Ninja is unfun and has too many issues, please address.

I just want to start by saying that I know the devs are working very hard and they aren't totally neglecting us. Keep it up!

I am a big Ninja enjoyer and it's the only job that's keeping me playing this game, but after so many seasons it's getting tedious now.

Nin is the only melee job that doesn't have kill pressure outside of LB. Every other Melee job does this. It's not very assassin, is it?

Skill animations for Nin are too long, having to wait for Hyosho, or Meisui or Naruto gang signs to finish before you do literally anything is not fun. Not very agile, is it?

Stealth doesn't work properly, not only are you not able to move faster, an enemy can just back pedal and they will out maneuverer you but you can also by taken out of stealth by literally anything. So it's a game of chance. Not very in control, is it?

It's the only melee job in the game that has to make a offensive or defensive decision, every other one gets both at the same time. Going defensive isn't worth it because it's too weak. Getting punished for no reason, for what?

In summary, when you play Nin you don't feel in control: skill animations are too long, easily blocked, stealth is a game of chance. The only styles you play now is either you stun bot or you LB bot. When I want to use an ability, I should be able to use it, not be minus 3 abilities because one takes too long and the other can be cancelled because a random projectile followed hit me off screen that I didn't see, and to even use that skill I have to waste another skill.

I hope PvP gets the attention and love it deserves. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Bureda

I just want to start by saying that I know the devs are working very hard and they aren't totally neglecting us. Keep it up!

I am a big Ninja enjoyer and it's the only job that's keeping me playing this game, but after so many seasons it's getting tedious now.

Nin is the only melee job that doesn't have kill pressure outside of LB. Every other Melee job does this. It's not very assassin, is it?

Skill animations for Nin are too long, having to wait for Hyosho, or Meisui or Naruto gang signs to finish before you do literally anything is not fun. Not very agile, is it?

Stealth doesn't work properly, not only are you not able to move faster, an enemy can just back pedal and they will out maneuverer you but you can also by taken out of stealth by literally anything. So it's a game of chance. Not very in control, is it?

It's the only melee job in the game that has to make a offensive or defensive decision, every other one gets both at the same time. Going defensive isn't worth it because it's too weak. Getting punished for no reason, for what?

In summary, when you play Nin you don't feel in control: skill animations are too long, easily blocked, stealth is a game of chance. The only styles you play now is either you stun bot or you LB bot. When I want to use an ability, I should be able to use it, not be minus 3 abilities because one takes too long and the other can be cancelled because a random projectile followed hit me off screen that I didn't see, and to even use that skill I have to waste another skill.

I hope PvP gets the attention and love it deserves. Thanks.

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Interesting. When I'm playing tank/melee, NIN is one of the jobs I fear.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Interesting. When I'm playing tank/melee, NIN is one of the jobs I fear.

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If a Nin is looking good, then that means the team already won for them.

Having been on the receiving end of Nin for a while since 7.1 especially, I have the total opposite experience and I find it to be one of the most oppressive DPS jobs. I do know that they have to pick between defensives and offensives (in the other hand there is defensives baked into other abilities than ninjutsu), but the addition of things like Zeppo, which is probably a good thing, also means that the job is capable of double stunning around purify, and dump so much damage on you that keep going and going and going followed by a rain of bunshined shuriken. On top of it, Seiton is the most broken LB in existence and it has no right sitting on a 90s duration.

Now though I do hope they fix the inconveniences and usability behind the job for people actually playing and enjoying it, for sure. But in terms of power and oppression, this job drives me mad when the gambles behind pay off, and my main issue with it lie with Raiju and Seiton.

Does bushin not increase your damage and give you a defensive shield?

Does sukuchi not allow you to escape but also deliver a powerful attack?

Does doton not give you a defensive buff while also dealing good damage and also having a repeatable CC effect?

Does it. It have two stuns that you can use back to back or bait out purifies and then use again?

