7.1 Double Down includes an oversight

Hello there,

Patch 7.1 introduced a new GNB change that aims to reduce punishment on Gunbreaker in situation where GNB is forced to drop a lot of melee GCDs.

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Double Down Cartridge cost has been reduced from 2 to 1.

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The intent is good, however this change includes a massive oversight in full uptime scenarios!
Considering the reopener window happens with 3 Cartridges similar to the 6.0~7.1 period, you will be forced to insert a new burst strike within the burst sequence in order to not override a cartridge

This sequence prevents the use of Sonic Break (900 potency) within the No mercy window as the 8 GCDs are completely occupied.
As a result, to avoid this issue, the Gunbreaker rotation is forced to setup a 2-Ammo Reopener, ditching any extra cartridges.

This is very counter intuitive after 3 years of getting used to build 3 ammos for the reburst. This change make the whole GNB rotation worse with the intention of making it easier in specific scenarios.

Possible Suggestions

• Change Double Down to consume up to 2 Cartridges but usable with 1 cartridges and adjust the potency based on the number of cartridges consumed.
• Revert the Double Down's cost to 2 Cartridges, add an extra way to generate cartridges later.
• Similar to MNK, allow GNB's Bloodfest to overflow the maximum cartridge.
• Nerf Sonic break to 15s duration and redistribute the 300 lost potency somewhere else.

Uh, why not just overwrite a cartridge then? You get an extra resource when needed, but keep the muscle memory for the burst as now at no loss of potency compared to before?

Your character doesn't keel over dead when you overstack a cartridge after all. They don't explode. :P

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Originally Posted by Carighan

Your character doesn't keel over dead when you overstack a cartridge after all. They don't explode. :P

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They actually do. :(

More seriously, dropping a cart also sucks because it's still potential damage lost. Like in the grand scheme of things this isn't a world shattering problem and rotations *can* be adjusted by going in without your burst damage resource capped, but it's awkward, unintuitive, and definitely feels kind of bad when a newly introduced solution for a potential issue winds up making *more* issues for a problem they *just* solved in 7.0 when they added the Lionheart combo.

What? The battle team made an oversight because of their unfamiliarity with their own system, all in the name of babyproofing another job? Unheard of!

Oh the biggest oversight is of course that it needs to be renamed to Single Down.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

Uh, why not just overwrite a cartridge then? You get an extra resource when needed, but keep the muscle memory for the burst as now at no loss of potency compared to before?

Your character doesn't keel over dead when you overstack a cartridge after all. They don't explode. :P

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"Ugh, this 8oz glass sometimes spills over the top."

"Okay, here's a 10oz glass so that no longer happens."

"Wtf why isn't my glass filled to the brim"

Firstly, you can burst strike > early weave No Mercy > hypervelocity for your 2 mins, and this will fit in all GCD's + sonic break.

the other option is to play a faster GCD, 8 GCD burst heavily implies you play at 2.5. in a 2.45 or faster rotation you get 9 GCD's in burst or in 2.45's case you get 9 GCD's in 2 mins and 8 GCD's in 1 mins.

a lot of people have been asking for this or Double Down's removal as EW GNB and 7.0-7.1 GNB was also very strict as a class, esp compared to other tanks

Why not just reopen with 2 cartridges?

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Originally Posted by typeaxiom

Why not just reopen with 2 cartridges?

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

As a result, to avoid this issue, the Gunbreaker rotation is forced to setup a 2-Ammo Reopener, ditching any extra cartridges.

This is very counter intuitive after 3 years of getting used to build 3 ammos for the reburst. This change make the whole GNB rotation worse with the intention of making it easier in specific scenarios.

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Hello,
I've adressed this question:
It feels counter intuitive
It's a way to just simplify GNB when the rigidity of the job was a big appeal to many players.

And as pointed out by Icecylee, they already solved the main issue. It's a change that rewards player who don't actively seek uptime and punish players who actively seek uptime.
The simplify aspect alone should be enough to be against this change.

I'm not a fan of the rework. I constantly run in to issues where I either over-cap, throwing damage away, or drift my burst, throwing damage away.

I hope they undo the double down change. I may swap tanks if this is the new GNB.

Yeah, really not a fan of the Double Down change, and I genuinely can't see a rationale as to why the change was made. It using two cartridges was a feature, not a pain point to be fixed.

Between the Lion Heart combo and now this change in 7.1, I unfortunately think the design team for GNB is now entirely out of touch with the actual gameplay of the job in anything but dungeon content. The rotation was very nearly perfect in endwalker, but is increasingly all over the place now with weird timing issues that just feels very untested.

