How should they address the disparity within the role?

FRU world race comps, unsurprisingly, largely had AST/SCH for their healers. WHM got a few uses but as far as I can tell there are no SGEs among the top 20 parties.

Obviously AST/SCH have raid buffs in a heavily 2m burst meta, but even without them they both have better healing toolkits than WHM/SGE for the way content is designed, so there isn't really a reason to use the latter outside how comfortable they are at using said jobs, though afaik it's not bad enough to lock them out of PF so far.

The rDPS disparity can probably be addressed by doing stuff like upping WHM/SGE's potencies and reducing the buff amount on AST/SCH, but what else could be done to make them worth having to the party?

Honestly if the tiny minority that du ultimate prog is the only situation in which your healers unbalance, you ought to get time off as a developer, you've done ~perfect work. That's such a marginal imbalance (and you'll always have imbalance, everything else is 110% utopian to assume), it really has no bearing.

I feel like at this point we got to look at sage and white mage and ask what do they offer over their counterparts Scholar and Astro, even healing/utility kits on Ast/Sch are way stronger then utility on whm/sage.

I do actually think a part of that is current healer design is so static that mild variance in damage & utility will just make a clear choice, theirs also a question with astro that should a top end astro player be rewarded compared to a white mage, previously i might have been against that but now I think white mage should be a lot closer in total damage due to not having to jump through as much hoops as astro to get there.

Sage and Scholar is a conversation where Scholar just out classes Sage's kit because both classes were closely designed but Scholar brings more vital and a more stronger kit then Sage, even if sage feels more refined and less annoying to use in comparison.

Ideally healers should have more different/stronger niches, its a problem relating to making every job relative to each other which healer has been the most known for doing this out of anything else, so the choice is obvious even when the differences aren't that massive.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

healers should have more different/stronger niches

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To have "niches" you need gameplay variability. All of the encounters are mostly "move here then here", "hit boss", "restore HP/mitigate"- There are no other meaningful mechanics beyond do the dance and mitigate then fill bars up. No status effects, no CC, no unique buffs to apply or debuffs to handle. Utility and its niches have been steadily been removed- You can't have uniquely designed jobs because the game has been designing them away in order for every job to be able to tackle all the content.

I mean on paper the niches are easy:

* AST and WHM are focused more on regen and re-healing.
* Meanwhile SCH and SGE are focused on pre-emptive mitigation.
* Also AST and SCH are focused more on utility effects and "tricks".
* Meanwhile SGE and WHM are focused more on raw output and "power".

The funny thing is, this works except for two spanners the devs "usual" pitfalls throw into this, and sadly for Ultimate purposes they entirely break the balance setup's back:

* The extra power in healing exists, but with how meaningless maximum healing output is - since you virtually never want to get caught in a situation where that is needed, you want to heal it all with your CDs - it just has absolutely no bearing on effective use.
* For balancing reasons they opted to make the damage output the same, which doesn't work as due to their niche, WHM and SGE would need to deal more even with the extra RDPS from cards/debuff included (and Picto being so OP also indirectly adds more AST/SCH damage and this would automatically be fixed if they finally curb PCT damage and downtime enjoyment).

But yeah, on paper it's easy. AST and SCH bring all kinds of cool utilities, but WHM and SGE heal and nuke for more. Meanwhile AST and WHM can re-heal, SCH and SGE can "pre-heal". Easy.

That sounds about right. You inevitably still have to do some casted heals in prog or with lower item levels, which is personal dps lost, and buffs scale better on the other end with parties with better gearing and practice as well, so SGE/WHM should have significantly higher personal dps than the other two to make up for both cases.

I've also been thinking lately that AST's buffs being as good as they are should've only been allowed with the RNG. Have less consistency than WHM but higher output when the RNG's good, and have ways to minimize the lows of bad RNG with more effort.

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Originally Posted by Azurarok

That sounds about right. You inevitably still have to do some casted heals in prog or with lower item levels, which is personal dps lost, and buffs scale better on the other end with parties with better gearing and practice as well, so SGE/WHM should have significantly higher personal dps than the other two to make up for both cases.

I've also been thinking lately that AST's buffs being as good as they are should've only been allowed with the RNG. Have less consistency than WHM but higher output when the RNG's good, and have ways to minimize the lows of bad RNG with more effort.

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So, think about what you just said, and then think about how you would feel about doing anything when levelling or solo content as an AST. Would it sound like an improvement, or even more painful.

Because after having several (less than successful) reworks, this is one question that people often don't ask themselves- and before you may step in and say' well, you can always do those things on another job"- my answer to that is - yes, I can and sometimes do- but it shouldn't be necessary because it's miserable otherwise.

