Can we nerf or remove reflect mechanics in PvP? Leave it in PvE.

I know you don't play your own game Square Penix, so I'm going to leave this here incase you accidentally try to make some meaningful changes.

Nerf reflects, why does SAM, GNB and BLM have reflect for. They already do absurd damage. It's a PvE mechanic that should stay in PvE or not be a main source of DPS because of how badly it is scaled and calculated.

Why does WHM burst for 20k in am AoE. Healers should not be doing the damage they are doing.

Nerf crowd control radius or make them single target. How does RDM still have a eggplant sized silence and ogcd stun.

Make this mode fun and not tedious. It's 2024 and you're pretending communication is an issue like it's 1969.

Anyway, I am expecting you to balance things from the two casual matches you had on Twitch yesterday but I figured. I'd shout at the void a little.

Hey Bureda, long time no see (sorta), don't mind me, just giving my opinion on the reflects. So for a start, I think reflects are alright to keep as they serve as a decent deterrent and punishment tool, but numbers gotta be crunched.

• GNB - I can 100% see this getting nerfed, either in duration (10s -> 6-8s) or/and amount (4000 -> 3000), latter especially because it can be enhanced with No Mercy (from Dash). Old reflect could be justified sort of (pre 7.1) because a lot of damage was locked behind DPS Junction - which we no longer have with the allrounder design.
• BLM - It's only 3000 per hit and if used it means they couldn't get to use Wreath of Fire, which is a significant opportunity cost.
• SAM - On one hand, it's a relatively short duration of 4s and has a fairly known and noticable activation sound. On another, it buffs itself with subsequent hits from 6000 to 7200 and also buffs other attacks from SAM. New hitreg changes also allow much more reactive usage of Hissatsu: Chiten so this is definitely a bit much - I think it either needs to lose its self-buffing from Kuzushi, or needs to have the reflect value reduced to like 4000-4500 per hit.

BLM's ice wreath is fine, it already sorta hinders their damage and burst potential. Besides without it they're a free target to bully without much counterplay on their part.

I agree with Volfe, mostly because I can't recall having killed anyone with my ice wreath as BLM yet. And even with it up I feel pretty squishy. Can't talk about the other jobs since I don't really play those in PvP.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Hey Bureda, long time no see (sorta), don't mind me, just giving my opinion on the reflects. So for a start, I think reflects are alright to keep as they serve as a decent deterrent and punishment tool, but numbers gotta be crunched.

• GNB - I can 100% see this getting nerfed, either in duration (10s -> 6-8s) or/and amount (4000 -> 3000), latter especially because it can be enhanced with No Mercy (from Dash). Old reflect could be justified sort of (pre 7.1) because a lot of damage was locked behind DPS Junction - which we no longer have with the allrounder design.
• BLM - It's only 3000 per hit and if used it means they couldn't get to use Wreath of Fire, which is a significant opportunity cost.
• SAM - On one hand, it's a relatively short duration of 4s and has a fairly known and noticable activation sound. On another, it buffs itself with subsequent hits from 6000 to 7200 and also buffs other attacks from SAM. New hitreg changes also allow much more reactive usage of Hissatsu: Chiten so this is definitely a bit much - I think it either needs to lose its self-buffing from Kuzushi, or needs to have the reflect value reduced to like 4000-4500 per hit.

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You can literally only use reflect with any of those jobs and you're going to see 300k + damage in like a 4 to 7 minute game. Feel free to muck about in casuals if you want to test it out.

It's not an opportunity loss for BLM because their new kit is a duellist kit. If someone has aggro on you, you're dishing out free damage whilst having the option to heal for like 30k if you get pressured by 2 or more or continue attacking from range key targets. BLM mains can't get behind a job unless is super oppressive. It already is pre 7.1 MNK on wheels.

Reflect is non-reactive and it's free damage. On paper it may sound good but the truth is with how much aoe and how much stuff flies around, you're going to catch strays, so it ends up less about punishing those unaware because you have to take the L even when you're careful.

Samurai does NOT have a reflect ability in pve. Third Eye is the closest you can get as far as having an exact defensive skill is concerned. However, they don't have a reflective skill at all. Leave the samurais alone. They're fine as is....wait, when did Chiten get buff? It's not needed. 6k per hit?

I-I'm going back to my corner. I can't. Throw that back to 4k, or nerf it to 3. 6 is overkill.

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Originally Posted by Mistress_Irika

Samurai does NOT have a reflect ability in pve. Third Eye is the closest you can get as far as having an exact defensive skill is concerned. However, they don't have a reflective skill at all. Leave the samurais alone. They're fine as is....wait, when did Chiten get buff? It's not needed. 6k per hit?

I-I'm going back to my corner. I can't. Throw that back to 4k, or nerf it to 3. 6 is overkill.

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The way you process information is very unique. So, is reflect okay or not okay? I'm getting mixed signals.

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Originally Posted by Bureda

You can literally only use reflect with any of those jobs and you're going to see 300k + damage in like a 4 to 7 minute game. Feel free to muck about in casuals if you want to test it out.

