I don't think SE consider D4 RDM in the mechanics in this patch

Some mechanics designs in this patch are comfortable for rdm who are in fake melee, but D4 rdm is the bad in somehow. For example, playing M7S in D4 rdm is not able to melee combo in phase 3 tether, the only thing I can do is AOE combo. The burst cannot delay, because of tether stuff. Many people decide to play blm/pct, because of bad experience in D4 rdm.

Oh no, another unique job aspect they can quickly erase! Get to it, devs!!!

we've listened to your feedback, red mage melee combo now removed in place you get nothing!

please look forward to it.

yes. time to play other casters.

I assume by D4 you mean R2? Sorry I retired from savage so I'm not familiar enough with M7S.
Is it a problem specific only to that spot, or is it also problematic with other ranged spots?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valence

I assume by D4 you mean R2? Sorry I retired from savage so I'm not familiar enough with M7S.
Is it a problem specific only to that spot, or is it also problematic with other ranged spots?

---

D4/R2 is the default caster slot, some strats RDM can be better in R1/D3 but then you have to convince the physical ranged to swap with you which is just as likely as being able to convince people to let you fake melee in a double caster party

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rithy255

we've listened to your feedback, red mage melee combo now removed in place you get nothing!

---

Nah that's too much effort. They'll just give the combo 25y range.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

D4/R2 is the default caster slot, some strats RDM can be better in R1/D3 but then you have to convince the physical ranged to swap with you which is just as likely as being able to convince people to let you fake melee in a double caster party

---

How low has this raidplan brainrotten community has fallen if people can't even adjust for a comfier run...
Do they use D1, D2, etc on NA or something? I've never ever heard of that position sign being used?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valence

Do they use D1, D2, etc on NA or something? I've never ever heard of that position sign being used?

---

I believe JP macros typically use D1-D4 for the damage dealers (DPS), with expected sub-roles for each.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valence

How low has this raidplan brainrotten community has fallen if people can't even adjust for a comfier run...
Do they use D1, D2, etc on NA or something? I've never ever heard of that position sign being used?

---

NA does M1 M2 R1 (Phys Ranged) and R2 (Caster) and has done this for years since raidplans caught on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mierkun

Some mechanics designs in this patch are comfortable for rdm who are in fake melee, but D4 rdm is the bad in somehow. For example, playing M7S in D4 rdm is not able to melee combo in phase 3 tether, the only thing I can do is AOE combo. The burst cannot delay, because of tether stuff. Many people decide to play blm/pct, because of bad experience in D4 rdm.

---

It's definitely super weird how the melee combo just doesn't work with some of the mechanics expected strategies, Caster Baiting Manta while bursting down the first pack of Adds before first Jabberwock doesn't feel the greatest on RDM because at best you can single target hit the manta and dump the AoE finishers on the adds to help BUT... If the adds don't die, you have to skip out on Moulinet again which will lower your overall AoE damage and thus cause the face to take longer. It's super weird and, RDM likely wasn't considered when the Strat was made or the mechanic was designed.

Another case is when the party is split in lava phase of m2s, Don't expect to melee combo at all until that entire phase is done, this going to make faster rdm kills a pain when rdms want to dump resources before the boss dies. it's less of an issue for Prog when gear is low but will become obnoxious as things start to die faster

Ride the Waves in p1 has 2 strats both of which force your rdm away from the boss especially if you're trying to give the melee uptime for the mechanic

The penultimate burst phase in brute abominator also gets tricky because you have to be at the wall and you can only hit the spawning add for a little while before the tank pulls it away to do the quarry swamp portion of that mechanic which of course means you're not getting 2 Melee combos in the burst window on that front.

I hate to say it but i think Red Mage needs a second Melee combo thats ranged based so that this stops being an issue, Like the Redoublement combo can get buffed if you do this ranged combo prior and the idea is to alternate between the 2 combos. At least with this, Red mage will always have the ability to do it's core loop without completely stalling it's rotation and shifting it out of burst. think of it as a "Storm's path" combo and Storm's Eye combo that the job swaps between for max potency

All of this sounds pretty positive?

As in, you can't just blindly press your melee combo. That's good. Now let's apply this design to the other 20+ jobs, because hell I'm tired of just doing everything as the button lights up...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

I hate to say it but i think Red Mage needs a second Melee combo thats ranged based so that this stops being an issue

---

I was joking. This was satire. It was meant to mock the absolutely silly changes done to other jobs, such as removing the pets of Summoners and Scholars, making Black Mage playable instead of the base class you play before getting your Picto job stone, turning Bard into whatever this archer with a harp is meant to be instead of a Bard, etc.

You taking it serious makes it partially better satire, granted. But it's also worrying...

listen, i don't care about the official forum's hard on for complexity and all that non-sense. I'm just here to play the game and these are issues because the solution to these things often require a RDM to compete with a melee for the 4th slot which is not reasonable due it's low damage compared to even the weakest melee and the fact that the consequences forces red mages most potent abilities to be misaligned with the rest of the classes. It sucks, it's the type of thing an already weaker job doesn't need. Having an alternative ranged combo that the class can be designed around abusing can be a fantastic way to resolve these issues and give rdm a more dynamic combo than just do the same melee combo 8 times before the boss dies.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Carighan

All of this sounds pretty positive?