Like, it has pure damage options, pure defensive options, and mixture options. I think the design is wonderful and allows for a wide variety of roles depending on team comp.

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Originally Posted by OliviaLugria

Does bushin not increase your damage and give you a defensive shield?

Does sukuchi not allow you to escape but also deliver a powerful attack?

Does doton not give you a defensive buff while also dealing good damage and also having a repeatable CC effect?

Does it. It have two stuns that you can use back to back or bait out purifies and then use again?

Like, it has pure damage options, pure defensive options, and mixture options. I think the design is wonderful and allows for a wide variety of roles depending on team comp.

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Disingenuous default reply 001

Bunshin - not being an instant damage buff and an only one time shield, instead you have to act on it, compare that to monk getting a shield every time it dashes with the most damaging base combo in the game.
Doton - on a job that's missing max HP and isn't tanky by default as other melee, having to go to the spot you want to use it, putting you vulnerable, for an assassin.
Shukuchi - having to use it as an escape means you can't hit someone hard with it and if you were to use it in a high octane environment, chances are with all that AOE you'll have a hard time getting in the 'Assassinate'.
Raiju - Animation got buffed as it should have, animation was taking too long and even now you can be punished with it. Lee Sin kick syndrome.
Huton - Shield get instantly used and you cannot benefit from the buff.

MNK now is ranged with just superior stats and animations. DRG one again, just more straight up damage. SAM, just the king of melee. At high rank those jobs just perform better because they have abilities you can 'Just use'. Crazy concept. I know.

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Originally Posted by OliviaLugria

Does bushin not increase your damage and give you a defensive shield?

Does sukuchi not allow you to escape but also deliver a powerful attack?

Does doton not give you a defensive buff while also dealing good damage and also having a repeatable CC effect?

Does it. It have two stuns that you can use back to back or bait out purifies and then use again?

Like, it has pure damage options, pure defensive options, and mixture options. I think the design is wonderful and allows for a wide variety of roles depending on team comp.

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For of all, any action/spell force you to choose between offense and defense is not a good action/spell
Bushin is only the end result of tune down PvP system for casual playing.
Also, Bushin sync best with ambush, defense reduction only good for 3s when you stuck in the ambush animation.
The real defense reduction is from doton, but that is laughable for a meele compares to DRG, SAM, RPR, and Reaper.

How is doton going to help when now Ranges domnate both Frontline and Crystal Conflict?
I also prefer one controllable stun rather 2 consecutive stuns when most of time 2nd stun usually useless because of Purify
Beside, i think it is fair to ask Shukuchi ts function as what tooltip describes

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

I also prefer one controllable stun rather 2 consecutive stuns when most of time 2nd stun usually useless because of Purify

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If you spam the Raiju attacks back to back mindlessly, then yeah of course your 2nd stun is going to be considered useless.
Purify is only 3 seconds of protection from CC, so even after they cleanse the first attack there is still an opportunity to land the second since it will force them to follow-up with a Guard(unless SAM/BRD) or face tank more CC.

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

For of all, any action/spell force you to choose between offense and defense is not a good action/spell
Bushin is only the end result of tune down PvP system for casual playing.
Also, Bushin sync best with ambush, defense reduction only good for 3s when you stuck in the ambush animation.
The real defense reduction is from doton, but that is laughable for a meele compares to DRG, SAM, RPR, and Reaper.

How is doton going to help when now Ranges domnate both Frontline and Crystal Conflict?
I also prefer one controllable stun rather 2 consecutive stuns when most of time 2nd stun usually useless because of Purify
Beside, i think it is fair to ask Shukuchi ts function as what tooltip describes

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Range dominate in CC? What is this timeline you're playing in? I want in...

Is this thread a Frontline opinion or a CC one, 'cause that's rather important.

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Originally Posted by Atreus

Is this thread a Frontline opinion or a CC one, 'cause that's rather important.

