m6s adds phase overtuned?

Surprised to not see a post like this in the forums yet. Anyone else think the adds in m6s have a little too much HP? Honestly, the fight as a whole isn't too bad up until that point. Then during adds, every party I've been in falls apart. Some jobs are clearly way better than others as far as AoE goes.

I dunno, you can say "git gud" or whatever, but I feel like adds phase is an unnatural difficulty spike for where it is in the tier. And from what I've been hearing m7s isn't even that bad in comparison.

EDIT: I just cleared :) But I still think the adds are overtuned.
EDIT2: m7s is that bad.

From what it’s looking like it’s not necessarily overtuned it’s the fact that cleave in this game just isn’t terribly well balanced for the purpose of what M6 asks from the player

Cleave is decently balanced in a dungeon where you all just stand in a pack and wail on trash that doesn’t do any mechanic but when you introduce limitations in movement and control to cleave then it kinda falls apart

For example SCH is terrible in adds phase because it gets rooted to the spot in the corner and its AOE is self targeted. WHM can smuggle damage in via misery but it can really mess things up by using holy as most mobs have a stun priority. Meanwhile something like VPR simply cleaves by nature of doing its burst so functions very well

So cleave is decently balanced in a vacuum, but in practice it’s an unbalanced mess. Which is why VPR has 7.1 PCT in FRU carry potential in adds phase

I think that the fight itself is tuned correctly for a week 1 experience - it will be nerfed by tomestone gear creep in the following weeks. However I do not think that the jobs are at all balanced. If you look at vpr/nin in particular in this fight it's a huge meme. I don't know what they were thinking with the 7.2 patch notes but whoever balances the jobs should purchase a calculator. Buffing PK does not compensate. NIN/VPR are closer in a sustained target dummy 5 target fight but ninja is heavily dependent on its burst for that - m6s is not sustained enough for that to pan out.

It seems ok to me because when people are trying to clear they use their potions pretty late into the add phase instead of using them early to burst down the squirrels, mantas, or jabberwock. Those feel manageable if people are playing well. So I think the issue isn’t necessarily that the adds are too strong, but that it can be really hard to figure out where the problems are when they arise, and then we can get stuck in a party that’s not sure what’s wrong.

If I die to autos as tank, then did I not mitigate enough? Or did the healer not heal enough? It’s hard to tell when we’re all learning the fight but we need to figure it out so I stop dying.

If the adds just not dying fast enough and then hitting me with a lot more autos than they should (or are enraging, or the jabberwock is killing the healer, or the mantas are dropping so many puddles), what went wrong? Is anyone in particular doing low damage? It’s again hard to tell, but is necessary to figure out.

I can’t trust people in Party Finder to admit they made mistakes with the above things, because as I’ve raided with many different people I’ve run into many who don’t know how to play their jobs properly in the first place but still made it to the second floor of Savage. If I’m in a party and I don’t know what’s going wrong then I might just have to leave.

I am starting to hate this fight man, i am stuck on the add phase for days now because no one does enough damage to clear this crap.

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Originally Posted by Arohk

I am starting to hate this fight man, i am stuck on the add phase for days now because no one does enough damage to clear this crap.

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The problem that isn't properly understood by pf (since it's also not explained in any guide), is that the add phase is not a damage check, it's 3 consecutive ones. It's pointless if a group burns all their CDs on the very first manta and clearing the first dps check with 250% (water every 10 seconds, you can afford 1 puddle, meaning 15 seconds to kill the manta), but be completely out of juice for everything else. Tell your dps in the group to divide themselves. One melee should use their big burst on the manta, while the other uses only small stuff, like one minutes. Classes that have resource based burst like VPR, RPR and MNK are good choices for the first burst. The 2nd melee will burn their big bursts on the first Jabber. Also, if you get dps like SAM or NIN, they should use their ranged burst on the cat whenever they can. Because if the cat is dead, the ranged can focus on whatever is to be downed atm as well. Further, it's also very important that the adds are brought to the manta asap and properly stacked there. Tanks have a tendency to just move so that they are in range for the manta, while the adds are behind them, thus not getting cleaved. Same is true during Jabberphase. Lastly, some of the adds live quite long from the time they spawned (30 - 45 seconds, the whole phase is over 2 minutes), meaning that dots can do their full damage on adds like the west mantas, the yans, even the cats when focussed live for most of the dot duration.

Adds seem fine, but job balance seem really bad. It feels like there are too many jobs that are just straight up missing cleave, and burst damage that can used outside of raid buffs.

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Originally Posted by AllenThyl

The problem that isn't properly understood by pf (since it's also not explained in any guide), is that the add phase is not a damage check, it's 3 consecutive ones.

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if only that was the only problem , i am usually tanking so the damage is not under my control, the one time i got there as Viper i saved up all my cd's and full gauge and that was the only time the adds died really quickly.
there is also a lot of other things that can go wrong and one mistake is an instant wipe.

Yan spawns > one Mu is too close = wipe
someone accidantaly hit a manta with an AOE when it spawns = wipe
someone gets hit by the cat = wipe
DPS misses their LB = usually wipe

i also encountered a new problem yesterday, when the MT was a warrior, he created so much healing aggro with nascent flash that he pulled aggro of my Yan which caused it to enrage...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKKSgdCSglE

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Originally Posted by Arohk

i also encountered a new problem yesterday, when the MT was a warrior, he created so much healing aggro with nascent flash that he pulled aggro of my Yan which caused it to enrage...

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Lol that happened to me in M7, pulled add from DRK and took away LoS protection from teammates over the other side of the arena.

