I WANT MY NASTROND CHARGES BACK RIGHT NOW

This is absurd, it is utterly unbelieveable.

It's not even fathomable that this change happened. Awful, genuinely the worst.

Give us back our Nastrond Charges, if people can't use them all in burst properly, that's a skill issue - we shouldn't be getting punished because some people can't press buttons.

This applies to the entire 7.0 DRG dework.

Agreed this is the worst change since removing yet another jump from dragoon

DRG needs 3 things.

1. Fewer oGCDs. While the Nastrond charge change fixes this issue in part, there are much better options to target. Like Mirage Dive. Or Life Surge.
2. Fewer clunky oGCDs. This is mostly related to combo'd oGCDs. An oGCD that turns into a second oGCD. Doubly so when you cannot fire them back to back. This was, obviously, not fixed. And most of the egregious examples of this came about in DT specifically. The other example being E.G. Jump->Mirage Dive.
3. Jump man need more jump.

I'm indifferent on the Nastrond change since it technically makes room for other changes elsewhere. But there's 2 vastly worse oGCDs to also target that are suspiciously ignored. A Nastrond change could happen later, but you don't make it the first choice and then reduce a core piece of kit that has existed since Stormblood because someone put too many new and pointless things onto the class.

I would be fine bringing Nastrond back to 3 charges if it meant removing life surge and mirage dive. Seriously, screw those abilities. And it would still accomplish a 1.5+ drop in APM as well while reducing burst clutter by the same amount. Does nothing about anything else, but same goal with abilities people probably actually don't care about.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

DRG needs 3 things.

1. Fewer oGCDs. While the Nastrond charge change fixes this issue in part, there are much better options to target. Like Mirage Dive. Or Life Surge.

I would be fine bringing Nastrond back to 3 charges if it meant removing life surge and mirage dive. Seriously, screw those abilities.

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No, these are terrible solutions. If you remove all that, the job is skeletal. The only thing they should've done to reduce weaving is reworking Life Surge into a weaponskill.

No more removals. The kit has to be cohesive and interactive with itself, which is also why Mirage Dive should've given a scale instead of having almost double potency.

But the main point is that one of DRG's core features is its focus in oGCDs. Removing them to give nothing back, as is the current case, only makes it worse than it already was in 7.0.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

DRG needs 3 things.

1. Fewer oGCDs. While the Nastrond charge change fixes this issue in part, there are much better options to target. Like Mirage Dive. Or Life Surge.
2. Fewer clunky oGCDs. This is mostly related to combo'd oGCDs. An oGCD that turns into a second oGCD. Doubly so when you cannot fire them back to back. This was, obviously, not fixed. And most of the egregious examples of this came about in DT specifically. The other example being E.G. Jump->Mirage Dive.
3. Jump man need more jump.

I'm indifferent on the Nastrond change since it technically makes room for other changes elsewhere. But there's 2 vastly worse oGCDs to also target that are suspiciously ignored. A Nastrond change could happen later, but you don't make it the first choice and then reduce a core piece of kit that has existed since Stormblood because someone put too many new and pointless things onto the class.

I would be fine bringing Nastrond back to 3 charges if it meant removing life surge and mirage dive. Seriously, screw those abilities. And it would still accomplish a 1.5+ drop in APM as well while reducing burst clutter by the same amount. Does nothing about anything else, but same goal with abilities people probably actually don't care about.

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DRG needs 1 thing and it's less feedback from people like you who dislike its core job identity, which is an abundance of oGCD. Plenty of other melee jobs you can go and play.

Also can we get doom spike at Level 12 please.
No AOE until 40 is just Thal's Balls.

Taranok is right.
The class has to many oGcd. And it was stated years ago, that one goal of the drg rework was, to work an the overload of the skills, he has to use in the burst Mode (around 17 skills).
Reducing Nastrond IS on of the solution. Esspecialy, when the strg is now double (mean, whe use 2 at ones).

Its even true, that it feels like, something is missing now. Because, its became now a bit relaxing. Maybe, whe could habe 2 charges of Nastrond. Because all other ogcd are 2 phase attacks to (except, if whe count Geirskogul as the phase 1 attack).
In addition is it now needed to positionate you correctly, to hit the most people with the line attack.