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I don't know which environment OP is describing and don't think there will be an overhaul on Ninja kit until patch 8.1.
My post is just to tune down 5th poster's upselling of Ninja tool kit.
I only thinks Shukuchi need to be fix, but I do agree this new "latency fix" makes current Ninja kit outdated and awkward.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Range dominate in CC? What is this timeline you're playing in? I want in...

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From time line where I get 4 characters to Crystal rank last season
I admitted, I am not a hardcore Crystal Conflict and hop to different character once i capped 450 tome.
Not going to debate you with Range on this as perspective is different
I know you play Machinest and all your concern is from Machinest's perspective.
I am not going to spend time to debate you on this becuase my persepctive is more from Meele and Tank
Debate between two opposite spectrum is waste of time; therefore I never participate in your discussion about range, isnt it?
This is about Ninja kit hopefully for next 8.1
Like I said, i just hope for a minor adjustment on Shukuchi

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Originally Posted by Atreus

Is this thread a Frontline opinion or a CC one, 'cause that's rather important.

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The mode doesn't matter if the kit itself is flawed. So, no, it's not important.

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

From time line where I get 4 characters to Crystal rank last season
I admitted, I am not a hardcore Crystal Conflict and hop to different character once i capped 450 tome.
Not going to debate you with Range on this as perspective is different
I know you play Machinest and all your concern is from Machinest's perspective.
I am not going to spend time to debate you on this becuase my persepctive is more from Meele and Tank
Debate between two opposite spectrum is waste of time; therefore I never participate in your discussion about range, isnt it?
This is about Ninja kit hopefully for next 8.1
Like I said, i just hope for a minor adjustment on Shukuchi

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I mean sure, I'm biased (I do not just play MCH actually), but literally every tier list I've seen by way better players than me (including JP players) has literally put most of the red ranged jobs down at the bottom, so it begs some questions. I know the JP meta used to be much more different in CC back in endwalker, but right now... things seem a lot more aligned between regions to me.

And again, I do hope they fix all the janky ninja delays. I just can't stand how obnoxious they have made Seiton on the other hand. This LB needs to be kneecapped, and I'm saying this as a DNC that literally abuses this every time I play with a NIN.

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

For of all, any action/spell force you to choose between offense and defense is not a good action/spell

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Why? I see it raising the versatility and skill ceiling of a job, and ninja is not unique in this design philosophy.

If you don’t like jobs with that versatility, go play the ones that don’t.

As nin main in PvP i agree with a moment inconvenience of use shukuchi and assasinate, but in other i dont understand the problem, probably beacuse i didnt playing ranking games. Raiju is OP ability, Hyosho with nice timing сan do a lot of damage in target what opened after guard. Huton is abilitie not for the offensive, but for trade the damage in range.

In my vision of ninja concept, the ninja is not a killer, but rather a support damage dealer class. He is not very good on his own, but it does provide good single target pressure and works well when paired with a monk or RDM.

Although, I agree that the "support ninja" is a strange concept. But, I like it. This is very close to the jobs what I enjoy. You have a many options, but few are extremely effective and narrowly targeted. That making ninja very universal option in any pick, but no best in any position.

ps. This is probably why his LB is broken a bit. To give nin more value as a teamwork class.

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Originally Posted by IceEyes

As nin main in PvP i agree with a moment inconvenience of use shukuchi and assasinate, but in other i dont understand the problem, probably beacuse i didnt playing ranking games. Raiju is OP ability, Hyosho with nice timing сan do a lot of damage in target what opened after guard. Huton is abilitie not for the offensive, but for trade the damage in range.

In my vision of ninja concept, the ninja is not a killer, but rather a support damage dealer class. He is not very good on his own, but it does provide good single target pressure and works well when paired with a monk or RDM.

Although, I agree that the "support ninja" is a strange concept. But, I like it. This is very close to the jobs what I enjoy. You have a many options, but few are extremely effective and narrowly targeted. That making ninja very universal option in any pick, but no best in any position.

ps. This is probably why his LB is broken a bit. To give nin more value as a teamwork class.