As in, you can't just blindly press your melee combo. That's good. Now let's apply this design to the other 20+ jobs, because hell I'm tired of just doing everything as the button lights up...

---

So long as fights proceed on strict timelines, it doesn't matter how jobs are designed. For any given encounter, you'll still be pushing your buttons in the same order every time. The fact that one encounter might need one order, and another encounter needs another order, doesn't change much.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

So long as fights proceed on strict timelines, it doesn't matter how jobs are designed. For any given encounter, you'll still be pushing your buttons in the same order every time. The fact that one encounter might need one order, and another encounter needs another order, doesn't change much.

---

You're right insofar that the existing random elements of Red Mage ought to have a bigger impact, precluding knowing that you'll generate enough energy to run the odd combo and the double combo every time. That might happen. Or not. But with a by-now 40% proc chance IIRC, that just evens out too much. An easy fix here would be to reduce the chance to 15% or 20% to get a proc, but increase the energy obtained from a proc by 100%-125% to compensate. Same energy gain over time, but it might be utterly skewed.

And again, this focus entirely on static rotations in job design is the problem. It needs to go. It precludes designing interesting gameplay in the first place.

RDM could get something that's like a reverse combo where you start with three instant ranged spells, and finish with a melee combo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Carighan

You're right insofar that the existing random elements of Red Mage ought to have a bigger impact, precluding knowing that you'll generate enough energy to run the odd combo and the double combo every time. That might happen. Or not. But with a by-now 40% proc chance IIRC, that just evens out too much. An easy fix here would be to reduce the chance to 15% or 20% to get a proc, but increase the energy obtained from a proc by 100%-125% to compensate. Same energy gain over time, but it might be utterly skewed.

And again, this focus entirely on static rotations in job design is the problem. It needs to go. It precludes designing interesting gameplay in the first place.

---

You’re playing the wrong the game, it’s not going to change and the game has always been this way, there was always a mathematical superior sequence of skills that lead to more damage, that’s not going to change this late in the games life.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Carighan

And again, this focus entirely on static rotations in job design is the problem. It needs to go. It precludes designing interesting gameplay in the first place.

---

This is backwards. Static encounters lead to static rotations. Dynamic encounters lead to dynamic use of skills. Throwing (more) RNG into every job's kit is hardly a solution, nor is it even necessary.

Look at PvP. There is certainly an optimal, static rotation if all you're doing is thwacking a striking dummy in Wolves' Den. But step into an arena, with the randomness and variability that is other players, and that static rotation is dead in the water. Same kit, but different encounter designs.

On the other hand, we have PvE, where SE has all but said that they wanted to design a certain kind of encounter this patch, so as a consequence, they changed BLM to better fit that design. SE's problem starts with the fact that they're fixated on a particular, singular style of encounter design.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

I'm just here to play the game and these are issues because the solution to these things often require a RDM to compete with a melee for the 4th slot

---

Source? You state it like this is obviously a big problem, so come on, is it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

which is not reasonable due it's low damage compared to even the weakest melee and the fact that the consequences forces red mages most potent abilities to be misaligned with the rest of the classes. It sucks, it's the type of thing an already weaker job doesn't need. Having an alternative ranged combo that the class can be designed around abusing can be a fantastic way to resolve these issues and give rdm a more dynamic combo than just do the same melee combo 8 times before the boss dies.

---

At that point, why even have a melee combo though. Since they equalized the potency between the flip and the melee, have you seen how often RDMs use the flip in actual content? Your supposed combo would do the same thing. There's no point keeping extra button bloat for a melee combo around, as you'd never want to utilize it. Or it's stronger, at which point you'll be right here complaining that you're being "forced" to use your weaker ranged combo or "forced" to misalign your actual melee combo. /shrug

I don't see a solution proposal, I see someone wanting to add complexity to try solve a problem with fight complexity by shifting it into the job they're playing. If your goal were to actually reduce complexity or keep it equal while improving red mage potential, you'd simply shift damage from the combo into the filler, including overhead for the burst potential reduced. Tuhdaaah, same damage in uptime fights, improved damage in disengagement fights. Increased damage in fights with breaks like Ultimates, too!

Too easy a solution? Not enough button bloat? Not complex enough for your hard on for complexity?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

This is backwards. Static encounters lead to static rotations. Dynamic encounters lead to dynamic use of skills. Throwing (more) RNG into every job's kit is hardly a solution, nor is it even necessary.

---

No, not really. Although we might be talking about different things. The type of class design is based on standing in front of a target dummy. Whether you can actually pull this "ideal" gameplay off or not in front of a specific boss is a separate issue. Note how people don't do a non-static rotation in fights that include strong randomization like Seat of Sacrifice EX.

