Don't let dumb job changes ruin the game for you.

I'd like to preface by saying I've been playing since 4.0 and have had plenty of conversation with friends of both casual and super hardcore skill levels. I agree that a lot of jobs have had their identity removed or in machinist case get key functionalities denied from them. However I have also noticed that despite the discourse I see plenty of people still enjoying these jobs to the fullest. The forums tends to create an echo chamber of disgruntledness that inaccurately represents just how bad certain aspects of the game feels. Yeah it sucks i can't auto crossbow to reset double check and i can't use flamethrower with feeling like im knee capping my damage but i still love machinist. On top of that I love that one of my favorite jobs gives me something to complain about and get passionate conversations in with other players and friends. A job shouldn't be kept bad to create conversation around it but be appreciative of how these things have created something for you to feel passionate about and discuss with your community about visions for your dream designs! I miss dragoon having things to manage like heavy thrust and blood gauge but I have so much fun whining back and forward with friends and then we spiral into a nostalgic talk about things they miss in old jobs and like in new jobs. This post isn't to excuse Square Enix's neglect but to help people find a silver lining in things outside our immediate control. Don't let the forums make you sad but instead have a good laugh at the devs with your fellow adventurers!

I've never been a fan of the term "coping", but when you're trying to encourage players to look on the bright side of the game's myriad changes for the worse by saying you can have fun complaining about how much better things used to be with your friends, I think you're pretty much past the point of no return. There's optimism and then there's edging into a form of denial. Things suck, that's okay.

Also, no one is coming here happy and then "allowing" the forum to impress something negative on them that wasn't there previously. What is it with people lately and this absolute terror of expressing or reading about discontent or criticism?

Yeah it's also... I would simply not be playing if I didn't enjoy it. I don't need to #dramafaint on the forum about it.

Negative feedback is automatically because I am - overall - happily playing but things could still be improved.

Also, don't let negative people on the forums influence you if you're already enjoying the game. There are a lot of people with unrealistic expectations of how the game should be now that we've reached what is likely the peak of job complexity. People will continue to expect jobs to become more and more complex every expansion, and that is just not likely to happen from now on. It's a business after all, and making jobs too complex pushes away a huge amount of people.

Expect to see a lot of pruning and a lot of button overlap with the new action change feature.

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Originally Posted by Reginald_Cain

This post isn't to excuse Square Enix's neglect but to help people find a silver lining in things outside our immediate control. Don't let the forums make you sad but instead have a good laugh at the devs with your fellow adventurers!

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Not sure about you, but schadenfreude is not exactly a good reason for many to pay a subscription service and be happy. We used to have much more interesting job classes, all of that gameplay has been eroded away. This is nothing to smile about. If you can sure, but for others who liked pushing buttons, the situation is just sad to the point of constant head-shaking.

You’re about 7 years too late with this lol.

They nuked any chance of good will from me when it became apparent what direction they were going in Stormblood. Shadowbringers job changes was just them kicking the community in their collective balls.

Now? The devs are kicking our cold, dead corpses gleefully with the job changes they’ve been making this expansion. You’re right though, there is no point in complaining…because it’s already far, far, far too late for that lol

I've accepted since long that what got me into the game back in HW has been lost past SB and onward, because they changed the game into something else entirely. As such it's not dumb job changes for me. It goes way beyond that. It's how they give the middle finger to all the players that made this game what it is in the past by deciding at some point that they don't want us anymore if we can't be able to adapt and like their new macdonaldized version of an MMO.

For those of you that enjoy what you're being served overall, all I can say, treasure it.

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Originally Posted by Connor

You’re about 7 years too late with this lol.

They nuked any chance of good will from me when it became apparent what direction they were going in Stormblood. Shadowbringers job changes was just them kicking the community in their collective balls.

Now? The devs are kicking our cold, dead corpses gleefully with the job changes they’ve been making this expansion. You’re right though, there is no point in complaining…because it’s already far, far, far too late for that lol

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Yet, I can see from your profile you are level 100. So, you (like many!) are ok with being "kicked in the balls." You are just resigned to the state the game is. Maybe I am too. And maybe subconsciously, I like the game anyway, even with all of its faults and it being overly simplified, etc etc.