And, in Theorie have whe now 3 new skill to use.
The spear throwing skill is now potency 350, after a backflip. What is stronger as Nastrond originaly was.
In theorie can whe now jump back, throwing the spear and dass than to the enemie again, in the burst Mode.
I doubt, that this is relatable. But, would be a option now and would include jumps to now.

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Originally Posted by Keichi

In theorie can whe now jump back, throwing the spear and dass than to the enemie again, in the burst Mode.

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This will only be a thing in level 70 content or earlier.

Piercing Talon will be a loss regardless at higher levels and especially after acquiring Wyrmwind Thrust. It's just gone from terrible to alright but requiring the use of Elusive Jump to use it is bad.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

Fewer clunky oGCDs. This is mostly related to combo'd oGCDs. An oGCD that turns into a second oGCD. Doubly so when you cannot fire them back to back. This was, obviously, not fixed. And most of the egregious examples of this came about in DT specifically. The other example being E.G. Jump->Mirage Dive.

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I mean, it's a neat concept for a job identity, but only if the job were actually built around it. DRG has by far the most of them, but it doesn't do anything mechanically, it's just busywork for... well... busywork's case.

Which is why the whole design was always so bad, there's just no identity in all the fumbling about with a lance DRGs do. They lack something that makes DRG be, well, a DRG. But then FFXIV as a whole struggles hard with any identity for any of their jobs, seeing how that got shifted into fight design and automatically requires jobs to be heavily homogenized and streamlined.

I would like to have Nastrond back please.

I don't have much in the way to offer on what to remove though.

Mirage Dive doesn't have a place anymore since the scales were removed.

I can see why Life Surge would be a candidate and I would argue you could built it into Drakesbane, however Life Surge does let you have a limited degree of choice in the kit. Some players enjoy having the choice of when to you use the big, fat, life-stealing crit.

In conclusion, i don't know. All I know is that reducing Nastronds isn't it. Or at least do it nearer to 8.0 so I can cope with "it's prep for new expansion skills".

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Originally Posted by Schan

I would like to have Nastrond back please.

I don't have much in the way to offer on what to remove though.

Mirage Dive doesn't have a place anymore since the scales were removed.

I can see why Life Surge would be a candidate and I would argue you could built it into Drakesbane, however Life Surge does let you have a limited degree of choice in the kit. Some players enjoy having the choice of when to you use the big, fat, life-stealing crit.

In conclusion, i don't know. All I know is that reducing Nastronds isn't it. Or at least do it nearer to 8.0 so I can cope with "it's prep for new expansion skills".

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So mirage dive didn't have a place in dragoon until endwalker with the addition of scales?

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

So mirage dive didn't have a place in dragoon until endwalker with the addition of scales?

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Wait, so you don't even know how Mirage Dive worked pre-DT, and yet you're claiming in the other thread that you quit because you didn't like what DRG had become? Or are you just being annoying about the particular term that he used, planning to jump in with a "erm, akshually, it was the eye part of the gauge that got removed."

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Originally Posted by HeavenlyArmed

Wait, so you don't even know how Mirage Dive worked pre-DT, and yet you're claiming in the other thread that you quit because you didn't like what DRG had become? Or are you just being annoying about the particular term that he used, planning to jump in with a "erm, akshually, it was the eye part of the gauge that got removed."

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Ignore Hikari, they're either a troll or genuinely argue for no reason about things they do not understand.

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Originally Posted by Nikoto

DRG needs 1 thing and it's less feedback from people like you who dislike its core job identity, which is an abundance of oGCD. Plenty of other melee jobs you can go and play.

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Unfortunately those are the people SE is listening to when changing the jobs. Why they choose to cater to people who hate the job over those who loved it the way it was, I will never understand.

Honestly, Square needs to undo everything they did to DRG since 7.0 (with exception of 3 Nastrond charges, those are fine). Job just isn't as fun as it was without Dragon Gauge, Nastronds, and yes, movement management during burst phases (like in P10S and P12S, for example) while figuring out correct order to use all your jumps.

These changes are so out of touch I saw someone post it on social media and thought they were a joke at first. It feels like they asked an AI how to make the adjustments. Genuinely, what were they thinking?

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Originally Posted by HeavenlyArmed

Wait, so you don't even know how Mirage Dive worked pre-DT, and yet you're claiming in the other thread that you quit because you didn't like what DRG had become? Or are you just being annoying about the particular term that he used, planning to jump in with a "erm, akshually, it was the eye part of the gauge that got removed."