It's not an opportunity loss for BLM because their new kit is a duellist kit. If someone has aggro on you, you're dishing out free damage whilst having the option to heal for like 30k if you get pressured by 2 or more or continue attacking from range key targets. BLM mains can't get behind a job unless is super oppressive. It already is pre 7.1 MNK on wheels.

Reflect is non-reactive and it's free damage. On paper it may sound good but the truth is with how much aoe and how much stuff flies around, you're going to catch strays, so it ends up less about punishing those unaware because you have to take the L even when you're careful.

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I agree with you that the numbers that reflect can provide are solid, but I argue in casual its a bit inflated, so I am not going to base my opinion on that, but instead an environment where players will actually reasonably stop after 2-3 hits if not before and switch targets. Regarding AOE cleaves, it's a sour apple we gotta deal with I suppose.

As for "it's not an opportunity loss for BLM", I'm sorry what? Unless you were in Umbral Ice to begin with, you need to interrupt your Fire casting by going Blizzard I (4500) to activate it (unless you have stacks for Freeze), at which you have to either decide to go Paradox -> High Blizzard II (6000 -> 9000) or Fire I -> Paradox -> High Fire II (6000 -> 6000 -> 12000) to get back going, assuming no usage of Xenoglossy / Burst. Getting Xeno heals also means dropping 1/3 of the damage, so you start hitting like a wet noodle if you didn't press Wreath of Ice in time to get good value out of it, if you get it and they don't hard swap.

Sure, BLM is now a fair bit tankier and has options to defend themselves, but there is absolutely trade-off and Wreath of Fire is nothing to scoff at. Wreath of Ice reflect is fine.

Reflect effects also bug out the healing aspect of Sacred Claim (Imperator in DT, Confiteor in EW) and hasn't been fixed since Endwalker. I don't mind that reflects exist, but they have not ironed out all interactions with it super well.

I... do not know what to make of it, but reflects sure have gone sky high due to the potency buffs they got, and the amount of AoE cleaves 7.1 introduced.

You guys read skill descriptions?

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Originally Posted by Bureda

The way you process information is very unique. So, is reflect okay or not okay? I'm getting mixed signals.

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Reflect is fine as is. Like any other defensive ability that goes off everyone just needs to avoid attacking that player until the defenses expire. I just don't understand the buffs behind it.

I won't speak on GNB and BLM simply because I don't have full mastery over those classes. SAM, on the other hand, I'm heavily confused. You're already get so much out of Chiten alone. I don't see the reason why the reflective damage needs to go up on that class. They've been receiving buff after buff since the calamity, and it's getting to the point where they're turning into an overtuned class.

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Originally Posted by Mistress_Irika

SAM, on the other hand, I'm heavily confused. You're already get so much out of Chiten alone. I don't see the reason why the reflective damage needs to go up on that class. They've been receiving buff after buff since the calamity, and it's getting to the point where they're turning into an overtuned class.

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Yannow what's amusing 'bout that? It was happening all the way up to the big EW revamp as well. I used to like playing SAM, 5.x state that is, however... they kept tooling around with Chiten. Got to the stage I was really raising my eyebrows at how strong they were making the counter, so much so I started stepping off the job because it was just too much (especially in mass PvP), and that was carrying on right up to when they changed the pvp system in EW.

Now with the current SAM, that I don't touch with a malm-long naginata because full on OHKO gimmicks are cringe (fite me), it's happening again. All while possessing that additional layer of lethality as a "bonus". Devs just really like the concept of Chiten it seems, more than any other damage reflection skill ever. B-b-but the job fantasy... ugh.

Don't get me wrong, I actually love the concept of punishment skills, they're one of my favourite skill types, but not when they're poorly implemented.

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Originally Posted by ThreeBeastSmile

...Don't get me wrong, I actually love the concept of punishment skills, they're one of my favourite skill types, but not when they're poorly implemented.

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I think something that could be a cool implementation of a reflective ability would be one that reflects the full damage of one attack from your target under the conditions of;

The attack was targeted at you
The attack must register at least 10k potency
and the attack isn't a limit break.

Then gives you additional damage on your next 3 abilities damage equal to 20% of the damage reflected as a bonus reward.

An ability like this would effectively work as a counter if time of the active buff from popping the ability is something like 1 second. It would require the user to know the burst patterns of all their enemies and also predict when their target is about to use their heavy hitting attack. It would also allow for all sorts of interesting gameplay of trying to counter the juiciest potency attacks and mind games your opponent can do to bait you to waste your counter (it only last 1 second afterall)

Could be really a strong ability for very skilled players and near useless for low skill players instead of the one-size fits all low skill abilities of "press button, everything go burr and reflect"

One change i'd suggest is making reflect proc only once per skill. Though it's funny watching Ninjas and Bards hit reflect with their multi-hit attacks and explode.

PvP and PvE mechanics is two entirely different things in this game, unlike other MMOs where they end bashing the PvE front when they do balance things, that is not so much an option now if at all, since it is two different skillsets.