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Originally Posted by dspguy

Yet, I can see from your profile you are level 100. So, you (like many!) are ok with being "kicked in the balls." You are just resigned to the state the game is. Maybe I am too. And maybe subconsciously, I like the game anyway, even with all of its faults and it being overly simplified, etc etc.

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This forum smh.
Haven't played something until the end? "you can't criticize it cause you haven't actually played it."
Have played something until the end? "you are okay with the way things are because you actually played it."

In order to criticize something, it helps having experienced it. Also, enjoyment is not binary. Doing something and realizing that thing is not as fun as it used to be is something that everyone experiences, one way or the other.
Most people posting on the forums do like the game - if they did not, they would not care enough to put their opinions out. Liking the game and still criticizing it is entirely normal.

Tbh i really dont care much about Job Changes even if everything would be a 1 button job, if the fights are good and difficulity idc about the class, i prefer harder fights then harder classes

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Originally Posted by AvoSturmfaust

Tbh i really dont care much about Job Changes even if everything would be a 1 button job, if the fights are good and difficulity idc about the class, i prefer harder fights then harder classes

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Can't say that I agree with that stance - personally, I'd say fun classes should be a higher priority fights.
If the class you play is engaging, that can carry every fight, even those that may not be entirely to your liking.
The other way around, you end up with an awful experience when you play content where fights have nothing going for them, like current Expert Dungeons.

That being said - why can it not be both? Engaging fights and jobs? It should not need to be an "or", it should be an "and".

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Originally Posted by AvoSturmfaust

Tbh i really dont care much about Job Changes even if everything would be a 1 button job, if the fights are good and difficulity idc about the class, i prefer harder fights then harder classes

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The main issue with making jobs simpler with the current content design in mind is that, if you're not doing current content, you're left with both a boring job and a boring fight. Since the game has a roulette system, a lvl sync system, and an incredibly high ilvl sync system, unless you actively avoid engaging with your dailies, chances are that'll happen a lot.

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Originally Posted by SomeGuy22

The main issue with making jobs simpler with the current content design in mind is that, if you're not doing current content, you're left with both a boring job and a boring fight. Since the game has a roulette system, a lvl sync system, and an incredibly high ilvl sync system, unless you actively avoid engaging with your dailies, chances are that'll happen a lot.

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Exactly. It's hard to not let dumb job changes ruin the game for me when my job is the window I see most of the game through. If the jobs are all totally braindead I'm only having fun the small percentage of the time I'm in a very difficult fight. If the jobs require thought and skill then I'm having fun 100% of the time since no matter what I'm doing I'm still mentally engaged with playing my job correctly.

If you're entertained by pressing movement keys and pressing 1-2-3 in fixed patterns while moving through DDR mechanics, then it's probably gonna be fine if those mechanics are what you like about the game.
If you're not though... good luck with that.

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Originally Posted by Valence

If you're entertained by pressing movement keys and pressing 1-2-3 in fixed patterns while moving through DDR mechanics, then it's probably gonna be fine if those mechanics are what you like about the game.
If you're not though... good luck with that.

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Are you primarily doing the tam-tara deepcroft? Or do you have your rotation automated with third party tools? Because literally no job is 1-2-3 in fixed patterns rofl.

If you're going to criticize the game design, please just be less dishonest. It's not serving your argument at all to tell lies.

Look at elden ring, the combat inputs are literally 3 buttons (light, heavy, dodge) yet the boss fights are extremely engaging and the game is way more successful than any mmo ever will be. People who want job design to be the primary focus of difficulty literally argue for training dummy bosses. The jobs do require thought and skill, they are just tuned at a level where the boss fights can actually be interesting instead of a joke like they had been for the majority of the game's life.

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Originally Posted by AvoSturmfaust

Tbh i really dont care much about Job Changes even if everything would be a 1 button job, if the fights are good and difficulity idc about the class, i prefer harder fights then harder classes

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The game tries to encourage us to replay all levels of content even if you're at the level cap via roulettes, and naturally they can't make every piece of content difficult. Having the option to challenge ourselves with all the different jobs and their quirks was, to me at least, a good way to enjoy repeating content through dailies, weeklies and farming.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

Look at elden ring, the combat inputs are literally 3 buttons (light, heavy, dodge) yet the boss fights are extremely engaging and the game is way more successful than any mmo ever will be. People who want job design to be the primary focus of difficulty literally argue for training dummy bosses. The jobs do require thought and skill, they are just tuned at a level where the boss fights can actually be interesting instead of a joke like they had been for the majority of the game's life.