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I forgot because they used the wrong term lol, been a while since I played.

Either way, mirage dive is a cooldown damage button, what's wrong with that? Does shinten not have a purpose on sam? Does bhavacakra not have a purpose on nin? Now that I remember what it was actually like, I can't believe people defended the eye system. It was so annoyingly bad to play dragoon in all content because of how LotD worked with eyes.

I'd love for this minority to make a game for themselves with all these contrived annoying battle mechanics. Instead you just act miserable while the majority get what they want in this game. You know you can always collaborate together with all the other unhappy players and make your own failed venture right? Make a discord group and get organized. I'm sure there are like 100 of you and you could make something happen maybe. I don't believe it would be successful, but surely it's better than playing a game you're so unhappy with.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

It was so annoyingly bad to play dragoon in all content because of how LotD worked with eyes.

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How so? Please elaborate and explain what was wrong with it.

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Originally Posted by VerySadDRG

How so? Please elaborate and explain what was wrong with it.

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Burst window at start of fight felt extremely weak compared to other jobs, and you didn't get to go into LotD every single trash pull. The timing was awkward and unsatisfying because of the delay. It was very unintuitive to line up your burst window as a result. There was a "correct" way of lining everything up, but it was not natural and felt like poor design. People get used to things like that and grow attached to it because they spent time figuring out how to make it work, but the reality is it should just work naturally. It works naturally now and the start of fight burst is full power.

You're free to enjoy how it used to be, but it's important to recognize that you're a minority and either need to accept how it is now, or move on and make your own game/play another game. Or you can just cope with being miserable. This is capitalism though. The majority rule.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

Burst window at start of fight felt extremely weak compared to other jobs, and you didn't get to go into LotD every single trash pull.

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LoTD in opener could've been solved with full Dragon Gauge at start of the inst, it wasn't the problem of that mechanic per se, also it allowed to get additional windows of LoTD being technically 30 sec CD instead of strict 1 min CD, so much for "bad eyes". And it also goes for trash pulls - you can't do it at start, but you're free to do whatever you want afterwards. What "felt" like poor design to you (tho you made it clear that you had no clue how it worked) is, in fact, the opposite. And for me and many others who actually played DRG it was the identity - ability to manipulate your burst window however you want (it also could've help to go into LoTD early in fights like M1S where stun can just stop you while you're in the burst, or worse just about to go into it, but now forced to drift it).

Pre-7.0 DRG allowed you to adjust to any downtime boss throws at you or go into LoTD before boss dies without waiting for 1 minute, and after 7.0 that isn't the case - THAT is what bad job design to me.

And yet again, it isn't capitalism, for none would unironically pay for current state of BLM, MCH or DRG.

And please, stop projecting your problems onto others, no one is coping but you, for there is no such majority since the only one who defends those changes here is you, and you didn't even level DRG to 100, lmao.

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Originally Posted by VerySadDRG

LoTD in opener could've been solved with full Dragon Gauge at start of the inst, it wasn't the problem of that mechanic per se, also it allowed to get additional windows of LoTD being technically 30 sec CD instead of strict 1 min CD, so much for "bad eyes". And it also goes for trash pulls - you can't do it at start, but you're free to do whatever you want afterwards. What "felt" like poor design to you (tho you made it clear that you had no clue how it worked) is, in fact, the opposite. And for me and many others who actually played DRG it was the identity - ability to manipulate your burst window however you want (it also could've help to go into LoTD early in fights like M1S where stun can just stop you while you're in the burst, or worse just about to go into it, but now forced to drift it).

Pre-7.0 DRG allowed you to adjust to any downtime boss throws at you or go into LoTD before boss dies without waiting for 1 minute, and after 7.0 that isn't the case - THAT is what bad job design to me.

And yet again, it isn't capitalism, for none would unironically pay for current state of BLM, MCH or DRG.

And please, stop projecting your problems onto others, no one is coping but you, for there is no such majority since the only one who defends those changes here is you, and you didn't even level DRG to 100, lmao.

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Alexa, play cry me a river by justin timberlake

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

Alexa, play cry me a river by justin timberlake

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Is it all you can say about topic at hand? womp womp

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Originally Posted by VerySadDRG

Is it all you can say about topic at hand? womp womp

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i mean what else do you want me to say to you? i don't even feel bad for you and i can't relate to you. the dragoon changes are good.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

i mean what else do you want me to say to you? i don't even feel bad for you and i can't relate to you. the dragoon changes are good.

