Melee's help me out

Would machinist and black mage having comparable dps to selfish melees (sam, vpr) ruin the game? Would melees no longer be viable? Would parties ban you? Would the sheer volume of melee options always keep the role alive? As a stormblood player I don't understand why a selfish dps of any role would have low numbers. Back when dragoon gave piercing resistance down machinist could pump really high damage and it didn't seem to bother anyone then. Why now has the dev team decided that ranged dps need such a high damage tax when fights aren't usually designed for them to be at a huge advantage?

Nobody cared about BRD/MCH pre-ShB because 1) the role had an actual party function of being emergency resource regeneration when MP mattered and TP existed, and 2) rDPS did not exist as a metric on FFlogs, and therefore there was no visible display for your regular XIV gamer to see "wow this job is kinda OP."

But really, the answer to your question is that this game has existed for too long and people have optimized it to death, the fate of every video game. We have so many tools now and people know so much about how this game works that your average player is aware of these things and will apply optimizations into their gameplay experience. If Machinist was top of the DPS ladder, you would have people locking it into party slots now, just like they locked Picto into FRU PFs.

I've thought about this, since it's an obvious concern with people playing ranged more due to their ease and lack of positionals (in most cases ie. MCH, SMN, RDM).

However, here's why it wouldn't affect anything:

• Duty Roulettes automatically match 1 melee and 1 ranged in a light party (unless someone queued as a pre-made, that's the only reason you'd have ie. 2 DRG in a dungeon).
• High-End duties have mechanics clearly designed for 2 melees and 2 ranged, so many competent PF leaders set the slots to 2 melee and 2 ranged.
• The 5 percent makes you look for at least 1 melee, 1 magic ranged and 1 physical ranged. And whatever effect they have on LB generation now.
• Of course, you will also want a melee LB3 if it's not needed for a different purpose.

So for all these reasons, I don't believe people would stop inviting melees to their raid parties.

And where was similar concern over people taking only 1 tank, or sometimes 1 healer as well, to certain Extreme trials such as EW EX2? There are even people doing that with Unreal. That seems a bigger likelihood than for DPS jobs.

All they really have to do to solve a problem like this is make an 8% instead and you lose a % if one of them is not of the right role (ie. not taking 2 melee means you lose 2%). Or add key utility to each role that is unique and needed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Duty Roulettes automatically match 1 melee and 1 ranged in a light party (unless someone queued as a pre-made, that's the only reason you'd have ie. 2 DRG in a dungeon).

---

Only High-End Duty finder (Raid Finder) preserves role boundaries. I'm still reviewing patch notes to verify but I'm certain this is true. It's absolutely possible to end up with two of the same job in a light party roulette even when people queue separately. I've been in 2xPCT parties plenty of times in both DR:Expert and DR:Leveling.

I think some of the questions can be answered by looking at how things currently are.

Melees are generally stronger, and Viper is especially strong in M6S, but people in Party Finder are not locking out the other dps roles and playing with three melees. They’re still playing with one caster and one phys ranged in their parties.

In FRU when Picto was really strong, some people in Party Finder would lock a spot to be Picto-only and potentially play with two casters on the team, but still have a melee and phys ranged.

If MCH/BLM are balanced appropriately then we’ll probably not have problems with roles becoming completely irrelevant. If they end up overpowered we’d probably see double caster teams or double phys range teams more like with FRU and Picto.

Generally we only see a dps role missing entirely (eg. no caster) in the regular playerbase if the dps check doesn’t matter. I’ve done Extreme trials in party finder where there has been no caster or no phys range on the team, since it didn’t matter that our party wasn’t “normal.”

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reginald_Cain

Would machinist and black mage having comparable dps to selfish melees (sam, vpr) ruin the game?

---

BLM should compete with melee damage-wise. As a non-buffer, it should be balanced around this fact.

MCH dealing competitive damage to melee/BLM/PCT would not be an issue for melee specifically but for the viability of DNC and BRD. This discussion already happened in Abyssos and the conclusion is that either SE gives a raid buff to MCH or they rework the way the combat system and damage profiles work.

Here's to sum up why ranged is picked

"The 1% passive buff, for bringing 1 phys ranged"

This is why 2 phys ranged is a pretty bad idea because of how little damage phys ranged do/contribute, while double melee and double caster are usually more good, because even a red mage is better over a second physical ranged and that job brings a rez...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rongway

I've been in 2xPCT parties plenty of times in both DR:Expert and DR:Leveling.

---

Same, but it's very rare so I tend to assume it was due to being matched with premades.

