So the only way to progress our DoH/DoL tools will be Cosmic Exploration?

[Valence]

Will those tools be exclusive to Cosmic Exploration content? No more expert recipes? Can someone confirm (or deny)?
I feel a little sad if this is the only way to progress them...

[CVXIV]

I haven't seen it yet myself so I can't say, but Ishgardian Restoration had its own relics associated with it so it wouldn't surprise me if these would be the equivalent and we'd get something akin to the resplendent tools later down the line

[TaleraRistain]

I haven't seen it yet myself so I can't say, but Ishgardian Restoration had its own relics associated with it so it wouldn't surprise me if these would be the equivalent and we'd get something akin to the resplendent tools later down the line

We didn't have any DoH and DoL relics for Ishgard Restoration. The Skysteel tools used the Firmament but weren't connected to that questline.

It does seem that Cosmic Tools will be tied, though, since missions are a way to upgrade them. I think that's not the right move. Relic questlines should be independent questlines to help them stay evergreen in the future. I think there will be less of an issue since DoH and DoL rely less on others than with relics tied to field content, but I'm opposed to the entire idea in general.

[Kaurhz]

Expert recipes I would imagine will come later for the progression of tools, like they always do.

I am not a fan of expert recipes, and I have done my fair share of them, I personally think the crafting system is far too simplified, and you end up with something that is more of a gear check and an RNG check, rather than a skill or understanding check, with the skill and understanding playing a small smaller part.

IMO, crafting needs more depth to have expert recipes... Some may disagree, and some may agree with this, but each to their own.

[Valence]

I haven't seen it yet myself so I can't say, but Ishgardian Restoration had its own relics associated with it so it wouldn't surprise me if these would be the equivalent and we'd get something akin to the resplendent tools later down the line

They were only associated in that you went to the Skysteel to get the sidequests, and some quests happened in the Firmament. But nothing required you to progress or play through Firmament content and all materials were obtained outside of it.
Perhaps that's what they meant?

Expert recipes I would imagine will come later for the progression of tools, like they always do.

I am not a fan of expert recipes, and I have done my fair share of them, I personally think the crafting system is far too simplified, and you end up with something that is more of a gear check and an RNG check, rather than a skill or understanding check, with the skill and understanding playing a small smaller part.

IMO, crafting needs more depth to have expert recipes... Some may disagree, and some may agree with this, but each to their own.

Don't get me wrong, grinding crafting tools isn't exactly my cup of tea, and I'm pretty neutral when it comes to expert recipes, but I do enjoy doing them for one relic. There is actual skill in knowing what to do and finding one's own little tricks out of them. But past a single relic yeah, I can safely say that I'm satiated and it becomes a tedious grind all the same.
Either way the OP may have come from me misunderstanding whatever has been translated or was said in the PLL. I just dread having to grind things in the new Cosmic Exploration so if I can avoid it, I'd be actually happy.

[hydralus]

Expert recipes I would imagine will come later for the progression of tools, like they always do.

I am not a fan of expert recipes, and I have done my fair share of them, I personally think the crafting system is far too simplified, and you end up with something that is more of a gear check and an RNG check, rather than a skill or understanding check, with the skill and understanding playing a small smaller part.

IMO, crafting needs more depth to have expert recipes... Some may disagree, and some may agree with this, but each to their own.

Problem is I've never seen a game that has a more complex crafting system than FFXIV so I have no suggestions to make to improve the situation. 99% of games, the crafting is "Have items, push button."

[Kaurhz]

Problem is I've never seen a game that has a more complex crafting system than FFXIV so I have no suggestions to make to improve the situation. 99% of games, the crafting is "Have items, push button."

Sure, it still has depth relative to other MMOs, that much I'll agree with, but ultimately it doesn't really amount to much when there are very few factors for that depth to actually be utilized. Some people make their own macro, so they engage with it perhaps once every 8 months. Then some people just go straight on a resource website, copy and paste a macro string, and then press 1 button, wait 40 or so seconds then press the next button.