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Couldn't care less about sympathy from troll who has no clue what he's talking about.
I explained to you why it was good design and how it is worse without Dragon Gauge, yet you have nothing to say. Honestly, it is the best reaction you could've made.

Sooo good that you're still at lvl 92? Doesn't look like it is the case, lmao.

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Originally Posted by VerySadDRG

Couldn't care less about sympathy from troll who has no clue what he's talking about.
I explained to you why it was good design and how it is worse without Dragon Gauge, yet you have nothing to say. Honestly, it is the best reaction you could've made.

Sooo good that you're still at lvl 92? Doesn't look like it is the case, lmao.

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The patch came out like 2 days ago and I've been busy with real life? Not a no-life ffxiv tryhard like you, I got better things to do than sit around playing games all day crying on the forums about square pandering to people who don't treat the game like their career. I cancelled my sub early in dawntrail after I realized that dragoon was too busy for me to care about getting good at on top of the msq putting me to sleep. The dragoon changes in 7.1 reignited my interest in the game enough to reactivate my sub. I am casual though so I'm not playing every day. Like I said, I have better things to do than play video games like they're my job.

I'll get around to it when I want to. It's not like they're going to undo the changes.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

The patch came out like 2 days ago and I've been busy with real life?

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Yet you have time to argue on forums? C'mon now, you're supposed to enjoy it, not waste your time here. Or is it just an excuse and you have nothing better to do than try to troll some people who are truly concerned about state of their job? Hmmm, I wonder.

And leveling from 92 to 93 doesn't even take that long, so yeah, it really doesn't look like you're enjoying it.

time for the forum mods to come back and clean up this mess and suspend the accounts involved.

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Originally Posted by VerySadDRG

Yet you have time to argue on forums? C'mon now, you're supposed to enjoy it, not waste your time here. Or is it just an excuse and you have nothing better to do than try to troll some people who are truly concerned about state of their job? Hmmm, I wonder.

And leveling from 92 to 93 doesn't even take that long, so yeah, it really doesn't look like you're enjoying it.

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What is the argument? You have your opinion which is based on your preference, I have mine. There's no argument rofl. Just posting to praise the devs for the changes so this place doesn't become an echo chamber of negativity. Don't worry about what I'm doing or when I'm going to get around to playing the game. Focus on your own misery and what to do with it.

"How dare you have fun with your job!? We're pruning it!"

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

i mean what else do you want me to say to you? i don't even feel bad for you and i can't relate to you. the dragoon changes are good.

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You could start by not attacking people's life / skill just because they disagree with you.

I am happy to keep this going even if in the end there's no common ground and we agree to disagree.

My stance stands that they could've removed other oGCDs instead of Nastrond.

What you say about the pre 7.0 drg is only a taste thing.
Its the correct way of square, to let us use dragon soul from the start now.
Because, every (or nearly all) classes was able to start with a full burst at the start of the battle. Only the drg was not able to use its burst at the start. He was even off-time to anyone else. Or, had to hold back and used a non-logical rotation (logical way, the game teached you was "high jump -> mirage dive -> Geirskogul, after 2 times did you started the dragon soul, but, all buffs runned out at that time, you needed to start with Geirs, than the jump and had to wait around a minute or 2, to go into burst). The dragon eye was even a pain, with selecting a target as a Partner mid-fight.

To change it to the Instant start was the correct way.
The only things i would change is, to use a other Button to start the burst mode. I want allways to use geirs, but not want to start the burst each time.
Maybe, they should changed the dragon eye skill to the kind of skill, that gives you the needed ressources at ones or start the Mode without the ressources.

Its true, that they could do it in other ways. But in overall is it ok, with what they are doing (maybe set Nastrond to a 2 charger). Let them test this for now. Whe saw with Star Cross, that they listen sometimes to the people.

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Originally Posted by Keichi

Its the correct way of square, to let us use dragon soul from the start now.
Because, every (or nearly all) classes was able to start with a full burst at the start of the battle. Only the drg was not able to use its burst at the start.

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WHM and BRD didn't have all their kit in the opener and neither did gauge jobs like RPR, RDM or now VPR, whose normal 2-minute bursts diverge from their openers.