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I only speak from Ranked perspective when talking about balance and the fun of the job. Stealth Just doesn't work properly because this season they made every ability do damage and if someone targets you at max distance and use an ability your stealth is just ruined. They have 5 yalms of advantage on you. If you try to go stealth from a distance you can't use it because you move too slow.

Huton is another useless ability because the buff disappears when the shield is used up. You only use Huton when you're pressured and that shield disappears instantly, so the buff doesn't exist essentially.

Hyosho takes too long to land and Raiju Animations make it a bit better.

To use doton you have to be in a position of vulnerability.

The whole kit doesn't mesh well.

They are friggen tanks... no boost or gain needed for Frontline.

I think if Ninjas are risky, they should have great reward.

My main complaint with ninja this patch is how long the rotation is to get to Zeppo (along with all the other problems that have been mentioned since the job rework). Most NINs will usually have a mudra on "queue" so it essentially locks me out of Zeppo until I've unloaded my full kit and by then Zeppo has already expired. Before it wasn't the case when the rotation was much simpler with either a Raiju -> Mug -> Hyosho or some combination of those skills.

Also OP needs to post his credentials. I don't want some rando who jobs in Casual all day giving their opinions.

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Originally Posted by ShinyChariot

Also OP needs to post his credentials. I don't want some rando who jobs in Casual all day giving their opinions.

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Papers! PAAAAAPERSSS!!!

Right, let's make sure we only get feedback from the pros, and keep the little people out of it.

My days.

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Originally Posted by JuneBuggy

My main complaint with ninja this patch is how long the rotation is to get to Zeppo (along with all the other problems that have been mentioned since the job rework). Most NINs will usually have a mudra on "queue" so it essentially locks me out of Zeppo until I've unloaded my full kit and by then Zeppo has already expired. Before it wasn't the case when the rotation was much simpler with either a Raiju -> Mug -> Hyosho or some combination of those skills.

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The new ability is more dangerous to NIN then the enemy because of how long the process takes. If there is reflects in the enemy team it becomes another hindrance because you get back amped up damage.

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Originally Posted by ShinyChariot

Also OP needs to post his credentials. I don't want some rando who jobs in Casual all day giving their opinions.

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I'm a nobody, just like you.

Expressing myself to the void because as a paying customer I don't appreciate half assed animations and clunky skill sets from a billion dollar global company.

NIN is at least pretty fine how it is IMHO, and at most deserves to be nerfed ult-wise and tuned in some parts. It is literally a "Competent at all, Master at none" class that is designed to not be as boring as the other classes having binary buttons that provide everything they need in one go which I think is nice that it has. I do want to state, that as a Casual Only Player, who has played several upon several times against and as NIN, these feel like proper things to say.

• Can casually be a ranged job for a short period, with pretty decent burst and consistent damage output, basically not needing to be stuck in the middle of brawls or erode at Ranged Classes resources potentially without even getting in super close range of them, let alone other Melees when most Melee's have long cooldown ranged options, or are designed to stick to targets.
• NIN having all their Skills as an instant cast on the fly would be horrid to play against. Even if the counterplay window is microscopic, hearing a NIN pop their Three Mudra is indicative they're about to actually do something. Instead of just instantly stun chaining you or just laying out a Hyosho Ranryu almost instantly after using Dokumori, so I believe it deserves that little gap at current.
• Being forced to pick from Offensive/Defensive is perfectly fine IMO, since Bunshin already applies a Barrier for a time so they do have a OFF/DEF ability already even if small. NIN has nuance compared to other classes, risk and reward and you gauge how much risk for how much reward.
• Shukuchi Stealth is annoying I will say, for how short it is, but it surely works properly, and the fact you can literally warp with it to a location if you're timing is good enough and still retain stealth even if you were getting hit is extremely satisfying/annoying. NIN already has tools that make having a speedboost on Shukuchi cast either redundant or oppressive with their long range burst potential and LIMIT that is comically stupid to fight against. If you really want to go in fast to burst someone with Stealth, you gotta use a resource for it, and I think that's kind of neat that it isn't binary.