I feel like they think magic dps and melees both have inherent things that make them harder (melee uptime and positionals, casters having harder movement - according to devs that would be ofc) and rphys technicly dont have those (despite how hard bard is or how strict optimal mch is).
So what if they added some mechanic that would enforce something on the rphys role making it more 'skillful' and give justification for more damage?
I was thinking something like close/far positionals. I would enjoy figuring out when is good time to use a 'sniper shot' type skills so to be back in healer's range when you need it and being able to use point blank skills when its not messing up melees.

Currently i enjoy a sort of similar mental gimnastics on reaper, basicly figuring out where i can cut down on harpe usage by using my communio and perfectio as uptime tools.

More demanding toolkits and rng/proc triage.
But obviously the only metric for SE is DDR design, so I'm just living in the past.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valence

More demanding toolkits and rng/proc triage.
But obviously the only metric for SE is DDR design, so I'm just living in the past.

---

I hate how much both the devs and the community tend to downplay rotational difficulties when they're not mobility restrictions.

Not to say that MCH couldn't use something more to be able to reach higher. It's just that people tend to jump to stuff like cast times, range, positionals and the like before anything else since those are the most obvious.

There's also having a wider array of skills and the depth of their interactions, high apm, rng/procs, gauge management, buff/debuff tracking, and probably others I'm forgetting. Depending on who you ask some may see some of those as bloat or fake difficulty, but I think that's really just a matter of taste.

MCH currently only really has high apm and even that's not too busy compared to some others. Meanwhile its gauge management's been further trivialized by its 7.0 changes so it's even easier than it was in EW imo.

I mean you'd slap a few cast times behind Drill/Anchor and Chainsaw, and suddenly in the eyes of many you'd have the job qualify to be competitive on damage because the job would suddenly qualify for "uptime considerations".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aco505

MCH dealing competitive damage to melee/BLM/PCT would not be an issue for melee specifically but for the viability of DNC and BRD. This discussion already happened in Abyssos and the conclusion is that either SE gives a raid buff to MCH or they rework the way the combat system and damage profiles work.

---

Could you explain why machinist would bully out the other phys ranged? I thought buffing machinist would make them a viable pick for the 4th dps slot and make double phys ranged viable again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valence

I mean you'd slap a few cast times behind Drill/Anchor and Chainsaw, and suddenly in the eyes of many you'd have the job qualify to be competitive on damage because the job would suddenly qualify for "uptime considerations".

---

imo that'd be pretty diabolical given Anchor and Chainsaw's lack of flexibility. Maybe even impossible to keep from drifting without any way to turn them into an instant cast

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reginald_Cain

Could you explain why machinist would bully out the other phys ranged? I thought buffing machinist would make them a viable pick for the 4th dps slot and make double phys ranged viable again.

---

Because this is what happened in abyssos with the casters, if you make one job within a role much stronger than the other 2 it doesn’t encourage you to run the strong one as a fake melee and the 2 weak ones in the true spot it just encourages you to run the strong one in the true role spot and still run two melee

So in this case if you buffed MCH to BLM levels it wouldn’t encourage you to run 1 melee/1 caster/1 DNC or BRD/1 other strong job (melee/BLM/PCT/MCH) it would just encourage you to run 2 melee or damage caster/1 caster/MCH and not run DNC and BRD as MCH can still give you the physical ranged role 1% with higher damage; just as BLM did in abyssos against RDM and SMN

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reginald_Cain

Could you explain why machinist would bully out the other phys ranged? I thought buffing machinist would make them a viable pick for the 4th dps slot and make double phys ranged viable again.

---

Think of the PCT situation before 7.2 due to (poor) caster balance. PCT was mostly locked into the caster slot so the flex slot would either go to a melee or a (rezz) caster. Even more so in FRU.

But it's all explained in the post I link in my message, as well as the Twitter thread referenced there.

I appreciate all the insights. I guess the best machinist can hope for is minor buffs due to constraints on how the game and players handle filling party slots. Let's hope it just doesn't get worse.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aco505

BLM should compete with melee damage-wise. As a non-buffer, it should be balanced around this fact.

MCH dealing competitive damage to melee/BLM/PCT would not be an issue for melee specifically but for the viability of DNC and BRD. This discussion already happened in Abyssos and the conclusion is that either SE gives a raid buff to MCH or they rework the way the combat system and damage profiles work.