Then you also look at it relative to how the system once functioned and you realize that it is a hollow shell of what it once was. Between abilities like WWYW, HoC, CZ, Ingenuity, and even arguably PbP and MM, it gave you a lot of control and skill over the recipes, even when you were doing them under complex situations, e.g., overcoming massive gear disparities between expansions, or just generally end-game crafting on low stats. It had a lot of skill aspect to it, something which just isn't present in modern crafting, even if you deign to manually craft out of choice, at which point generally the only recipes you ever do this for are experts, which generally become more about stats and whether RNG was or wasn't favorable to you.. Again, older crafting between WWYW and HoC still gave this choice, and would have been perfect. For as busted as I found them, they were definitely great systems and would have been perfect for experts versus current situation.

Many may not see it as a great loss, since many didn't engage with crafting to that level of nuance, but it really was.

But we can all really direct this to the simple result, sure we have all these abilities, but so what? For 99.9% of use-cases with crafting, functionally you press 1 button, turn away for 40 seconds, and then press another button and job done, recipe complete. So, really, even if we want to give benefit of the doubt to that complexity, the end result is still the same, and has been since Ala Mhigan recipes in 4.1.

Had I never interacted with crafting in this level of capacity in the past then I probably wouldn't care as I'd not be any wiser to it, but having seen what crafting once was, and what it currently is, there is definitely room for a great level of improvement (futile the suggestion may be)

[hydralus]

Sure, it still has depth relative to other MMOs, that much I'll agree with, but ultimately it doesn't really amount to much when there are very few factors for that depth to actually be utilized. Some people make their own macro, so they engage with it perhaps once every 8 months. Then some people just go straight on a resource website, copy and paste a macro string, and then press 1 button, wait 40 or so seconds then press the next button.

Then you also look at it relative to how the system once functioned and you realize that it is a hollow shell of what it once was. Between abilities like WWYW, HoC, CZ, Ingenuity, and even arguably PbP and MM, it gave you a lot of control and skill over the recipes, even when you were doing them under complex situations, e.g., overcoming massive gear disparities between expansions, or just generally end-game crafting on low stats. It had a lot of skill aspect to it, something which just isn't present in modern crafting, even if you deign to manually craft out of choice, at which point generally the only recipes you ever do this for are experts, which generally become more about stats and whether RNG was or wasn't favorable to you.. Again, older crafting between WWYW and HoC still gave this choice, and would have been perfect. For as busted as I found them, they were definitely great systems and would have been perfect for experts versus current situation.

Many may not see it as a great loss, since many didn't engage with crafting to that level of nuance, but it really was.

But we can all really direct this to the simple result, sure we have all these abilities, but so what? For 99.9% of use-cases with crafting, functionally you press 1 button, turn away for 40 seconds, and then press another button and job done, recipe complete. So, really, even if we want to give benefit of the doubt to that complexity, the end result is still the same, and has been since Ala Mhigan recipes in 4.1.

Had I never interacted with crafting in this level of capacity in the past then I probably wouldn't care as I'd not be any wiser to it, but having seen what crafting once was, and what it currently is, there is definitely room for a great level of improvement (futile the suggestion may be)

I suppose I could get on board for adding more strategic abilities like WWYW back to the game. Back in the day I never used them since I was always able to hit 100% quality regardless, but pairing it with the expert system could be an interestin' way to go about things.

[Valence]

I don't mind if they allow people to grind them with Cosmic Exploration, as long as we have multiple (and viable/equal!) options outside, which SE consistently fails to do with exploratory areas (if they even try).
Else they can just tell us that from now on, doh/dol relics are now an exclusive part of the crafting/gathering mass content each expansion, but that would be such a wild restriction and decision to make... Not that they haven't done it previously with pve relics, notably in Eureka, which, I think, was a very bad idea and just restricts the audience for those relics for no reason.

[TaleraRistain]

I don't mind if they allow people to grind them with Cosmic Exploration, as long as we have multiple (and viable/equal!) options outside, which SE consistently fails to do with exploratory areas (if they even try).
Else they can just tell us that from now on, doh/dol relics are now an exclusive part of the crafting/gathering mass content each expansion, but that would be such a wild restriction and decision to make... Not that they haven't done it previously with pve relics, notably in Eureka, which, I think, was a very bad idea and just restricts the audience with little reasoning.

Yeah, exactly. Completely with you there. CE looks right up my alley but I hate the idea that if it doesn't land for someone, they get locked out of their DoH or DoL relic. Same reason I hate DoW and DoM relics requiring going through the story in the field content zones instead of being independent questlines with steps that can be completed both through activity in the zones or activity outside the zones.