my question is, should the game be more forceful in teaching players how to behave in dungeons, or maybe change how trusts work?

I know that trusts are bad on purpose because people just afk farm them, but wouldnt it be better to just reduce the rewards when doing it this way and have the npc be actually good?

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Having better tutorials would be really good, and having trusts play properly would be great too. Some people use trusts to learn the game, after all. If trusts need to be “bad” then maybe they could do AOEs but with nerfed damage.

Isn't trusts something only a tiny marginal amount of players ever do?

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Originally Posted by Carighan

Isn't trusts something only a tiny marginal amount of players ever do?

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Only use trust when I know my dps queue will be long (i.e. late at night) or going to dungeon blind the first time.

Trust are just so slow, even a 3 players party could almost be faster to clear than trust

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Originally Posted by Carighan

Isn't trusts something only a tiny marginal amount of players ever do?

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That might be the perception as you dont really see or hear from those players. There is no SE provided data on this, so trusts could be used by half of sprouts and you wouldnt even notice.
I've had a few encounters with such players in roulettes hence this post.

I only use trust for minion grind

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Originally Posted by ThurinTurambar

So i've been doing some more roulettes recently and i have noticed a bit of an unusual thing about some players.
Basicly tanks that overall play decently with their mitigations etc, however once you look at the animations they're doing you will notice something very peculiar. They are doing 1 or 2 aoe attacks and then switch to their single target rotation.

I believe that trusts are at fault with this, as npcs in them dont do aoe attacks, so you're better off just attacking what they are attacking, however to a newer player or someone who is not experienced with tanking, this is a big trap and it makes the party's experience worse for it.

Personally i've had a situation where i ripped aggro on one of the mobs, doing my normal summoner aoe rotation. The tank did not get the aggro back at all, i had the mob on me till it died, despite standing pretty much on top of that tank.

So my question is, should the game be more forceful in teaching players how to behave in dungeons, or maybe change how trusts work?

I know that trusts are bad on purpose because people just afk farm them, but wouldnt it be better to just reduce the rewards when doing it this way and have the npc be actually good?

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In this case you shall have a look to the beginner arena. It clearly states out for DPS roles to do two chores:
1) If Adds Spawn for and go for your healer -> Take them out
2) Attack the Tanks Target

It is literally described in the tutorial for beginners on how DPS shall work in Dungeons.
You can of course disagree with it (and would be correct) - but then it would force a different thinking on dev level. As long as this is the concept of teaching new players is it of course the same rule they follow with any in build functions.

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Originally Posted by Sorainthy

In this case you shall have a look to the beginner arena. It clearly states out for DPS roles to do two chores:
1) If Adds Spawn for and go for your healer -> Take them out
2) Attack the Tanks Target

It is literally described in the tutorial for beginners on how DPS shall work in Dungeons.
You can of course disagree with it (and would be correct) - but then it would force a different thinking on dev level. As long as this is the concept of teaching new players is it of course the same rule they follow with any in build functions.

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Just to make sure this is understood, im not talking about npc tanks.
Im talking about players on tank role that dont do aoe and lose aggro because other party members do their normal aoe rotation.

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Originally Posted by ThurinTurambar

Just to make sure this is understood, im not talking about npc tanks.
Im talking about players on tank role that dont do aoe and lose aggro because other party members do their normal aoe rotation.

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thats because people are unable to read their tooltips and do simple math.

Most tank AoEs are a gain on 3, so if they are doing single target when there's only two mobs left, they are playing correctly.

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Originally Posted by ThurinTurambar

Just to make sure this is understood, im not talking about npc tanks.
Im talking about players on tank role that dont do aoe and lose aggro because other party members do their normal aoe rotation.

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Ahhh! :D

Yeah makes sense now - thanks.
In my tank rotation do I always check the dmg I do with single target double combo and then I do the aoe rotation (1 or 2 depends of scale down). Where the DMG is higher I am using that one on 2-3 adds. If for a reason the single one is do I still put it some Aoe Casts cause aggro.

If more then 3 adds... well aoe.

I did a lot of trusts when EW and DT originally came out. I like leveling the characters up and getting that title. I also enjoy playing various other tank/DPS jobs that I don't normally play. And with the short queues, it checks a lot of boxes for me.

Generally speaking, I found that the trust tanks at those levels can handle both pulls with minimal issues. I'll double pull for them and then they run up and aggro stuff. It seems that trust healers don't seem to run out MP. I will say trust tanks and healers can't figure out stairs. Fighting a group of enemies on the stars seems to throw off the algorithm used by trusts. It is like the stairs LOS them from the healers.

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Originally Posted by dspguy

I did a lot of trusts when EW and DT originally came out. I like leveling the characters up and getting that title. I also enjoy playing various other tank/DPS jobs that I don't normally play. And with the short queues, it checks a lot of boxes for me.

Generally speaking, I found that the trust tanks at those levels can handle both pulls with minimal issues. I'll double pull for them and then they run up and aggro stuff. It seems that trust healers don't seem to run out MP. I will say trust tanks and healers can't figure out stairs. Fighting a group of enemies on the stars seems to throw off the algorithm used by trusts. It is like the stairs LOS them from the healers.

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Again this is not about NPC tanks.

This is about PLAYERS that learned to tank via trusts and do it wrong because of it

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Originally Posted by Carighan

Isn't trusts something only a tiny marginal amount of players ever do?

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They have to be leveled for the achievement, so it doubles as a way to get exp/gear/drops. Also, the trusts manage to clear Skydeep Cenote almost as fast as a normal group. I only know this because that card took 30+ tries to get.

I use trust all the time cus of waiting for dps queue. All my trust are level 100 and I can afk whenever I need to lol

I also noticed running that dungeon with trusts as a tank doesn't count towards the tank achievements. After a while I switched to healer and queue'd with people. Good thing the card isn't a roll!

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Originally Posted by Carighan

Isn't trusts something only a tiny marginal amount of players ever do?

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I know alot of people including myself who do a dungeon for the first time with trusts
I didn't do that in dawntrail though cause the story didn't interest me enough to care what the characters had to say

Something I seen when leveling GNB with trusts is that NPC healer never focuses entirely on healing. It kinda tries to force me to pull only a pack a time (or try to make better use of cooldowns, including invuln).