---

Just going to point out, buffing and not buffing are just 2 different types of damage profiles, a job like ninja has it's damage out put into it's raid buff as opposed to something like samurai that doesn't. This is all to say that damage utility really doesn't matter, they're 2 different ways of doing the same thing ultimately and people will always apply the best one to a given fight. BLM is screwed not because it doesn't have a raid buff but because it doesn't offer any ACTUAL utility, stuff like Star Prism, Tempura Coat, Magicked Barrier, Raise etc... These are Real raid utility. If SE wanted to, they could cut back BLM's potency and give them a raid buff to compensate and the job would be in the same exact position because that utility isn't really utility. Se bard and dancer for an example or Red Mage and summoner who's damage profiles are so close that they're functionally interchangable at all levels but offer different types of actual utility that may actually influence their contribution. DNC burst heavy contribution, Verraise vs. Swfitcast raise, Bards Team wide contribution, SMNs... Ease of use? idk, smn really doesn't have anything too special.

Raid buffs being “utility” is an old HW holdover when FFlogs didn’t exist so we didn’t really know how much a raid buff contributed so it was kinda considered “free hidden damage” so it was utility

Now that square just balances like “selfish DPS=buffer personal DPS+buffer raid buff” there is no reason to consider it utility

There is no functional difference between NIN/DRG and BLM/SAM/VPR

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

Just going to point out, buffing and not buffing are just 2 different types of damage profiles, a job like ninja has it's damage out put into it's raid buff as opposed to something like samurai that doesn't. This is all to say that damage utility really doesn't matter, they're 2 different ways of doing the same thing ultimately and people will always apply the best one to a given fight.

---

This is correct. The reason why I say that BLM should be balanced as "selfish" is because non-buffers should not have higher rDPS values than buffers, as otherwise they'd be overpowered (e.g. ShB SAM or BLM in the second half of EW). They can still have similar or higher aDPS/cDPS values, if they happen to be there at a specific balance point.

"Selfish" jobs are already superior to buffers in most content, from dungeons to hard 8-ppl duties because their personal performance is irrelevant from the group's or its size. They should still play into buffs but they won't be affected by others dying or playing poorly compared to buffers with the sole exception of kill time (which they can still benefit from even if the group is not good).

You can also see this in CODCAR due to the size of the arena making buffing complicated or even in normal Alliance raids where the "selfish" jobs are the ones making the most out of the buffs given to them, particularly since you can buff stack there due to the funny website not organizing the Alliance raid data into their usual metrics but just raw DPS.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

BLM is screwed not because it doesn't have a raid buff but because it doesn't offer any ACTUAL utility, stuff like Star Prism, Tempura Coat, Magicked Barrier, Raise etc...

---

With the exception of resurrection, jobs are not balanced around their utility. VPR has none (unless we consider Uncoiled Fury to be "utility") whereas MNK has a defensive with an AoE heal attached and a unique ability in Mantra yet both are balanced around the melee/non-rezz caster group. It is also not surprising that the infamous non-healer Ultimate clears tend to bring those DPS jobs with additional healing tools like DNC or RPR.

BLM has a defensive, and they could give it another utility tool if they wanted to without it requiring to reduce its damage.

The "issue" of BLM is that it is (was?) a job that does not fit into the standardized 2-minute bursts as well as others do. Its damage profile is continuous instead of bursty. This would be fine if the amount of buffs or their power was lower, but their strong synergy combined with their multiplicative nature makes most other jobs more suitable at exploiting them. This damage profile also hurts them in encounters with a lot of downtime but can make them good at particular moments where other jobs don't have a lot of burst but still require damage, as is the case in one phase in TOP. It is no surprise then that the developers have kept changing the job, to the dismay of plenty of BLM lovers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Azurarok

imo that'd be pretty diabolical given Anchor and Chainsaw's lack of flexibility. Maybe even impossible to keep from drifting without any way to turn them into an instant cast

---

Yes, but that's what you sometimes read that kind of proposal on these very forums as if it would suddenly fix the job.
But my post was specifically aimed at SE's and the community insistence that uptime defines job mathematical potency/output and close to nothing else does.

for the comment about it preventing double of the same dps jobs

that only functions for duty finder for current tier SAVAGE to stop duplicate roles.

You'd think it's there for high end duties such as EX, but no, it does not.



I've got another rant for how overly neglected the high-end tab for current patch is as you can have no EXs in high end tab when they're still relevant as the current savage tier is for it.


Something I've found about MCH in which I'd just ffa it in an un optimized way would be not thinking about the gauge properly and sending it without a thought besides 2m.

Anyone remember stormblood where bard machist dragoon + 1 buffing caster was a good comp? good times. Double phys ranged is dead and it's everybody's fault i guess

Melee game, you cant get even a whiff of the tier melee are in.