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Originally Posted by PeridotOlivine

Between the Lion Heart combo and now this change in 7.1, I unfortunately think the design team for GNB is now entirely out of touch with the actual gameplay of the job in anything but dungeon content. The rotation was very nearly perfect in endwalker, but is increasingly all over the place now with weird timing issues that just feels very untested.

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I really seem to be the only one who genuinely enjoys "timing issues".

See, before, the rotation was "perfect". As in, each 2 minute cycle was exactly the same, with 0 divergence from the pattern.

So... erm... why am I, as a human, in front of the keyboard again then? Just make it so that my character goes through this cycle on their own as a single huge autocombo if that's all there is to it?

For characters to feel non-automated, they have to be imperfect. Either they're overflowing in a resource, they're starved for time in which to use their abilities and cycling CDs vie for priority and attention, they're unable to move without breaking their rotation (the original fantasy behind Black Mage before they gave them 156000 instant casts and movement abilities), I'm bound to random procs in my button sequence (Dancer), etc etc etc.

I'll be honest, if everyone here likes tanks the way they play now fine, but I find them dreadfully boring and dull since all they do is something that might as well be a single long macro. Not a tank-exclusive problem of course. /shrug

But importantly, I like how this change "ruins" things. Either you have excess resources, or your cycle becomes unstable. Actual player attention needed! Actual decisionmaking!

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Originally Posted by Yuoaman

Yeah, really not a fan of the Double Down change, and I genuinely can't see a rationale as to why the change was made. It using two cartridges was a feature, not a pain point to be fixed.

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It was a pain point, but it wasn't due to Double Down costing two cartridges alone but the addition of a third cartridge in general.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

See, before, the rotation was "perfect". As in, each 2 minute cycle was exactly the same, with 0 divergence from the pattern.

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Incorrect, if the boss had full uptime you had a "on rail" mapping just like all non-RNG job.
What changed is that when losing melee GCDs (due to downtime or mechanics), you had to think about cartridge management which isn't a thing for many DPS.

You had to decide how you spend you cartridges in order to always have 3 before a No Mercy window or be punished.
Now you don't have to think about that, regardless of the decision you make you'll never be punished.
Your burst is now ensured it will always be the same, the exact thing you're criticizing.

I feel that you're completely disconnected from the feedback here, 7.1 removes the punishment, planning, attention and decisionmaking due to the nature of the Cartridge economy.
Making sure I don't overfill a container isn't attention or decision making, that's just having the mental capacity of a toddler.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Making sure I don't overfill a container isn't attention or decision making, that's just having the mental capacity of a toddler.

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Is this an indirect jab at Dancer players? :P

Mind you, I should have worded that differently and said I like changes like this one. Because obviously in a vacuum it looks like an oversight, as OP says. It also doesn't really change much, as I then replied, you can mostly ignore it and do just about the same as before and then as you say, every so often it has an effect, 9 out of 10 times it doesn't.

But if we had loads such changes (not only resource-overcapping!) across all jobs, the static nature of combat would slowly break up, and that would be a massive boon too FFXIV's all-too-equal job design.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Hello,
I've adressed this question:
It feels counter intuitive
It's a way to just simplify GNB when the rigidity of the job was a big appeal to many players.

And as pointed out by Icecylee, they already solved the main issue. It's a change that rewards player who don't actively seek uptime and punish players who actively seek uptime.
The simplify aspect alone should be enough to be against this change.

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so, I play with people who have played with GNB for high end content for years and I've also dabbled with GNB for a while now ever since it came out in 5.0. the double down change is objectively good rather than as bad as a lot of this thread is making it out to be. this has been an issue ever since the 3rd cart and Double Down was added in Endwalker.

out of all of the 4 tanks GNB is actively punished the hardest when the main rotation is messed up, you lose uptime or you die coming into your 2 mins as your double down will most likely drift around outside of the major issues. This change is also a major godsend to the class in multi phase fights such as M4S or any EW ulti and the upcoming ultimate raid as it is less reliant on starting up the burst on 3 carts and allows resource gen to be less of an issue. as a whole. i would go as far to say that this class wasn't even healthy to play in 7.0.

the main reason why hypervelocity lost potency in the changes also is to make up for the fact that now you do your 2 mins with 2 carts, you will need to do an extra Burst Strike > Hypervelocity in your filler between the 1:30 unbuffed gnashing combo and before the 2 mins in your rotation so you don't have 3 carts going into 2 mins.

