So the only way to progress our DoH/DoL tools will be Cosmic Exploration?

Will those tools be exclusive to Cosmic Exploration content? No more expert recipes? Can someone confirm (or deny)?
I feel a little sad if this is the only way to progress them...

I haven't seen it yet myself so I can't say, but Ishgardian Restoration had its own relics associated with it so it wouldn't surprise me if these would be the equivalent and we'd get something akin to the resplendent tools later down the line

Expert recipes I would imagine will come later for the progression of tools, like they always do.

I am not a fan of expert recipes, and I have done my fair share of them, I personally think the crafting system is far too simplified, and you end up with something that is more of a gear check and an RNG check, rather than a skill or understanding check, with the skill and understanding playing a small smaller part.

IMO, crafting needs more depth to have expert recipes... Some may disagree, and some may agree with this, but each to their own.

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Originally Posted by CVXIV

I haven't seen it yet myself so I can't say, but Ishgardian Restoration had its own relics associated with it so it wouldn't surprise me if these would be the equivalent and we'd get something akin to the resplendent tools later down the line

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They were only associated in that you went to the Skysteel to get the sidequests, and some quests happened in the Firmament. But nothing required you to progress or play through Firmament content and all materials were obtained outside of it.
Perhaps that's what they meant?

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Expert recipes I would imagine will come later for the progression of tools, like they always do.

I am not a fan of expert recipes, and I have done my fair share of them, I personally think the crafting system is far too simplified, and you end up with something that is more of a gear check and an RNG check, rather than a skill or understanding check, with the skill and understanding playing a small smaller part.

IMO, crafting needs more depth to have expert recipes... Some may disagree, and some may agree with this, but each to their own.

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Don't get me wrong, grinding crafting tools isn't exactly my cup of tea, and I'm pretty neutral when it comes to expert recipes, but I do enjoy doing them for one relic. There is actual skill in knowing what to do and finding one's own little tricks out of them. But past a single relic yeah, I can safely say that I'm satiated and it becomes a tedious grind all the same.
Either way the OP may have come from me misunderstanding whatever has been translated or was said in the PLL. I just dread having to grind things in the new Cosmic Exploration so if I can avoid it, I'd be actually happy.

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Originally Posted by CVXIV

I haven't seen it yet myself so I can't say, but Ishgardian Restoration had its own relics associated with it so it wouldn't surprise me if these would be the equivalent and we'd get something akin to the resplendent tools later down the line

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We didn't have any DoH and DoL relics for Ishgard Restoration. The Skysteel tools used the Firmament but weren't connected to that questline.

It does seem that Cosmic Tools will be tied, though, since missions are a way to upgrade them. I think that's not the right move. Relic questlines should be independent questlines to help them stay evergreen in the future. I think there will be less of an issue since DoH and DoL rely less on others than with relics tied to field content, but I'm opposed to the entire idea in general.

I don't mind if they allow people to grind them with Cosmic Exploration, as long as we have multiple (and viable/equal!) options outside, which SE consistently fails to do with exploratory areas (if they even try).
Else they can just tell us that from now on, doh/dol relics are now an exclusive part of the crafting/gathering mass content each expansion, but that would be such a wild restriction and decision to make... Not that they haven't done it previously with pve relics, notably in Eureka, which, I think, was a very bad idea and just restricts the audience for those relics for no reason.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I don't mind if they allow people to grind them with Cosmic Exploration, as long as we have multiple (and viable/equal!) options outside, which SE consistently fails to do with exploratory areas (if they even try).
Else they can just tell us that from now on, doh/dol relics are now an exclusive part of the crafting/gathering mass content each expansion, but that would be such a wild restriction and decision to make... Not that they haven't done it previously with pve relics, notably in Eureka, which, I think, was a very bad idea and just restricts the audience with little reasoning.

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Yeah, exactly. Completely with you there. CE looks right up my alley but I hate the idea that if it doesn't land for someone, they get locked out of their DoH or DoL relic. Same reason I hate DoW and DoM relics requiring going through the story in the field content zones instead of being independent questlines with steps that can be completed both through activity in the zones or activity outside the zones.

see people? this is why we don't get content
people don't want to do content to get the stuff they want
they just want to craft\ buy mats with tomes \ scrips, hand over and be done

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Originally Posted by YISUG

see people? this is why we don't get content
people don't want to do content to get the stuff they want
they just want to craft\ buy mats with tomes \ scrips, hand over and be done

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Or if you think a little harder -- Just a little now...