Mind you with all of this listed, I still miss Shadowbringers NIN and would rather play that than this current iteration just because of how stupid it was to screw with people in Frontline, but we're not in Shadowbringers are we?

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Originally Posted by DendrielConcade

NIN is at least pretty fine how it is IMHO, and at most deserves to be nerfed ult-wise and tuned in some parts. It is literally a "Competent at all, Master at none" class that is designed to not be as boring as the other classes having binary buttons that provide everything they need in one go which I think is nice that it has. I do want to state, that as a Casual Only Player, who has played several upon several times against and as NIN, these feel like proper things to say.

• Can casually be a ranged job for a short period, with pretty decent burst and consistent damage output, basically not needing to be stuck in the middle of brawls or erode at Ranged Classes resources potentially without even getting in super close range of them, let alone other Melees when most Melee's have long cooldown ranged options, or are designed to stick to targets.
• NIN having all their Skills as an instant cast on the fly would be horrid to play against. Even if the counterplay window is microscopic, hearing a NIN pop their Three Mudra is indicative they're about to actually do something. Instead of just instantly stun chaining you or just laying out a Hyosho Ranryu almost instantly after using Dokumori, so I believe it deserves that little gap at current.
• Being forced to pick from Offensive/Defensive is perfectly fine IMO, since Bunshin already applies a Barrier for a time so they do have a OFF/DEF ability already even if small. NIN has nuance compared to other classes, risk and reward and you gauge how much risk for how much reward.
• Shukuchi Stealth is annoying I will say, for how short it is, but it surely works properly, and the fact you can literally warp with it to a location if you're timing is good enough and still retain stealth even if you were getting hit is extremely satisfying/annoying. NIN already has tools that make having a speedboost on Shukuchi cast either redundant or oppressive with their long range burst potential and LIMIT that is comically stupid to fight against. If you really want to go in fast to burst someone with Stealth, you gotta use a resource for it, and I think that's kind of neat that it isn't binary.

Mind you with all of this listed, I still miss Shadowbringers NIN and would rather play that than this current iteration just because of how stupid it was to screw with people in Frontline, but we're not in Shadowbringers are we?

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All that word vomit just to tell me you don't play NIN. They turned monk into a ranged melee too now that has absolutely no drawbacks, just like RDM. Those jobs are by far superior than NIN but sure, this job is in a healthy spot! Little bro is acting like he can use NIN abilities at any given time like you can with every other job in the game!
Here, do me a favour, go do some damage numbers quick maths and then on top of that time how long it takes for Hyosho to land.

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Originally Posted by Bureda

All that word vomit just to tell me you don't play NIN. They turned monk into a ranged melee too now that has absolutely no drawbacks, just like RDM. Those jobs are by far superior than NIN but sure, this job is in a healthy spot! Little bro is acting like he can use NIN abilities at any given time like you can with every other job in the game!
Here, do me a favour, go do some damage numbers quick maths and then on top of that time how long it takes for Hyosho to land.

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All this word vomit tells me you want a class that outclasses other classes, or a wilder scale rework of NIN. NIN will never be notably better unless they nerf its Limit, and streamlining Three Mudra by removing options. Also saying MNK is a ranged melee is comical, because they got 2 pew pews for 6k and 2 pew pews at 12k if you want to waste 2 AoE damage resources on poking as a diving melee, while NIN has 3 8k+2k with Bunshin(still have 2 charges after for Shukuchi > Assassinate > Zesho Meppo), a 16k single target ranged attack, and a 4k AoE with a DoT that ticks 4 times all at the range of 20y as a Melee. MNK and RDM were better than NIN before Dawntrail as well in Endwalker times, because guess what? Seiton Tenchu is absolutely crazy of a Limit, and holds back its basekit. If Limit got nerfed notably, which I highly doubt will happen as we've gone through basically a whole expansion with it being untouched, then maybe you could have instant-cast Mudra's and maybe see Shade Shift in some form as a free MIT or even an additional Mudra Cast allowed, but its not happening with how it is.

