I gotta get this out of my system or imma lose my mind

it doesnt matter that your LV 100 in everything.
it doesnt matter that you have the mentor role
if you go out of your way to force bigger pulls just cause your impatient you are annoying

if you want wall pulls then either just ask lie a decent person or be tank yourself

---

on a completely unrelated and more positive note, finished EW two days ago! soo good and now i wait for the third peep of my group to catch up so we can all go into DT together!

This sounds like a you problem, my guy. If you can't do full pulls in current dungeons that are basically a hallway of two different packs - the bare minimum of being a tank, then you're the one who shouldn't be tanking. Duty Support exists for people like you who need to take the full 90 minutes in the dungeon when it shouldn't even take 15 minutes.

i aint trying ta take 90 mins, im trying to just enjoy leveling my DRK and not rush through to a endpoint. it aint like im taking one pull at a time if i can im doin at least two or three waves of baddies at a time but suddenly having the 5 other enemies down the hall get dragged in cause a testy PCT cant slow down and making me scramble around big ah AOEs that i wanted to deal with when i didnt have 15 other mobs biting at me aint enjoyable.

i dont play XIV to run through as fast as possible. im just tryin ta enjoy the game how id like

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ToxieDrop

i dont play XIV to run through as fast as possible. im just tryin ta enjoy the game how id like

---

What if the other 3 want to go as fast as possible? Why should your need to go slower trump the other 3 players to want to go faster? The default here is to pull wall to wall. It not only makes it more interesting as a tank, but more interesting as a healer and DPS as well.

Want to go slower, use trusts, or, ask the party if it is ok.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ToxieDrop

i aint trying ta take 90 mins, im trying to just enjoy leveling my DRK and not rush through to a endpoint.

---

So it's cool that I enjoy leveling my ninja by just doing auto attacks because I think they look cool, maybe a mudra here and there for fun? I'm not in any rush anyway.

The standard is indeed wall to wall, and it's so easy even with DRK these days thanks to the great patches finally coming around and giving them some love, that it can be done really early on.
Do not encourage mediocrity, be better. Nobody needs to ask for a wall to wall, it just happens. If you want party members who won't complain, bring trusts or grab 3 friends who don't mind slow pulls.

Maybe you should play with trusts or squadrons if you want to go at your own pace. You're not the main character just because you're the tank, there's 3 other people in the dungeon with you, and it's not like trash mobs in dungeon are difficult to begin with.

The play standard is wall to wall pulls unless you or your healer literally cannot handle it (undergeared or other legitimate things holding you back - you wanting to relax isn't it).

Since you are the one complaining about the standard, it is *your* responsibility to apologize in advance that you may be inexperienced still and would like to pull for less until you are more confident.

Sincerely - a fellow tank.

If you are in a level cap dungeon (50, 60, etc), your ilvl will almost always outweigh the dungeon itself and it is an insult to both yourself and your party to not pull everything you can.
Leveling dungeons, at least at the lower end can be a bit spicier. But even them at the later end of things when you have most of your kit will be full pullable with ease.

It's a team game whether you like it or not. If you want to relax play with npcs or a likeminded premade.

I personally have met a "you pull you tank" tank before when I was leveling a dps. Healer was onboard but me pulling caused the tank to ragequit along with the other dps that was with him (in tam tara NORMAL, i.e. a dungeon that doesn't matter). Don't grief people by not doing the role you signed up for.

People these days have too fragile of an ego. If you have an issue you could ask them, otherwise if they say no to your request you can put up with it or leave. I'm just being blunt here.

Yeah I just let people who grief die on PLD and WAR, then do my pulls as normal. I do wall-to-wall pulls already, if I hold back 1 GCD it's because I had not actually hit the entire group. I do this for a reason. All they do is make it slower by dragging mobs away from me that then take longer to pick up due to the slow GCD compared to other games + an extra GCD to take things off them. It's different if they intentionally bring mobs, but this happens less often than you think, most of the time they just run into a pack, decide "here" is a good place to stand, then AoE and wonder why the tank is elsewhere picking up the 3 other mobs they didn't collect that then ran off to the healer, and now the tank used their extra gapcloser, cannot gapclose to the melee who ran in, and now has to walk over. Annoying as hell when people do that without at least talking about it first so the tank knows to expect it and can plan ability CDs around it so the pulls never have to slow down because AoEs only hit some of the mobs instead of all of them.