Then you might also realize the issue is much largely in part because that content is not actually fun, rather than them wanting something you get with tomes/mats/scrips (Which is still 90% of how they functioned for both Skysteel and Crystalline Tools).

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Or if you think a little harder -- Just a little now...

Then you might also realize the issue is much largely in part because that content is not actually fun, rather than them wanting something you get with tomes/mats/scrips (Which is still 90% of how they functioned for both Skysteel and Crystalline Tools).

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this is the first time i think they tied the DoH\L relic to a large scale content
you don't know if it's not fun yet, but i can see why you think it is already

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Originally Posted by YISUG

see people? this is why we don't get content
people don't want to do content to get the stuff they want
they just want to craft\ buy mats with tomes \ scrips, hand over and be done

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And crafting those (especially with expert recipes), is not doing content? Crafting in general is not doing content? You'll have to explain the logic here?
I mean if you could literally buy the relic step and be done with it by throwing gil or skips at it, I could see you point though?
And, finally, who knows, maybe I'll love Cosmic Exploration! I'm not exactly hopeful in that regard with what I have seen from the live letter (personally running between nodes and spamming a button without even a thought or gameplay system behind isn't exactly what i'd call appealing to me specifically), but maybe I will! Either way, I hope the people that this is targeted toward will actually enjoy it, and I say this genuinely.

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Originally Posted by YISUG

this is the first time i think they tied the DoH\L relic to a large scale content
you don't know if it's fun yet, but i can see why you think it is already

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Exclusively with large scale content, yes. But Skysteel Tools still had steps which were tied specifically to the large scale zone of Diadem.

I just generally see it as an issue regardless of whether it's large scale or not.. Go to node, whack node, go to next node, whack node. Get material (which will probably be a Cosmic currency, substantively and functionally no different from having it under scrip anyway), go to wherever your fun little spot is, get macro from whichever resource (or who knows, maybe you do it yourself, because they are recipes probably scaled to approx., 1* difficulty for the first several steps)

Press macro button 1 > Wait 40-51 seconds > Press button 2... - Or who knows maybe you do it in 1 button.

Let's be real and practical about this.. Anything they do is probably not going to be any different functionally from the same thing they've been feeding us all along. <--- And this is part of the problem, we're less concerned with the functionality of those systems, and more concerned whether they call a scrip something new

Not like they are actually giving something engaging like WWYW or a subsystem in WWYW like HoC to have a level of influence, or something that required a modicum of optimization like with the OG HW concealed nodes.

we dont know anything how it works in detail...

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Expert recipes I would imagine will come later for the progression of tools, like they always do.

I am not a fan of expert recipes, and I have done my fair share of them, I personally think the crafting system is far too simplified, and you end up with something that is more of a gear check and an RNG check, rather than a skill or understanding check, with the skill and understanding playing a small smaller part.

IMO, crafting needs more depth to have expert recipes... Some may disagree, and some may agree with this, but each to their own.

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Problem is I've never seen a game that has a more complex crafting system than FFXIV so I have no suggestions to make to improve the situation. 99% of games, the crafting is "Have items, push button."

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Originally Posted by hydralus

Problem is I've never seen a game that has a more complex crafting system than FFXIV so I have no suggestions to make to improve the situation. 99% of games, the crafting is "Have items, push button."

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Sure, it still has depth relative to other MMOs, that much I'll agree with, but ultimately it doesn't really amount to much when there are very few factors for that depth to actually be utilized. Some people make their own macro, so they engage with it perhaps once every 8 months. Then some people just go straight on a resource website, copy and paste a macro string, and then press 1 button, wait 40 or so seconds then press the next button.

Then you also look at it relative to how the system once functioned and you realize that it is a hollow shell of what it once was. Between abilities like WWYW, HoC, CZ, Ingenuity, and even arguably PbP and MM, it gave you a lot of control and skill over the recipes, even when you were doing them under complex situations, e.g., overcoming massive gear disparities between expansions, or just generally end-game crafting on low stats. It had a lot of skill aspect to it, something which just isn't present in modern crafting, even if you deign to manually craft out of choice, at which point generally the only recipes you ever do this for are experts, which generally become more about stats and whether RNG was or wasn't favorable to you.. Again, older crafting between WWYW and HoC still gave this choice, and would have been perfect. For as busted as I found them, they were definitely great systems and would have been perfect for experts versus current situation.

Many may not see it as a great loss, since many didn't engage with crafting to that level of nuance, but it really was.

But we can all really direct this to the simple result, sure we have all these abilities, but so what? For 99.9% of use-cases with crafting, functionally you press 1 button, turn away for 40 seconds, and then press another button and job done, recipe complete. So, really, even if we want to give benefit of the doubt to that complexity, the end result is still the same, and has been since Ala Mhigan recipes in 4.1.