I will tell you this though, NIN still being subjected to horrid ability lag with Hyosho is stupid as hell and the fact they didn't pull back entirely on all of these slow as hell to hit abilities/skills/spells makes certain things like this unreliable as hell. The fact you can almost hit Assassinate after using Shukuchi at the same time Hyosho lands if you cast them basically at the same time is painfully stupid, but they think its better for the game that effects line up with damage at the cost of gameplay.

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Originally Posted by DendrielConcade

NIN is at least pretty fine how it is IMHO, and at most deserves to be nerfed ult-wise and tuned in some parts. It is literally a "Competent at all, Master at none" class that is designed to not be as boring as the other classes having binary buttons that provide everything they need in one go which I think is nice that it has. I do want to state, that as a Casual Only Player, who has played several upon several times against and as NIN, these feel like proper things to say.

• Can casually be a ranged job for a short period, with pretty decent burst and consistent damage output, basically not needing to be stuck in the middle of brawls or erode at Ranged Classes resources potentially without even getting in super close range of them, let alone other Melees when most Melee's have long cooldown ranged options, or are designed to stick to targets.
• NIN having all their Skills as an instant cast on the fly would be horrid to play against. Even if the counterplay window is microscopic, hearing a NIN pop their Three Mudra is indicative they're about to actually do something. Instead of just instantly stun chaining you or just laying out a Hyosho Ranryu almost instantly after using Dokumori, so I believe it deserves that little gap at current.
• Being forced to pick from Offensive/Defensive is perfectly fine IMO, since Bunshin already applies a Barrier for a time so they do have a OFF/DEF ability already even if small. NIN has nuance compared to other classes, risk and reward and you gauge how much risk for how much reward.
• Shukuchi Stealth is annoying I will say, for how short it is, but it surely works properly, and the fact you can literally warp with it to a location if you're timing is good enough and still retain stealth even if you were getting hit is extremely satisfying/annoying. NIN already has tools that make having a speedboost on Shukuchi cast either redundant or oppressive with their long range burst potential and LIMIT that is comically stupid to fight against. If you really want to go in fast to burst someone with Stealth, you gotta use a resource for it, and I think that's kind of neat that it isn't binary.

Mind you with all of this listed, I still miss Shadowbringers NIN and would rather play that than this current iteration just because of how stupid it was to screw with people in Frontline, but we're not in Shadowbringers are we?

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Well, you certainly can express your opinion as a casual player
I do aware casual players are lacking of experience on how to handle Ninja on Frontline so I am not surprize.
However, I think this discussion is aim for non casual play as issues on reveals at higher game play.

Also, for me, your take on Shaowbringer version is over rated because I find it is only good for casual players to steal kill and running away.

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Originally Posted by DendrielConcade

All this word vomit tells me you want a class that outclasses other classes, or a wilder scale rework of NIN. NIN will never be notably better unless they nerf its Limit, and streamlining Three Mudra by removing options. Also saying MNK is a ranged melee is comical, because they got 2 pew pews for 6k and 2 pew pews at 12k if you want to waste 2 AoE damage resources on poking as a diving melee, while NIN has 3 8k+2k with Bunshin(still have 2 charges after for Shukuchi > Assassinate > Zesho Meppo), a 16k single target ranged attack, and a 4k AoE with a DoT that ticks 4 times all at the range of 20y as a Melee. MNK and RDM were better than NIN before Dawntrail as well in Endwalker times, because guess what? Seiton Tenchu is absolutely crazy of a Limit, and holds back its basekit. If Limit got nerfed notably, which I highly doubt will happen as we've gone through basically a whole expansion with it being untouched, then maybe you could have instant-cast Mudra's and maybe see Shade Shift in some form as a free MIT or even an additional Mudra Cast allowed, but its not happening with how it is.