I usually explain it first though. Granted, with sprout-healers I always ask then whether they want wall-to-wall or single pack, and I respect their choice. And I hope DPS in groups can respect that choice, too. Everyone was a sprout once.

If someone get rage-y after that, salt-stocks-are-on-the-rise macro the first time, vote kick the second.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Carighan

Yeah I just let those people die on PLD and WAR, then do my pulls as normal (since I can easily survive them anyways). I do wall-to-wall pulls, if I hold back 1 GCD it's because I had not actually hit the entire group. I do this for a reason.

I usually explain it first though. Granted, with sprout-healers I always ask then whether they want wall-to-wall or single pack, and I respect their choice.

If someone get rage-y after that, salt-stocks-are-on-the-rise macro the first time, vote kick the second.

---

Imagine admitting to breaking the ToS on the official forums, lmao

what exactly breaks the ToS there ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dante131

what exactly breaks the ToS there ?

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Intentionally allowing MPK because the tank doesn't want to do their job. If the other jobs pull ahead of you, either you're far too slow, or there's professionals at work using Arm's Length to save you a cooldown, or save you a use of your ranged gcd so you can go ahead and AoE right away.

A good tank pulls the mobs regardless of who does it first, a sad tank has the "you pull you tank" mentality. Run goes smoother for everyone if everyone does their job so as the tank, grab mobs and pull wall to wall. Thanks~.

This thread topic comes up a fair bit, so here's where it fits in the standard tanking skill progression chart:

https://i.imgur.com/Qjftwasl.jpeg

The journey of a thousand yalms begins with a single step.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MikoRemi

Intentionally allowing MPK because the tank doesn't want to do their job

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MPK? What is that?

Also you might have misunderstood my post, I meant that I kick them if they are both belligerent and try to grief the party. Which has, sadly (given FFXIV's usual reputation), become a significant issue since Dawntrail. Marked shift in attitude from many dungeon runners, newcomers who ask to do smaller pulls get yelled at and laughed and if you try to tell the offending person to calm it, they just fly completely off the rails. And if they're already doing physical griefing like tagging mobs then not (which is intentional after all) bringing them to where the tank collected all the other 10 mobs, then honestly... it's time for them to calm down outside the dungeon maybe? I mean at that point what do you want to do? If you accept that behavior, it just proliferates, and you got one less newbie healer because they play something else instead.

(Though the same holds true when you're the healer and the tank is not confident in doing wall-to-wall or large mass pulls, of course)

(edit)
Ah I found what MPK means, yeah that's what I mean, if someone tries to grief the group by bringing in extra mobs even after explanation, it's time for them to step outside the dungeon maybe? Like I said above I can easily survive that so I don't mind if they kill themselves bringing those mobs, but in particular with a sprout healer who asks for careful pulls it's just super not okay to then fly off the rails and just bring more and more mobs to the tank. Again I can survive that, but it's not the point, if the healer asked and nobody said something against it and hence silently agreed with them, DBAA later.

Actually small pulls are bad from a mitigation standpoint, especially at 90-100 range. I know some people like to take it slow and enjoy the sights but that is why I highly recommend to do a first playthrough of a dungeon with trusts first because those are designed around both small and large pulls. You have to respect people's time and effort and small pulls do not do that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Carighan

Ah I found what MPK means, yeah that's what I mean, if someone tries to grief the group by bringing in extra mobs even after explanation, it's time for them to step outside the dungeon maybe? Like I said above I can easily survive that so I don't mind if they kill themselves bringing those mobs, but in particular with a sprout healer who asks for careful pulls it's just super not okay to then fly off the rails and just bring more and more mobs to the tank.