On M6. I know the adds are tuned REALLY tightly but it's not overtuned I think. As mentioned, gear will (and HAS) make it exponentially easier as weeks go on. After that it's just a dps priority check and checking your capacity to stay cool in the chaos and go down the list of targets in order.

My main issue is that healers seem to have forgotten how to properly manage tanks. The refusal to deign a GCD heal has thrown a few runs into the trash.

Overtuned, along with other flawed designs

I cleared and there is no reason adds should be so difficult to not only kill for standard player, but the damage tanks take

Targeting isn't the best in this game, and SE needs to stop discrimination against controller users. Using the D pad to target adds is bulky and slow, and having to constantly go down the DPad to heal tanks? No ultimate nor crit dungeon in the game requires such healing/dps check. Not even TEA or UWU on launch.

UWU was an issue with spiny with controller users. TEA with dolls, too. I shouldn't need TO GOOGLE A MACRO and try for hours to days just to be able to heal HAUCHERFAUNT on controller at that point add him to the enmity list too. I still need people away from me to even try to click on him

This game is over 10 years old, theres no excuse to keep making these mistakes designing content. Ive been here since heavensward

Then tanks can lose adds just from nascent aggro??? That's still somewhat tanks fault, but this has happened to me on white mage, too

Then they make way too much movement for casters STILL. I can't heal well while moving and most shield healers aren't watching tanks during adds either. If I'm picker that tank might die bc a regen aint gonna cut it and a dead lily heal while moving is still annoying. People have looked. Shield healers often arent healing tanks nearly as much as regen healers. I'm talking like orange regen/blue shield. I shouldnt need to say kardia the Yan tank? For something of this design, why is kardia 1 target yet both tanks are taking serious damage? Then scholars dont want to use their stuff bc thats their dps or loss of soil (which I often havent seen during adds)

Lily bell would be nice if it wasnt based on whm damage taken, but its nice for puddling party anyway after storm phase and asylum isn't big enough for the arena. Yes it can still get both tanks, but why not just make it the same size as star???? Medica 3 is too much mp cost as well and rapture isnt strong enough to heal both tanks with the damage taken. A tank shouldnt die just because I did a misery.

It also makes no sense to "buff warrior single target" for FRU and them nerf them for M6S. That makes absolutely NO SENSE. Tank aoe should be 2+ targets because they need to grab and hold aggro. Why is war aoe all over the place??? 3+ for overpower but need 4+ for cyclone? WHY? Just keep it all 3, if not 2. The squishiest tank and nerfs the aoe that heals it the most, bc that makes so much sense.

If they want to make movement heavy fights, then get rid of casting, because me moving for 2-3s shouldn't kill a tank. Don't get me started on storm phase and because of wings mechanic, I cant fully hit the boss on healer during lava phase either

What good is Dia buff going to do?

Know the player base, SE, and stop overlooking controller users/console players

Heals need to gcd dps, too, bc that dps check is way too tight. I've done gcd heals, but spamming cure 2 is expensive and doing 1 misery, the tank just dies?

It's not just a healing thing. I had a static I'm no longer with because the melee leader basically said "dark missionary is useless, just tetra the tanks".

Other times the Yan tank dies is if I get selected for the bind from the jabberwock. There shouldn't be so much damage from that. And sometimes tanks are too far away to heal

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Originally Posted by mallleable

Adds seem fine, but job balance seem really bad. It feels like there are too many jobs that are just straight up missing cleave, and burst damage that can used outside of raid buffs.

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If jobs aren't balanced, then adds isn't fine......

Another two days of no progress in this fight, it never felt so hopeless in savage before. Poeple are just anable to kill the adds fast enough.

I have to agree with OP. They feel a bit over-tuned for average PF parties to clear within the first month or two. As a healer I also find this phase just hectic. It's very hard to contribute meaningful damage to the adds when you're forced to gcd spam tanks just getting trucked by Yans and Mus. Almost feels like this wall was on purpose so statics could get ahead of the PF scene faster. This really requires DPS coordination that you rarely see in most PF groups. Keeping in mind a lot of people who PF are on controller/console and don't talk.... like ever. So coordination outside of a pre-agreed guide like Hector is pretty limited. Maybe it will get better, but its been three weeks and add wall seems to stop almost all PF groups. Very rare to get a group that can get past them.

Lucky this is optional content. Misery therefore optional.

From someone that has retired this tier, are people actually following guides? They tell explicitly to hold bursts for specific parts (yukizuri does at least).

yeeep. and it doesnt matter. they either let the cat explode, or on the rare chance they dont, the mus explode. i havent touched it in a week or more because Im fed up. They've ruined savage for me with this. i understand having to work hard on a hard fight, but this isnt hard. people just cant wrap their brains around it for some reason, or suck and M5S is so easy that they managed to do it anyways.

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Originally Posted by millktea

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There is a reason called SKILL CHECK or Savage, the Difficulity can go even further i hope atleast with the next tier

and sorry to tell you but if you really using the dpad to target a specific add then YOU do clearly something wrong it, im a controllerplayer myself and there is literally 0 discrimination against controllerplayer only because you cant target a specific add, i give you a advice

settings - target prio line of sight, then O X, boohm you got your add in a matter of not even half a second

Actually cleared it this week, with two black mages in the party, the adds really melted this time around, the bridge phase took like another 4 or 5 attempts to clear because most of the party never made it that far, but compared to anything before the last phase feels like a total joke.

I think by now most people have enough gear to do enough damage regardless of playing this phase perfectly, there is still a lot that go wrong though.

Also, some jobs seem to be a in a big disadvantage , i recommend to dont play MCH, NIN or DRK, having two black mages made such a big difference it is unbelievable.