"I hate this change as it makes it easier therefore bad" is kind of a bad mentality overall.

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Originally Posted by Metricasc

so, I play with people who have played with GNB for high end content for years and I've also dabbled with GNB for a while now ever since it came out in 5.0. the double down change is objectively good rather than as bad as a lot of this thread is making it out to be. this has been an issue ever since the 3rd cart and Double Down was added in Endwalker.

out of all of the 4 tanks GNB is actively punished the hardest when the main rotation is messed up, you lose uptime or you die coming into your 2 mins as your double down will most likely drift around outside of the major issues. This change is also a major godsend to the class in multi phase fights such as M4S or any EW ulti and the upcoming ultimate raid as it is less reliant on starting up the burst on 3 carts and allows resource gen to be less of an issue. as a whole. i would go as far to say that this class wasn't even healthy to play in 7.0.

the main reason why hypervelocity lost potency in the changes also is to make up for the fact that now you do your 2 mins with 2 carts, you will need to do an extra Burst Strike > Hypervelocity in your filler between the 1:30 unbuffed gnashing combo and before the 2 mins in your rotation so you don't have 3 carts going into 2 mins.

"I hate this change as it makes it easier therefore bad" is kind of a bad mentality overall.

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Your anecdotal evidence isn't any better than the anecdotal evidence people are providing here. I dislike the change, as do GNB mains in my social circles. It's all just opinions. Also, something being easier isn't "objectively good".

I personally enjoyed the rotation being rigid because the skill came from doing said rotation during mechanics. It's not a bad mentality to want things to be challenging. Some of us don't want every job to be easy.

I'm not a fan of the change in it's current form either, the change to Double Down should've come packaged with reducing the maximum catridges back to 2.

Granted I haven't mained Gunbreaker since Asphodelos because I hate the force 2-cart burst that patch 6.2 and the 2.50 GCD playstyle introduced, so take it with a grain of salt.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

I'm not a fan of the change in it's current form either, the change to Double Down should've come packaged with reducing the maximum catridges back to 2.

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That's a thing I had not considered, but thinking about it, I think I'd like that, yeah. Feels more fast-paced if you can't pre-stack as much.

If they changed it so Double Down uses all your current cartridges, bringing it back in line with the rotation you're used to, that would eliminate this feeling some players have of "wasting" a cartridge. Though I think some people will find a new reason to complain.

uhhh i feel like you're gonna lose more damage doing a 1 2 3 combo in no mercy to NOT overcap than just overcapping 1 and using DD and continuing with opener..... feel like basic math and 2 seconds of testing should bear that out lol

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Incorrect, if the boss had full uptime you had a "on rail" mapping just like all non-RNG job.
What changed is that when losing melee GCDs (due to downtime or mechanics), you had to think about cartridge management which isn't a thing for many DPS.

You had to decide how you spend you cartridges in order to always have 3 before a No Mercy window or be punished.
Now you don't have to think about that, regardless of the decision you make you'll never be punished.
Your burst is now ensured it will always be the same, the exact thing you're criticizing.

I feel that you're completely disconnected from the feedback here, 7.1 removes the punishment, planning, attention and decisionmaking due to the nature of the Cartridge economy.
Making sure I don't overfill a container isn't attention or decision making, that's just having the mental capacity of a toddler.

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uhhhh dancer and several other jobs would like a word....

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Originally Posted by Metricasc

so, I play with people who have played with GNB for high end content for years and I've also dabbled with GNB for a while now ever since it came out in 5.0. the double down change is objectively good rather than as bad as a lot of this thread is making it out to be. this has been an issue ever since the 3rd cart and Double Down was added in Endwalker.

out of all of the 4 tanks GNB is actively punished the hardest when the main rotation is messed up, you lose uptime or you die coming into your 2 mins as your double down will most likely drift around outside of the major issues. This change is also a major godsend to the class in multi phase fights such as M4S or any EW ulti and the upcoming ultimate raid as it is less reliant on starting up the burst on 3 carts and allows resource gen to be less of an issue. as a whole. i would go as far to say that this class wasn't even healthy to play in 7.0.

the main reason why hypervelocity lost potency in the changes also is to make up for the fact that now you do your 2 mins with 2 carts, you will need to do an extra Burst Strike > Hypervelocity in your filler between the 1:30 unbuffed gnashing combo and before the 2 mins in your rotation so you don't have 3 carts going into 2 mins.

"I hate this change as it makes it easier therefore bad" is kind of a bad mentality overall.