The SCH SGE discrepancy is basically because SCH can warp entire mitigation plans around it. It has one extra mitigation than SGE on a purely raw mitigation front. It’s level 80 oGCD shield ability is infinitely better than SGE’s in 99% of instances and lasts near 4* as long and the CD reduction on recitation means it can vomit out shields that are just unmatched. Not even spreadlo itself (which is still limited by deployments 90 second CD) but even altering tank mitigation plans by critlo’s effective HP addition. Then of course spreadlo itself which makes SCH like GCD buffs (of which it has FOUR even if Seraphism cant affect spreadlo) and with said buffs can replace 5+ mitigations alone. Its utility is completely unmatched by any other ability in the game. Deployment is easily the strongest ability in the game and it isn’t even remotely close

Then on top of that as if that’s not enough SCH has utility in the form of a pseudo mitigation with expedient which makes mechanics much easier to solve, is the only job in the game who can generate its ENTIRE gauge with the press of a button AND deletes its only weakness in on the move pure healing with Seraphism

WHAT does SGE even offer to combat that? SGE is basically a regen healer in disguise fighting the class that’s bent the game around its finger for so long that PCT looks like a baby in comparison. It’s the only class that has never NOT been the meta pick. SCH has warped the game around it for so long SGE’s only real “balance hope” is simply the fact some people play it because SCH can be clunky

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

snip for characters

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What’s most confusing to me is that in general you don’t really see people acknowledging how absolutely busted Scholar has been for quite a long time. Though I guess maybe it’s just so obvious it’s never needed to be said. And I say that as one of the last remaining Scholar mains in existence lol.

I think one of the reasons Scholar has been so enduringly superior as a healer is that they’re constantly ‘power creeping’ it. That is to say, they add conditionals or tactical considerations to the abilities that are supposed to limit their strength when used reactively/without a plan…then immediately go and remove those conditions and considerations with things like Recitation allowing forced crits for pretty much every mechanic or even things like Excogitation auto-applying if the target doesn’t reach 50% (but keeping the same massive potency it had when it didn’t auto-apply lol). What started out as a specialised, tactical job with clear strengths and weaknesses (i.e strong single target weaker aoe etc), has gradually become so powerful that it can just do anything now. I mean, I can’t really think of any mechanic that can’t be solved with using Seraphism and farting out literal miracles lol

Whether Astrologian is in the same category of ‘being ridiculously perfect relative to encounter design’, I honestly don’t know. But I think if they want to address the disparity between healers that really needs to start with looking at how SCH compares with SGE (and the other healers too) and their capabilities/strengths/weaknesses. Then they need to determine an actual concrete identity for White Mage beyond ‘does a heal’ lol. Right now its main identity is basically the same as Sage’s lol - ‘I’m a worse version of my superior counterpart!’

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

So, think about what you just said, and then think about how you would feel about doing anything when levelling or solo content as an AST. Would it sound like an improvement, or even more painful.

Because after having several (less than successful) reworks, this is one question that people often don't ask themselves- and before you may step in and say' well, you can always do those things on another job"- my answer to that is - yes, I can and sometimes do- but it shouldn't be necessary because it's miserable otherwise.

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I mean that problem is because of the 2 minute meta and the no nerfs balancing. It's shifting more and more of AST's damage output to its buffs and away from their personal dps.

Also they had to add multipliers to it, BRD, and DNC for them to be able to clear Criterion dungeons, so if it really starts to become a problem that's an option, though a terrible bandaid fix imo.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

The SCH SGE discrepancy is basically because SCH can warp entire mitigation plans around it. It has one extra mitigation than SGE on a purely raw mitigation front. It’s level 80 oGCD shield ability is infinitely better than SGE’s in 99% of instances and lasts near 4* as long and the CD reduction on recitation means it can vomit out shields that are just unmatched. Not even spreadlo itself (which is still limited by deployments 90 second CD) but even altering tank mitigation plans by critlo’s effective HP addition. Then of course spreadlo itself which makes SCH like GCD buffs (of which it has FOUR even if Seraphism cant affect spreadlo) and with said buffs can replace 5+ mitigations alone. Its utility is completely unmatched by any other ability in the game. Deployment is easily the strongest ability in the game and it isn’t even remotely close

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I'll be honest, I flat out don't get why Deployment exists. The job has group shield. And... slightly indirect but naturally far more powerful group shield? Like, why?

And I'm fine with it being unique with Deployment, but why also have Succor then? Would be kinda cool if you had to work around a naturally weaker but less CD-y Deployment tactics because that kinda mirrors Sage beautifully (Scholar does GCD Adlo -> oGCD Deployment, result is a very strong shield on 1 target + a 75%-80% Sage power on everyone else), Sage as the output healer has oGCD Eukrasia -> GCD shield, more total overall shield, no big shield on one person. It'd be an elegant setup, and put some special emphasis on job elements.

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

So, think about what you just said, and then think about how you would feel about doing anything when levelling or solo content as an AST. Would it sound like an improvement, or even more painful.

Because after having several (less than successful) reworks, this is one question that people often don't ask themselves- and before you may step in and say' well, you can always do those things on another job"- my answer to that is - yes, I can and sometimes do- but it shouldn't be necessary because it's miserable otherwise.