I will tell you this though, NIN still being subjected to horrid ability lag with Hyosho is stupid as hell and the fact they didn't pull back entirely on all of these slow as hell to hit abilities/skills/spells makes certain things like this unreliable as hell. The fact you can almost hit Assassinate after using Shukuchi at the same time Hyosho lands if you cast them basically at the same time is painfully stupid, but they think its better for the game that effects line up with damage at the cost of gameplay.

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You can't even comprehend the values of MNK LB for example, it comes up so early that it wins you a fight and dictates the flow of the game. You can't even comprehend that RDM LB isn't just some AOE Damage, you use that once again to control the fights and control the flow of the game. You like your own words too much and think that NIN with LB 5-man chain every time.

Fact of the matter is both of those jobs have a bloated kit, able to damage at any position, able to defend at any given time. If you use a doton, you have to stand in it, otherwise you wasted a Mudra, if you use a Hoton under pressure, you HAVE to waste a mudra and the buff you get from it is non-existent, you're ONLY using it for the shield, not to benefit from the buff. That's not a problem for ANY of the melee jobs.

You're trying to give me criticism and advice but you can't handle it in return. You're just typing for the sake of it at this point.

NIN Kit is clunky and that's a fact. Stealth is useless and that's a fact, this game boasts too many AOE abilities. I want quality of life changes for this job, they have stupid-proofed nearly every job in the game.

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Originally Posted by Bureda

Words

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When did I downplay MNK/RDM Limit? I said both are better off because their Limits play off their combos, if you just MNK Limit it will not do a thing unless you have teammates, RDM Limit is basically just a single Flare cast from BLM if you use it purely offensively, and you're suppose to use them with your kit, and with your team in mind as MNK is stuck in the animation, and RDM only gets value out of theirs if its on top of them or in a team fight. NIN sees a target less than 50% and removes them, and can continue to remove them in a short chain, it has more snowball potential than both MNK and RDM Limit, but obvious does almost nothing on its own, though NIN has burst options to get there even if clunky and takes a lot more effort than other DPS. NIN also has a more bloated kit than RDM and MNK, since those two are more streamlined now compared to before, and also extremely binary on how they play(RDM Dives, Melee, Hop Back, Nuke, Pew Pew. Of course with some nuance on their barrier and silence if you really want to call that nuance.)(MNK walks forward and Melee combos, it really isn't that crazy, you are just slowly building up to your big nuke at the end of your melee combo adding in ranged attacks/gap closers/CC till you either drop a hard combo and Limit or Limit to catch someone in a bad space.) but that doesn't stop the stupidity of RDM having both a AoE Silence and an AoE Stun on a Diving Burst character.

Like what do you want to hear from this anyways? NIN is not going to be the fantasy you want in the state that it currently is. Its not a stealth assassin in PvE, and PvP is usually an over-exaggerated PvE kit, so its going to be using Mudras, and with how its kit is right now, making NIN have every Mudra Action at will to cast instantly and also making actions like Huiton and Meisui either not consume resources for Damage or squish them into other options that do damage or way too much value from one, while also having its Limit? You also want stealth to be useful with all of this too, which the only conjecture I can offer is immune to being exposed for 1s after warping so you don't immediately get removed from it, adding movement speed to it makes Huton redundant and adding extra duration still invalidates what I assume you don't like which is using it proactively because you get instantly knocked out of it unless you time it extremely well when nothing hits you. NIN would need a longer Limit cooldown, or entirely reworked Limit if we're going to squish Huton and Meisui into one Non-Mudra button, and it would probably also lose some bits off of its other Mudra's if everything else is retained.

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

Well, you certainly can express your opinion as a casual player
I do aware casual players are lacking of experience on how to handle Ninja on Frontline so I am not surprize.
However, I think this discussion is aim for non casual play as issues on reveals at higher game play.