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Actually, the poster above is trying to say that you are the one committing MPK by letting other players die, who pull ahead of you. However, as a DPS main, I personally agree with your perspective and I think the ToS is on your side.

SE’s list of Prohibited Activities defines MPK as:
"◆Monster Player Kill (MPK)
"MPK" is an act of sending a monster towards another person so that they are knocked out or obstructing another person's gameplay."

Source:
https://support.na.square-enix.com/f...9;s%20gameplay.

So per ToS, if someone is KO’d or otherwise has their gameplay obstructed because a player pulled mobs (“sending a monster towards another person”) before other players are ready (ie tank and/or healer) that player is the one guilty of MPK not the tank for not pulling mobs off them.

We can argue if it’s the right/good thing to do or not, but taking the attitude of “you pull, you tank and if you die that’s on you” is not against ToS.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Derio

Actually small pulls are bad from a mitigation standpoint, especially at 90-100 range. I know some people like to take it slow and enjoy the sights but that is why I highly recommend to do a first playthrough of a dungeon with trusts first because those are designed around both small and large pulls. You have to respect people's time and effort and small pulls do not do that.

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Look i know and see this argument i pref fast pulls aswell but i think we need some middlepoint. We are on crossroads here ( hehe thinking i am funny for using the patch name ... god i need another hobby ) if you set fix that big w2w pulls are the way the game is played by rule like tos or se officially state this is the way the game have to be played then you will encounter an even larger drop in the tank role, because people who wants it to be slow and chill will just not play it. in the first thinking it might be a win for you until the queue time gets so high that you will wait more then 10 minutes.

On the other half you can turn it around and tell everyone too chill the pulls and play slow, which will offend the other side. What we need is to get a middlepoint on which all can agree instead of throwing a tendrum on both sides. Its not okay just to go slow because you want to annoy other, BUT it is okay beeing slower if you are not confidant period and no level is not an idicator for it. You can level a job without playing it in this game so i would not assume everyone knows what they are doing + not everyone is on the same level. Its okay to ask them too be faster or give tips its not okay to force them. I dont even think it have something too do with people are not respecting your time.

Basicly its 2 worlds collapse together and none wants to reach out a hand which is sad since this community been so much better with this topic earlier.

So Solutions what could it be?

- be the tank yourselve ( if you are the tank you can decide atleast the how fast and how much too pull thing )
- other dungeon design
- dungeon difficulty level
- toggle for fast and slow run while joining the df
- get more confidence as a tank
- SPEAK AND LISTEN

the last point is actually a middle point in my point of view.

to make it clear here i have an example of a dungeon run i had lately.

Joined as GNB for leveling and got the lvl 61 dungeon. On the ship i saw that the WHM was spamming cure 2. i saw his sprout symbol and was thinking okay maybe new or not confidant, so i asked if i should slow down with pulling. Got ignored which i admit got me a little angry. "maybe console player " since most of the time consoly players dont chat in my expierience. So i thought i will not pull the whole wall because i didnt trust the healer and me to this point got not enough self heal. What happened next ? The BLM probably thought "TaNk DoNt ReSpEcT mY tImE" and pulled the next grps. surprise healer was not healing him got stressed out BLM died. After beeing close 2 death i recognized healer was accidently ( i hope ) healing themselve for whatever reason maybe they tryed to heal the BLM but since he was down system targets the character. So what happens i die after me the dancer and healer.

yes we just wiped on the first pull because someone was not reading the chat and had to Pull the next grp. Neccessary ? no i had a reason. Thats all i am saying most of the time people have a reason for a slow playstyle even if the reason is comfort. Just talk and listen. If i trust my healer i have 0 problems to sprint through the dungeon and kill everything.

on the flipside if a player pull one grp then go afk for 2 minutes pull the next and goes afk again then yes its litterally not respecting time unless theres a comment on the chat.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ToxieDrop

i aint trying ta take 90 mins, im trying to just enjoy leveling my DRK and not rush through to a endpoint. it aint like im taking one pull at a time if i can im doin at least two or three waves of baddies at a time but suddenly having the 5 other enemies down the hall get dragged in cause a testy PCT cant slow down and making me scramble around big ah AOEs that i wanted to deal with when i didnt have 15 other mobs biting at me aint enjoyable.