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From games' engagement also comes from the amount of customization you can do to change up your experience. It's the layers of complexity working together that makes them as fun as they are. XIV thinks they've got the layers to work together, but they're mostly just sanding it down to just one.

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Originally Posted by Reginald_Cain

Don't let dumb job changes ruin the game for you.

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... because don't worry, they'll ruin the game with or without you! Ha!

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Originally Posted by Azurarok

From games' engagement also comes from the amount of customization you can do to change up your experience. It's the layers of complexity working together that makes them as fun as they are. XIV thinks they've got the layers to work together, but they're mostly just sanding it down to just one.

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Cold take, but this game has way more customization in actual playstyle than from software games with the jobs and healer/tank/dps roles. It's very disingenuous to act like they could ever "sand it down to just one".

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

Cold take, but this game has way more customization in actual playstyle than from software games with the jobs and healer/tank/dps roles. It's very disingenuous to act like they could ever "sand it down to just one".

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Psst - A cold take is usually the opposite of a hot one, meaning that a cold take is generally a well accepted opinion. This wasn't a cold take. To say that the rigid rotation style of gameplay, near zero gearing choices, cookie cutter tank and healer designs, is "customization," is just blatantly wrong. Hilariously so.

You can't say the game let's you customize when there are no options to do so besides:

Equip a weapon for a new job
And
You may either play correctly and well, or poorly. PLAYSTYLE CHOICES!

No. This game doesn't offer any form of playstyle choice outside of tank/healer CD management, and micro optimizations that only SOME of the jobs have.

Cold take? No. Unhinged take.

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Originally Posted by IOwn92FCHouses

Psst - A cold take is usually the opposite of a hot one, meaning that a cold take is generally a well accepted opinion. This wasn't a cold take. To say that the rigid rotation style of gameplay, near zero gearing choices, cookie cutter tank and healer designs, is "customization," is just blatantly wrong. Hilariously so.

You can't say the game let's you customize when there are no options to do so besides:

Equip a weapon for a new job
And
You may either play correctly and well, or poorly. PLAYSTYLE CHOICES!

No. This game doesn't offer any form of playstyle choice outside of tank/healer CD management, and micro optimizations that only SOME of the jobs have.

Cold take? No. Unhinged take.

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Yeah no, you clearly don't play from software games very much if you think they have more diverse playstyles than this game.

Also, the customization of the experience in this game is what job you pick as well as the type of content you engage in. Which is way more variance than from software games. There are 21 unique jobs and they all play extremely differently. From software games have more builds, but less difference between the builds and only really one role. At the end of the day no matter your build in those games, you are doing light attack, heavy attack, dodge roll. Timing changes, spacing changes, that's about it.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

Yeah no, you clearly don't play from software games very much if you think they have more diverse playstyles than this game.

Also, the customization of the experience in this game is what job you pick. There are 21 unique jobs and they all play extremely differently. From software games have more builds, but less difference between the builds and only really one role. At the end of the day no matter your build in those games, you are doing light attack, heavy attack, dodge roll. Timing changes, spacing changes, that's about it.

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What a wild thing to say. I literally built an Elden Ring character who would shoot spells at themselves so that they could be reflected back at the enemy as their primary way of ealing damage. I had a different character who's primary strategy was to apply as many DoTs as possible and run away.

FFXIV on the other hand has literally zero customization. I'm not saying it necessarily needs it, but to argue otherwise is braindead. It has a right way to play, and anything outside of that is the wrong way to play.

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Originally Posted by jonimated

What a wild thing to say. I literally built an Elden Ring character who would shoot spells at themselves so that they could be reflected back at the enemy as their primary way of ealing damage.

FFXIV on the other hand has literally zero customization. I'm not saying it necessarily needs it, but to argue otherwise is braindead. It has a right way to play, and anything outside of that is the wrong way to play.