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Eh, that's not something I'd ever be worried about. It's extremely unlikely the devs want to move towards more randomness so such a move would already be hugely unlikely, but even if it'd be some hyper-marginal randomness and have ~zero effect, anyways. Like the procs on Red Mage, that at higher levels really don't do a lot to the overall playstyle at all any more.

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

To have "niches" you need gameplay variability. All of the encounters are mostly "move here then here", "hit boss", "restore HP/mitigate"- There are no other meaningful mechanics beyond do the dance and mitigate then fill bars up. No status effects, no CC, no unique buffs to apply or debuffs to handle. Utility and its niches have been steadily been removed- You can't have uniquely designed jobs because the game has been designing them away in order for every job to be able to tackle all the content.

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Look how well that's been going you can never design a game to be 100% balanced, getting rid of what made every job fun and different has been pointless because now your just playing different versions of the same job, but people still only bring the "good jobs" despite how much we have had to cater to removing job Identity for the sake of people at the highest end wanting to play any job. People now just mostly define what job is "meta" by dps numbers.

Ultimately I'm not arguing that making Jobs more fun and different would make the game more Balanced, but this approach we've had for three expansions now has clearly not properly worked if we're still discussing why some jobs are too bad or too good.

No amount of making every job play the same will stop people from optimising the game and wanting "meta" jobs over "non meta jobs". I personally would rather go back to having more fun and creative Jobs, what's the point of having a more boring game because we're trying to cater to a impossible task.

You're never going to entirely solve job pick rates unless you design content specifically so different jobs are better in different pieces of content. If all content is the same, then it doesn't matter what you do with the jobs--there will always be one with bigger numbers or better utility, so that is the one people will pick.

Unfortunately, FFXIV is pretty deep in the 'all content is the same' hole. Encounter design is completely standardized, and there are no special mechanics to speak of that different healers could interact with.

SE seems pretty comfy and unwilling to change in this regard, so I suppose unless they pull a post-Legion WoW and just start adding interactables into instances that only certain [classes/jobs] can interact with, this will probably never change.

Really sucks.

They have made WHM and SGE slightly more appealing before, with a short phase dps check that's outside of 2 minutes like p4 TOP.

You can choose to run SGE/WHM and move Phlegma/Misery into the phase if you're struggling with the check. Because outside of 2 minutes, SCH and AST dps is nothing special.

If they make more short phase dps checks where you can't rely on 2 minute alignment, that makes SGE more appealing than SCH in groups with weaker damage.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

They have made WHM and SGE slightly more appealing before, with a short phase dps check that's outside of 2 minutes like p4 TOP.

You can choose to run SGE/WHM and move Phlegma/Misery into the phase if you're struggling with the check. Because outside of 2 minutes, SCH and AST dps is nothing special.

If they make more short phase dps checks where you can't rely on 2 minute alignment, that makes SGE more appealing than SCH in groups with weaker damage.

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To be fair even in that situation SCH still was played 3 to 1 more times than SGE.

AST and WHM can be fixed with damage niches (because regen healing is inherently useless), but the entire game is designed around the output of the shield healer and SCH is just such a better shield healer than SGE

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Originally Posted by Azurarok

I mean that problem is because of the 2 minute meta and the no nerfs balancing. It's shifting more and more of AST's damage output to its buffs and away from their personal dps.

Also they had to add multipliers to it, BRD, and DNC for them to be able to clear Criterion dungeons, so if it really starts to become a problem that's an option, though a terrible bandaid fix imo.

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I see your point now, and I would agree. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

To be fair even in that situation SCH still was played 3 to 1 more times than SGE.

AST and WHM can be fixed with damage niches (because regen healing is inherently useless), but the entire game is designed around the output of the shield healer and SCH is just such a better shield healer than SGE

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I think they could give SGE a niche if they went all in on the damage healer aspect.

If, for example, SGE has less mitigative tools, still enough to clear, but they have instead vastly superior damage over SCH.

So in this case, with a SGE, you'd just barely survive mechanics if mitigation is perfect but you have a larger leeway on the dps check. Meanwhile, SCH doesn't provide the large leeway but you have a much safer run overall.

That way, SGE gets a niche filling in for lower total dps teams or speedkilling, while SCH remains the more generalist barrier healer. It wouldn't make SGE a vastly popular pick, but it would give them a niche to shine in.

Speaking of Deployment Tactic reminds of those days when Fairies were targetable with heals. Cast a Succor > 1st raidwide happens > Deploy the well placed fairy > gets a 2nd layer of party shield for 2nd raidwide. Deploying Eye for an Eye was also a thing, too.

Today? I only get to do that by prepull adlo myself & the tank for a w2w so I get to deploy the barrier from myself once the tank’s chipped away.

To this date, I’ve only seen exactly 2 other pug SCH who does this and it was ShB the last time I’ve seen them. They’re rare animals.