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no kidding, so many people that don't play at a high level trying to direct how jobs play is infuriating and how we end up with devs getting BAD feedback and garbo changes happening.

I have been using GNB after the change at first when i was using it i thought it would mess up the rotation quite a bit. After playing it through Dungeon and Raids, I can see why the change was positive. Previously it was quite punishing to have downtime or needing to use your range attack, a single missed GCD could cause drifting. The reduction of the cartridge from 2 to 1 allows a leeway that was missing in the where you can make range attacks and not feel like you will miss the 1 min or 2 min bursts with some forgiveness in in the 30 and 1:30 moments. I was going in with my 2 min with two cartridges was weird at first but after doing a 6 and 8 min rotation and do testing it with range attacks to simulate downtime, it feels better.

Now, you can still encounter a 2 min with one cartridge, but when I attempted to cause it to happen on purpose (used burst strike too much or too many range attacks were used). i can see the frustration but it is a relatively positive change in theory, testing, and in practice.

the change is fine, doesn't make a big difference, besides making the rotation a bit less strict.

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Originally Posted by SWATomega

I have been using GNB after the change at first when i was using it i thought it would mess up the rotation quite a bit. After playing it through Dungeon and Raids, I can see why the change was positive. Previously it was quite punishing to have downtime or needing to use your range attack, a single missed GCD could cause drifting. The reduction of the cartridge from 2 to 1 allows a leeway that was missing in the where you can make range attacks and not feel like you will miss the 1 min or 2 min bursts with some forgiveness in in the 30 and 1:30 moments. I was going in with my 2 min with two cartridges was weird at first but after doing a 6 and 8 min rotation and do testing it with range attacks to simulate downtime, it feels better.

Now, you can still encounter a 2 min with one cartridge, but when I attempted to cause it to happen on purpose (used burst strike too much or too many range attacks were used). i can see the frustration but it is a relatively positive change in theory, testing, and in practice.

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The problem is: If downtime is causing drift due to how strict the rotation is, the solution is to give GNB something to do during downtime. GNB should have something like Forbidden Mediation to reload cartridges the way MNK fills Chakra (we could even reuse the old Quick Reload animation from HW MCH). Putting it on the GCD will prevent it from being used on cooldown like Improvisation was in ShB. Like, it's lore compliant that the Gunblade can be reloaded with pre-loaded cartridges because Thancred does it. Why can't we do it, too?

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Originally Posted by inhaledcorn

The problem is: If downtime is causing drift due to how strict the rotation is, the solution is to give GNB something to do during downtime. GNB should have something like Forbidden Mediation to reload cartridges the way MNK fills Chakra (we could even reuse the old Quick Reload animation from HW MCH). Putting it on the GCD will prevent it from being used on cooldown like Improvisation was in ShB. Like, it's lore compliant that the Gunblade can be reloaded with pre-loaded cartridges because Thancred does it. Why can't we do it, too?

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Downtime will always be a thing, but some classes handle it better, Drifting is also a case-by-case basis (forget to use it, not enough resources, etc.). GNB was quite a strict class in rotation in EW with the addition of Double Down, where 100% melee Uptime was basically needed to maintain the 1 and 2 min bursts. If you didn't spend your cartridges or spent too many in EW and 7.0 you would drift double down. Now they have reduced the count for activation to one cartridge, from 3 to 2 for the 1 and 2 min bursts (relative to what opener is used). So now we have a case where 3 GCDs are freed up to be used (to generate a 3rd cartridge) that provides more flexibility to reduce the chance to drift the GCD of double down.

Plus the tanks don't have a down time ability, those are regulated to DPS classes in most cases. Plus there is a difference between lore accuracy and gameplay.

It's also just not an issue to have some classes be better at handling drift and others worse so long as the latter does something else better in return. Job identity is important, otherwise you might as well just have "Tank" as a job with 4 different weapons that all work the same just for visual purposes.

GNB went from being my favourite tank in DT to being my super duper big favouritist tank in DT after the change. It honestly gives that third cartridge slot a reason to be there, now.

It feels weird but fine under the circumstances of slow 2.5-2.45 GCD of you remember to make certain you are empty or 2-1 charges going into the 2 mins while 1 min remains the same full cartridge prep.

It's the fast 2.4 GCD where it gets clunky, especially if you have any lag or minor downtime during the burst. Needing move sonic break or the end of the lionheart combo to your last second of no mercy can be a gamble where those hits miss no mercy because of mechanics or lag.