A non-static-rotation means your job is principally based on procs, resource starvation, resource overflow or non-reliably effects leading to dynamic branch choice. This are then, just like a static rotation, further impacted by the fight design. I think we were just talking about different things. And I'd be on board for less static fights, I loved SoSEX, one of the best fights ever made. But it's an independent thing from what I want, which is classes not based on the static rotation archetype. That ought to be reserved to max 1 class per role, to contrast against all the non-static classes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Carighan

But it's an independent thing from what I want, which is classes not based on the static rotation archetype.

---

So long as encounters are centered around static timelines, the only thing such a class design brings to the table is, "well, I guess I stunk this run because my class's RNG didn't favor me." See also: The evolution of any class/job in FFXIV who's earlier designs featured RNG elements. Because, as I said before:

Quote:

---

SE's problem starts with the fact that they're fixated on a particular, singular style of encounter design.

---

You want to move away from the static rotation archetype? Hallelujah.

But by the evidence available to us, it seems clear that SE's first problem is encounter design, because that's all but their stated reason for smooshing every class/job into a static rotation. And the general praise for PvP proves the point that less static encounter design is a good thing, even in the presence of job kits with little or no RNG.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Carighan

I don't see a solution proposal, I see someone wanting to add complexity to try solve a problem with fight complexity by shifting it into the job they're playing. If your goal were to actually reduce complexity or keep it equal while improving red mage potential, you'd simply shift damage from the combo into the filler, including overhead for the burst potential reduced. Tuhdaaah, same damage in uptime fights, improved damage in disengagement fights. Increased damage in fights with breaks like Ultimates, too!

---

It's the exact opposite though, this doesn't add complexity. You're turning a currently tricky problem "Trying to execute your melee combo with no safe spot near the boss" into "Lol just ranged combo".
But yes, at that point just remove the actual melee combo from rdm because if potency on both is equal then "Lol just ranged combo" becomes the default anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absurdity

It's the exact opposite though, this doesn't add complexity. You're turning a currently tricky problem "Trying to execute your melee combo with no safe spot near the boss" into "Lol just ranged combo".
But yes, at that point just remove the actual melee combo from rdm because if potency on both is equal then "Lol just ranged combo" becomes the default anyway.

---

That was my point, exactly. If it's just about "Oh I cannot melee at the right times and clearly this is unfair and not okay" then the correct solution is to eliminate or factually-eliminate the melee combo (an opinion I do not share, if that wasn't obvious enough). Adding an extra ranged combo is absolutely pointless, because either way you're just standing at range, might as well just remove the melee combo entirely then?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valence

Is it a problem specific only to that spot, or is it also problematic with other ranged spots?

---

The mechanic in question has four players (decided by the strategy) tethered to the walls while the boss is in the middle. A tether deals damage over time, but stretching it will make the player take heavier damage. So usually the two healers and the two ranged DPS are hugging the walls and can’t get closer without taking very heavy damage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mierkun

In D4 rdm is not able to melee combo in phase 3 tether, the only thing I can do is AOE combo. The burst cannot delay, because of tether stuff.

---

Since the adds spawn at the walls around that time and they do nothing for a while, at the start of the burst window as RDM you have the option of using Manafication or 50 meter to hit your nearest add with your melee combo and then hitting the boss with the three finishers. However you’d have to do the math to see if this is worth it. It does more potency to the boss during this burst window if you just used your usual single target attacks during this time, lets you use Prefulgence during buffs if Manafication was used, and gives you a guaranteed proc if you don’t have them already, but spends 50 meter or a Manafication that could have been otherwise fully spent on hitting the boss if it was done at another time. Damaging the adds is unnecessary for this mechanic.

After that the adds will start moving to the tanks to attack them, and then you all you can do is your usual ranged attacks on the boss. Unless you have an Acceleration to spare (or have a Swiftcast and are willing to spend it there) for using Verthunder/aero and Grand Impact.

When a job is particularly bad in some fight, just dont play it then.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valence

I assume by D4 you mean R2? Sorry I retired from savage so I'm not familiar enough with M7S.
Is it a problem specific only to that spot, or is it also problematic with other ranged spots?

---

NA and JP use D1 D2 D3 D4 T1 T2 H1 H2 instead of M1 M2 R1 R2 MT OT H1 H2

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arohk

When a job is particularly bad in some fight, just dont play it then.

---

Exactly this. I want classes to be good at different things, and I want (some) fights to be brutally difficult.

This naturally means these fights will need to be balanced to only work with a particular subset of classes. So long as fights exist where all kinds of classes excel, that's more than fine with me. Or maybe even areas of fights.

it's totally possible to perform perfectly as a redmage, I'm sorry but it's a question of skill really

you mean a job isn't balanced around a fight!! gonna fix that and remove it! obviously we cannot have a fight balanced around a job nah nah nah can't have that

As someone who progged most of M7S as RDM in the R2/D4 spot and changed to PCT as soon as I could, I feel the problem is not RDM or fight design, the problem is the job balancing team hard on on melees. If RDM was competitive with a melee for damage then this wouldnt be an issue because you could easily join parties as the flex dps and take the melee spot. This is not only theorical but something you see often in ultis. I progged most of UCoB as fake melee RDM and have seen it as well in DSR and FRU when it was current. But with how much better melees are than any job not called BLM makes it so that there's no flex dps spot, it's locked to a melee.