Also, for me, your take on Shaowbringer version is over rated because I find it is only good for casual players to steal kill and running away.

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I don't even know what "lacking of experience on how to handle NIN on Frontline" means and why this matters here, I play Frontline sparsely and handle NIN like every class that is in a bad position if/when they do or forced into it. Actually if you look at what he started with, he states that NIN isn't fun(subjective), not an assassin and lacks control in gameplay, also stating you use DMG resources for DEF Utility which holds its DMG back compared to something like Riddle of Earth being both on MNK. Nothing in the starting post suggests this is for high level, just a fundamental unhappiness with the class as a whole in PvP which is entirely fair to have especially when its only Job keeping him playing the game as a whole. I will also state the comment about SB NIN is more out of comedy than seriousness, I never touched The Feast, and I derived my enjoyment from NIN by knocking players off their mounts and running off, simply as that, because current NIN feels so much sweatier to play.

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Originally Posted by DendrielConcade

When did I downplay MNK/RDM Limit? I said both are better off because their Limits play off their combos, if you just MNK Limit it will not do a thing unless you have teammates, RDM Limit is basically just a single Flare cast from BLM if you use it purely offensively, and you're suppose to use them with your kit, and with your team in mind as MNK is stuck in the animation, and RDM only gets value out of theirs if its on top of them or in a team fight. NIN sees a target less than 50% and removes them, and can continue to remove them in a short chain, it has more snowball potential than both MNK and RDM Limit, but obvious does almost nothing on its own, though NIN has burst options to get there even if clunky and takes a lot more effort than other DPS. NIN also has a more bloated kit than RDM and MNK, since those two are more streamlined now compared to before, and also extremely binary on how they play(RDM Dives, Melee, Hop Back, Nuke, Pew Pew. Of course with some nuance on their barrier and silence if you really want to call that nuance.)(MNK walks forward and Melee combos, it really isn't that crazy, you are just slowly building up to your big nuke at the end of your melee combo adding in ranged attacks/gap closers/CC till you either drop a hard combo and Limit or Limit to catch someone in a bad space.) but that doesn't stop the stupidity of RDM having both a AoE Silence and an AoE Stun on a Diving Burst character.

Like what do you want to hear from this anyways? NIN is not going to be the fantasy you want in the state that it currently is. Its not a stealth assassin in PvE, and PvP is usually an over-exaggerated PvE kit, so its going to be using Mudras, and with how its kit is right now, making NIN have every Mudra Action at will to cast instantly and also making actions like Huiton and Meisui either not consume resources for Damage or squish them into other options that do damage or way too much value from one, while also having its Limit? You also want stealth to be useful with all of this too, which the only conjecture I can offer is immune to being exposed for 1s after warping so you don't immediately get removed from it, adding movement speed to it makes Huton redundant and adding extra duration still invalidates what I assume you don't like which is using it proactively because you get instantly knocked out of it unless you time it extremely well when nothing hits you. NIN would need a longer Limit cooldown, or entirely reworked Limit if we're going to squish Huton and Meisui into one Non-Mudra button, and it would probably also lose some bits off of its other Mudra's if everything else is retained.

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You either need to take your meds or you're the most god tier ninja to ever grace this realm of existence.

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Originally Posted by Bureda

You either need to take your meds or you're the most god tier ninja to ever grace this realm of existence.

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I'm sorry, I didn't ask for someone being painfully rude when trying to make a point? Complain all you want I guess with no recourse, they'll never change it till 8.x anyways and still won't give you what you want probably, better hope this ages poorly then for your sake or you'll loose what keeps you playing.

I'll give you a like God Ninja, one day I hope to attain your supremacy where I see no flaws in the kit. Anyway, you're right. I pray.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...6464d20691d4c&

It took me a while to get the hang of it, but after a fair bit of practice I can cook on ninja. In FL it relies a bit on the team to engage with you, but it can absolutely confirm KOs no prob (even without seiton) and live to tell the tale.