i dont play XIV to run through as fast as possible. im just tryin ta enjoy the game how id like

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bad news dude... that's the expectation for running stuff using duty finder/roulettes, it's how the entire community has been doing it for 15 years now... if YOU want to pull slower than it's on YOU to say something, otherwise EVERYONE ELSE is going to ASSUME THE NORM IS IN PLAY AND WALL TO WALL, not ONE single person is going to go in expecting single pack pulls, it IS *EXPECTED* to pull *EVERYTHING* you can

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mesarthim

It's a team game whether you like it or not. If you want to relax play with npcs or a likeminded premade.

I personally have met a "you pull you tank" tank before when I was leveling a dps. Healer was onboard but me pulling caused the tank to ragequit along with the other dps that was with him (in tam tara NORMAL, i.e. a dungeon that doesn't matter). Don't grief people by not doing the role you signed up for.

People these days have too fragile of an ego. If you have an issue you could ask them, otherwise if they say no to your request you can put up with it or leave. I'm just being blunt here.

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seriously the egos on this game, and the CATERING TO THOSE EGOS BY SQUARE, with their disgusting updated TOS that SPECIFICALLY STATES YOU CANNOT ASK A TANK TO PUT STANCE UP OR A HEALER TO HEAL WHEN THEY QUED FOR THAT ROLE(for real, look up the prohibited behavior updated version they made in EW, it's... NOT conducive to an MMO), are UNREAL.

since people are lazy

Expressions that unilaterally reject another person's opinion
・Expressions that compel a playing style
Key Points
It is prohibited to force personal views or disregard the opinions of others. If a report has been filed and the prohibited activity is confirmed, a penalty will be issued.

It is prohibited to make statements such as:
"There's no way we can clear this with [suggestion]." (AKA WE CANT CLEAR UNLESS YOU PUT TANK STANCE UP, AKA WE CANT CLEAR UNLESS YOU HEAL)
"Big pulls are normal here, so do it!" (AKA i don't care if it's the community norm for 15 years, FEEFEES ARE MORE IMPORTANT WAHHHHH!)
"I don't care what you think, just follow my instructions."
"I'm not asking for your opinion." (AKA yeah even though the mechanics REQUIRE it be resolved this way... DO WHAT YOU WANT FRIENDO!!!!!)

Please note that Square Enix may issue a penalty in its discretion even if a report has not been filed but the act was found being conducted in public areas such as Say and Shout, search comments, Party Finder, and online video or streaming services.

■ Point 1
Respecting the opinions of others and expressing your own opinions in the form of a "suggestion" does not constitute a violation.

For example, it is not a violation to suggest one's own opinion/policy or to present a counterproposal to an opinion, as shown in the following "Example of a non-violation." However, in the "Example of a violation,” you are trying to impose your play style on others by unilaterally excluding their opinions without respecting theirs, which is considered a violation.

Example 1
Example of a violation:
"We can only beat [duty/content] by using [something]. You can't do it any other way, so stop doing that!" (AKA we LITERALLY need you to heal or we can't clear!)
Example of a non-violation:
"I think [duty/content] will go more smoothly if we do [something], so I want to try doing it this way, is that okay with everyone?"

Example 2
Example of a violation:
(In response to an opinion) "Your idea is ridiculous, what are you talking about!?."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ToxieDrop

i aint trying ta take 90 mins, im trying to just enjoy leveling my DRK and not rush through to a endpoint. it aint like im taking one pull at a time if i can im doin at least two or three waves of baddies at a time but suddenly having the 5 other enemies down the hall get dragged in cause a testy PCT cant slow down and making me scramble around big ah AOEs that i wanted to deal with when i didnt have 15 other mobs biting at me aint enjoyable.

i dont play XIV to run through as fast as possible. im just tryin ta enjoy the game how id like

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You could also try mentioning in chat after someone's actions trigger you: "Hey guys, I'm new to tanking on [JOB_HERE], I'm uncomfortable with larger pulls; please be patient with me while I'm learning"

99.9% of the time you will be met with friendly understanding and patience. Sometimes you might encounter a sociopath but that's just life.