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Yeah honestly I don't see that as any different than pressing R1 while using a katana.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

Yeah honestly I don't see that as any different than pressing R1 while using a katana.

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Neither build equipped a melee weapon? I don't know what to tell you. I guess you lack imagination?

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Originally Posted by jonimated

Neither build equipped a melee weapon? I don't know what to tell you. I guess you lack imagination?

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I mean it's all the same, the boss comes at you, you evade or block or parry, you respond with a suitable attack for the window.

I'm also just doing what you are doing with ffxiv in saying "there is only one way to play"

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

I mean it's all the same, the boss comes at you, you evade or block or parry, you respond with a suitable attack for the window.

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This is like saying all games on a console have only one way to play because they all use the same controller. In fact, since it's all computer code, you could argue that filling out an Excel spreadsheet is the same as playing any video game. Hell, doing anything is the same as doing anything else, because it's all just interactions between particles and energy fields.

Pointless reductionist arguments only serve to make it look like you aren't taking people seriously.

Then again, comparing XIV and Elden Ring at all is like comparing apples and squirrels.

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Originally Posted by NegativeS

This is like saying all games on a console have only one way to play because they all use the same controller. In fact, since it's all computer code, you could argue that filling out an Excel spreadsheet is the same as playing any video game. Hell, doing anything is the same as doing anything else, because it's all just interactions between particles and energy fields.

Pointless reductionist arguments only serve to make it look like you aren't taking people seriously.

Then again, comparing XIV and Elden Ring at all is like comparing apples and squirrels.

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There's just far less variety in playstyle and gameplay in from software games compared to this game. That's all I am asserting.

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Originally Posted by NegativeS

This is like saying all games on a console have only one way to play because they all use the same controller. In fact, since it's all computer code, you could argue that filling out an Excel spreadsheet is the same as playing any video game. Hell, doing anything is the same as doing anything else, because it's all just interactions between particles and energy fields.

Pointless reductionist arguments only serve to make it look like you aren't taking people seriously.

Then again, comparing XIV and Elden Ring at all is like comparing apples and squirrels.

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Honestly it's not even worth it, and I shouldn't have even replied to them to begin with. They've been trolling through these forums for weeks now disagreeing with literally anything and everything anyone says. Contrarian for attention is all it is. I'm fairly certain they retain an active subscription only to post on the forums and they don't actually play the game.

At this point they are just stringing words that they know together into loose excuses for sentences. Making up nonsense with no receipts.

You and everyone else here should just do what I should have done to begin with. Stick them on ignore and never look back. Don't feed the trolls is a great policy here.

i think a lot of people on this forum (and others ones) mix up complex and complicated.
Having 50 shortcuts to use is not complex but complicated.... And this should be avoided at all cost.

Now, you can get complex gameplay with only 8 shorcuts (GW1 did it 20 years ago). It's just about how skills interact with each other, the synergy....

A very good exemple is Chess : very few rules, set piece movement that can be easyly and quickly learned.... yet the game as a lot of depth and complexity and is still played a lot after many centuries of existence.

So, clearly, we don't need jobs with a 50 shortcuts rotation to have fun.... Those who like thoses type of gameplay, like complicated things, not complex one.
And simple yet complex things are far better in the long run than overly complicated things. It was proven numerous time in all kind of department (not only video game)

Exactly. Or as I like to call it, complexity should be low (10 or less buttons), while depth should be high (lots of thought needed and/or potential for personal expression and/or reflexes needed). GW1 or GW2 showed how to do it, other devs just never dare go very minimalist, which is a shame, as with so many things you're not done designing your classes when you cannot add things any more, but when you can't take anything away any more.

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Originally Posted by Lorika

i think a lot of people on this forum (and others ones) mix up complex and complicated.
Having 50 shortcuts to use is not complex but complicated.... And this should be avoided at all cost.

Now, you can get complex gameplay with only 8 shorcuts (GW1 did it 20 years ago). It's just about how skills interact with each other, the synergy....

A very good exemple is Chess : very few rules, set piece movement that can be easily and quickly learned.... yet the game as a lot of depth and complexity and is still played a lot after many centuries of existence.