Had I never interacted with crafting in this level of capacity in the past then I probably wouldn't care as I'd not be any wiser to it, but having seen what crafting once was, and what it currently is, there is definitely room for a great level of improvement (futile the suggestion may be)

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Sure, it still has depth relative to other MMOs, that much I'll agree with, but ultimately it doesn't really amount to much when there are very few factors for that depth to actually be utilized. Some people make their own macro, so they engage with it perhaps once every 8 months. Then some people just go straight on a resource website, copy and paste a macro string, and then press 1 button, wait 40 or so seconds then press the next button.

Then you also look at it relative to how the system once functioned and you realize that it is a hollow shell of what it once was. Between abilities like WWYW, HoC, CZ, Ingenuity, and even arguably PbP and MM, it gave you a lot of control and skill over the recipes, even when you were doing them under complex situations, e.g., overcoming massive gear disparities between expansions, or just generally end-game crafting on low stats. It had a lot of skill aspect to it, something which just isn't present in modern crafting, even if you deign to manually craft out of choice, at which point generally the only recipes you ever do this for are experts, which generally become more about stats and whether RNG was or wasn't favorable to you.. Again, older crafting between WWYW and HoC still gave this choice, and would have been perfect. For as busted as I found them, they were definitely great systems and would have been perfect for experts versus current situation.

Many may not see it as a great loss, since many didn't engage with crafting to that level of nuance, but it really was.

But we can all really direct this to the simple result, sure we have all these abilities, but so what? For 99.9% of use-cases with crafting, functionally you press 1 button, turn away for 40 seconds, and then press another button and job done, recipe complete. So, really, even if we want to give benefit of the doubt to that complexity, the end result is still the same, and has been since Ala Mhigan recipes in 4.1.

Had I never interacted with crafting in this level of capacity in the past then I probably wouldn't care as I'd not be any wiser to it, but having seen what crafting once was, and what it currently is, there is definitely room for a great level of improvement (futile the suggestion may be)

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I suppose I could get on board for adding more strategic abilities like WWYW back to the game. Back in the day I never used them since I was always able to hit 100% quality regardless, but pairing it with the expert system could be an interestin' way to go about things.

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Originally Posted by YISUG

see people? this is why we don't get content
people don't want to do content to get the stuff they want
they just want to craft\ buy mats with tomes \ scrips, hand over and be done

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You obviously did neither Skysteel nor Splendorous because that's pretty much how both of them were done. There were materials you had to buy with scrips for crafting and things to gather in expansion zones for gathering. This has absolutely nothing to do with not wanting to do content to get what people want. It has to do with SE tying things to certain content that don't need to be tied to them.

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Originally Posted by Asari5

we dont know anything how it works in detail...

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We did get a couple of slides, though. They're called Cosmic Tools and are unlocking at the same time as Cosmic Exploration. And the other slide said that players can increase their item level by progressing through missions. Missions were something featured with Cosmic Exploration, so those two pieces of information seem to strongly imply we'll progress them through this content.

Ssince the Cosmic Exploration items will go into a separate inventory (seems maybe it will be like Isleventory) this also seems to imply that unlike Diadem we won't be able to purchase necessary items. So it really does seem we won't be able to progress this except through Cosmic Exploration. I know I'm going to love CE. I empathize for anyone else it doesn't hit with who will be denied their relic unless they force themselves to go through it. That's design I will always oppose. These zones need to stand on their own feet and be engaging for what they are, not propped up by an unrelated highly desired item.

Thanks to everyone that responded to me for clarification
I hadn't watched the full live letter at that post and I only shared what I could remember with the skysteel tools
When I mentioned it being linked to ishgardian restoration, it was because I remembered some of the later steps where I think you had to go into the diadem for?

However reading through the responses it definitely seems that these are a lot different than I imagined

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Originally Posted by CVXIV

Thanks to everyone that responded to me for clarification
I hadn't watched the full live letter at that post and I only shared what I could remember with the skysteel tools
When I mentioned it being linked to ishgardian restoration, it was because I remembered some of the later steps where I think you had to go into the diadem for?

However reading through the responses it definitely seems that these are a lot different than I imagined

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The last step for DoH for Skysteel needed Expert recipes and those did use Diadem materials. But you could buy them if you didn't want to gather them. I haven't done those since they came out, but DoL was gathered in Azys Lla for that step IIRC. You did get the quest and do turn-ins in the Firmament, so that's probably what you're remembering.