You'd be surprised how far some earnest humility will take you when you can admit "Hey I'm not comfortable with this because I'm new/not great/bad/casual."

Yep, that was kinda my point earlier, too. If I'm tanking and back then myself or nowadays a newbie healer asks to take it slow, and they communicate that, and everyone seemingly agrees and then a DPS just runs off and tries to grief by bringing mobs to the group they didn't pull intentionally, that's just not okay. Show some consideration for the group and new players in particular.

Imagine going through the entire game, from A Realm Reborn to Dawntrail, probably spending more than 100 hours in the game, if not 200, and you STILL can't pull wall to wall even though they keep making the game easier and easier since Stormblood.
Oh come on. If you don't want to pull wall to wall, might as well play with bots. If you do Expert roulettes, you are EXPECTED to do wall to wall pulls. Don't cry because people won't bend themselves to cater you.

The only reasons not to Wall to Wall pull is:

A: You're absolute trash at your role.
B: People other than you are absolute trash at their role(s).
C: You're a badly geared tank in ARR content.

Otherwise you're just holding your party hostage making content take twice as long as necessary because you want to sit back and do a half ass rotation while soaking up all the AoE's, so you can be watching youtube on your second monitor.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yukimin

Imagine going through the entire game, from A Realm Reborn to Dawntrail, probably spending more than 100 hours in the game, if not 200, and you STILL can't pull wall to wall even though they keep making the game easier and easier since Stormblood.
Oh come on. If you don't want to pull wall to wall, might as well play with bots. If you do Expert roulettes, you are EXPECTED to do wall to wall pulls. Don't cry because people won't bend themselves to cater you.

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Yeah but not the point. I still prioritize the social nature of an MMORPG over "but you ought to!". It's about playing together with other people after all. Hence if the group as a group decide we're doing single group pulls and I'm not in a hurry, sure I'll go along with it. It's a group effort after all, no need to be aggressive to people for openly talking about (game-)insecurities.

Im glad op not on my data center I dont mind wall to wall. Yet if your struggling keyword struggling..... but your lvl 100<- and you still dont know how to tank or heal? Big pulls are great It makes runs faster, keeps the fights from being boring.

SIDE NOTE: YOUR LEVEL 100 PLEASE ACT LIKE IT OP. STOP BEING SUCH A BABY AND JUST LEARN TO PLAY THE GAME.

Rant over XD

https://i.imgur.com/UD72npA.jpeg

i have nothing more to say

I don't know... by the time your at DT I think tanks should know how to pull at least two groups of enemies together. Usually most dungeons will even wall you off at two groups at a time.

Cycling mits is very simple just make sure to cycle 1-2 defensive cooldowns (2 weak ones or 1 strong one usually does the trick, you can use more but the goal is to know how much you can use without leaving yourself with nothing for next pull). and use make use of invuls like hallowed ground, bolide is also really good, even living dead and Holm gang works if your healer knows how they work and when your going to use them.

If your playing most tanks at a high enough level you will barely even need a healer (even dark knight), you shouldn't be worried about pulls as a tank a good habbit is to always pull as much as you can (maybe not in ARR), If that doesn't work out then you can always scale down on the pull. While DPS/healer pulling can be annoying at times it's still your job as a tank to grab those mobs, I will say if you are a DPS/healer pulling make sure its easy for the tank to regrab those mobs don't run away from the tank, make sure to stand next to the tank.

Going at a slow pace and wanting to take your time is what Trusts & Duty Support are for, or even grouping with 3 other friends.

Just to play devil's advocate... level 100 isn't an actual accomplishment in this game. Not when there are a plethora of ways to earn experience without actually learning your job or facing any real difficulties. So saying "you should know this by now since you are level 100" is a poor argument.