So, clearly, we don't need jobs with a 50 shortcuts rotation to have fun.... Those who like thoses type of gameplay, like complicated things, not complex one.
And simple yet complex things are far better in the long run than overly complicated things. It was proven numerous time in all kind of department (not only video game)

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This is absolutely true. Many games have shown the ability to add complexity without the need for multiple hotbars worth of buttons to press. Some of my favourite games use 5-8 buttons max, but that's also because those games have added layers of meta-gameplay to work around.

The current issue is SE has shown they either aren't capable, or aren't will to do that. When they remove buttons and mechanics they don't add anything else in it's place. If SE could be trusted to add some real engaging gameplay to the job kits I would be all for reducing button bloat and amalgamating combos. As of right now though "pressing lots of buttons" is really all the jobs have going for them, and it really shows when they remove GCDs, oGCDs, and mechanics from kits (see Dragoon and Viper changes).

I almost think they should just never listen to people who have been playing this game long term. Totally out of touch with the reality of execution of job abilities.

I wasn't expecting this many responses. Guess what i said read like "Deal with it. The job balance is optional. auto crossbow is fine." because i didn't try hard enough to make it sound like there's still long standing issues but I'm happy the game has remained in a playable state for me for these last few years. Sorry for any ruffled feathers, but in my experience in live service games, and this one in particular game balance is often trumped by fun. Look at league of legends or warframe. Those games have some of the most egregius examples of powercreep and neglect of certain classes/characters I've experienced, but every character remained playable. I understand frustrations for people wanting to play black mage, machinist, summoner, healers, dark knight and dragoon. You guys lost a lot of features we both loved like nastrond, blood weapon boosting skill speed, gcd abyssal drain, bishop auto turret in pve, bane for scholar and more. Pictomancer is obviously cracked but It's also one of the most satisfying jobs in the game and people are currently used to playing it at current power level. I understand their approach to buff all instead of nerfing but I think they're overly conservative with buffs for all dps roles. One positive to picto being this strong is double caster is a more realistic option for groups. Since Shadowbringers came out, it hasn't been viable to run double phys ranged and double caster was viable but not as reliable as double melee. I'd prefer black mage to be stronger and machinist be more in line with samurai. They're about as easy to play.

My main (DRK) lost its identity in Shadowbringers. My favorite healer (SCH) lost all but one of its DoTs. My favorite DPS (SMN) was literally removed from the game and replaced with a different job. Combat is how 90% of the game is experienced. It is impossible for job changes to not ruin the game when some of them are this drastic and they are nearly always for the worse.

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Originally Posted by Reginald_Cain

I wasn't expecting this many responses. Guess what i said read like "Deal with it. The job balance is optional. auto crossbow is fine." because i didn't try hard enough to make it sound like there's still long standing issues but I'm happy the game has remained in a playable state for me for these last few years. Sorry for any ruffled feathers, but in my experience in live service games, and this one in particular game balance is often trumped by fun. Look at league of legends or warframe. Those games have some of the most egregius examples of powercreep and neglect of certain classes/characters I've experienced, but every character remained playable. I understand frustrations for people wanting to play black mage, machinist, summoner, healers, dark knight and dragoon. You guys lost a lot of features we both loved like nastrond, blood weapon boosting skill speed, gcd abyssal drain, bishop auto turret in pve, bane for scholar and more. Pictomancer is obviously cracked but It's also one of the most satisfying jobs in the game and people are currently used to playing it at current power level. I understand their approach to buff all instead of nerfing but I think they're overly conservative with buffs for all dps roles. One positive to picto being this strong is double caster is a more realistic option for groups. Since Shadowbringers came out, it hasn't been viable to run double phys ranged and double caster was viable but not as reliable as double melee. I'd prefer black mage to be stronger and machinist be more in line with samurai. They're about as easy to play.

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The actual problem is that game balance actually trumps fun in this game, because everything has to adhere strictly to a script, and remove every form of skill expression or self expression by systematically deleting agency and freedom to the favor of pure mechanical/memory regurgitation with little thought behind, thus sucking half the fun out of it, and only leaving room for a sanitized environment where the smallest balance issue suddenly occupies all the room.