If you are level 100, you should know better :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dspguy

Just to play devil's advocate... level 100 isn't an actual accomplishment in this game. Not when there are a plethora of ways to earn experience without actually learning your job or facing any real difficulties. So saying "you should know this by now since you are level 100" is a poor argument.

If you are level 100, you should know better :)

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No, it absolutely is a valid argument.

Leveling in such a way that someone never gains experience with that job is a conscious choice, so it also falls on them to learn how to actually play elsewhere, be that watching guides or practicing on a training dummy.

The same applies to the people who buy level skips, it's not my job to adjust to you not knowing where your tank stance is or what your cooldowns do 90 levels into the game just because you couldn't be bothered.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Leveling in such a way that someone never gains experience with that job is a conscious choice, so it also falls on them to learn how to actually play elsewhere, be that watching guides or practicing on a training dummy.

The same applies to the people who buy level skips, it's not my job to adjust to you not knowing where your tank stance is or what your cooldowns do 90 levels into the game just because you couldn't be bothered.

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I'd actually go a step further, tbh. If someone levels normally, enjoys their ultralight gameplay, and just doesn't realize - maybe they're just not used to many video games and in particular not MMORPGs? - that there is more to the job than just pressing one button and walking from mob to mob, I'm happy to explain. I'm happy to take a lot of time to let them adapt, explain, practice, etc. We were all newbies once, and I'm always delighted when video games such as MMORPGs appeal to absolutely-non-gamer players. After all, about 25 years ago I played EQ1 with my parents also playing, and that was a really cool experience to see them play that game (my dad was a Warrior, my mum a Cleric, me an Enchantress, so we always had the group basics down :D ). And as long as everyone is polite and explains ahead of time and all, I'll take however much time it needs, and I might try to establish some sort of middle-ground if someone else in the group has less time too. I wouldn't want a genuinely knew player who is overwhelmed but also delighted to not try this any more and just play the game as a pseudo-single-player until they wander off due to 2-3 bad experiences. Depends on who they are socially of course, but I met so many so nice people in this game, I would rather pay it forward, even in rather extreme cases such as a lvl100 having virtually no experience with their character. It just... happens. Quite frequently, actually! And now out of ill will at all, the game is that bad at teaching you anything.

On the other hand, if someone used a level skip, the gloves are off! You intentionally skipped the part that would allow you to learn, so either way you cannot have done it anyways. It's on you to make up for the levels lost experiencing and practicing the game now. Don't go all "I'm new and I don't know what to do", you clearly knew enough to spend money on explotiative mtx, might as well spend brain on non-exploitative practice now!

Don't but mtx and expect compassion from me, basically. In particular not something like level or story skips.

it's a team play for sure but I will say this not everyone is confident in they're skills so honestly I follow the tanks and just look around for gposes because not everyone wanna go fast even if people want to go fast everyone have to respect each other no matter what. some also have disability that can make big pulls harder for them I always keep that in mind. last thing to if a tank small pulls because of X reason forcing a bigger pulls can be considered a grief sadly just be mindful of all those thing that's all

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ToxieDrop

it doesnt matter that your LV 100 in everything.
it doesnt matter that you have the mentor role
if you go out of your way to force bigger pulls just cause your impatient you are annoying

if you want wall pulls then either just ask lie a decent person or be tank yourself

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on a completely unrelated and more positive note, finished EW two days ago! soo good and now i wait for the third peep of my group to catch up so we can all go into DT together!

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Wdym "not doing one wave but doing two or three but not five" my guy? You either pull one pack or you pull two because there isn't any more to pull before a wall

It seems like an inability to press Unleash + Rampart issue

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Carighan

Yeah but not the point. I still prioritize the social nature of an MMORPG over "but you ought to!". It's about playing together with other people after all. Hence if the group as a group decide we're doing single group pulls and I'm not in a hurry, sure I'll go along with it. It's a group effort after all, no need to be aggressive to people for openly talking about (game-)insecurities.

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But OP isn't talking about their insecurities, are they? They are talking about prioritizing their own ejoyement over other people's enjoyement (and time). Accusing people of annoying them even, rather than politely asking.