There's nothing wrong with jobs building up their power over time. Why should all of them burst the same way all the time?

DRG simply built up its damage and nothing was lost in any case: the amount of LotD windows was exactly the same as it is now, with the last LotD used depending on the KT of the encounter.

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Originally Posted by Keichi

What you say about the pre 7.0 drg is only a taste thing.
Its the correct way of square, to let us use dragon soul from the start now.
Because, every (or nearly all) classes was able to start with a full burst at the start of the battle. Only the drg was not able to use its burst at the start. He was even off-time to anyone else. Or, had to hold back and used a non-logical rotation (logical way, the game teached you was "high jump -> mirage dive -> Geirskogul, after 2 times did you started the dragon soul, but, all buffs runned out at that time, you needed to start with Geirs, than the jump and had to wait around a minute or 2, to go into burst). The dragon eye was even a pain, with selecting a target as a Partner mid-fight.

To change it to the Instant start was the correct way.
The only things i would change is, to use a other Button to start the burst mode. I want allways to use geirs, but not want to start the burst each time.
Maybe, they should changed the dragon eye skill to the kind of skill, that gives you the needed ressources at ones or start the Mode without the ressources.

Its true, that they could do it in other ways. But in overall is it ok, with what they are doing (maybe set Nastrond to a 2 charger). Let them test this for now. Whe saw with Star Cross, that they listen sometimes to the people.

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No thank you.

While Dragoon getting full burst at the start of the fight is a good change, losing Nastrond charges will *never* be good - and you are trolling or hate fun if you think it is.

Im not trolling.
Im simply doesnt care that much.

Whe have keeped the dmg of the 3 shots (one shoot merged with the first one and the second should have switched to the Star skills). And they stated allready, that they wanted the burst to be less busy. This change is exactly, what that would mean.

I only had the chance to do 1 dungeon this week, and have not much experience with the new drg yet. But from the first look does it looks to be ok.
Its true, that it feels, that whe are missing something now (reason, why i stated, that whe maybe could have 2 charges). But at the same time does it feeled nice, to have a bit less to do in the burst Mode. I can now focus more on the normal rotation and dont forgot to shoot the last or the last 2 shoots anymore (happens sometime).

But, the downside is, that you have now to positionate your chara more correctly, as before, because you only has 1 shoot for the line attack. And, it is possible, that i change my mind later one (the busy work was one reason, why the class feeled fast). But for now am im willing to test the current Version.

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Originally Posted by Keichi

Im simply doesnt care that much.

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Then go away - if you don't care about the job, please do NOT provide your poor feedback.

I doesnt care much about, if whe now shooting that 1 skill 1,2 or 3 times.
This one skill doesnt represent the whole class (even when i like it).
3 shoots was the right number in Shb/EW times, because whe doesnt had anything to shoot, after whe used Star diver.
Now, have whe up to 5-9 skills in around the same time frame (wyvern jump+Nidhoog, High jump+Mirage dive, Star dive+Star cross, 1-3 Nastrond). Removing 2 Nastrond simply doesnt look that important. Whe keep that skill. Its only less of them. Its fit the system, that each skill is 2 attacks (Geirskogul-> Nastrond = 2 attacks).

Like i stated allready, does it feels differently. But its not bad. The time will show, if a second charge would feel better. But 3 shoots arend needed anymore.

Its simply a change, that happens and where im willing to test it (and my opinion has the same right to be mentioned, as yours). As long as whe dont loose the skill completly, will i probably not crying about it.

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Originally Posted by Keichi

But, the downside is, that you have now to positionate your chara more correctly, as before, because you only has 1 shoot for the line attack.

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That's another criticism I have which also matches the 2 minute meta criticism that I have. Because Nastrond is condensed into one hit you also get severely punished for messing it up. Either by missing targets or by missing buff windows.

The same way that deaths cuck you hard because now you have your burst outside buff windows.

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Originally Posted by Schan

That's another criticism I have which also matches the 2 minute meta criticism that I have. Because Nastrond is condensed into one hit you also get severely punished for messing it up. Either by missing targets or by missing buff windows.

The same way that deaths cuck you hard because now you have your burst outside buff windows.

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Not just this, but it's also a change that pushes even further into the more unhealthy aspects of the two minute meta design. This is a single skill, that is not a guaranteed crit or direct hit, with very high potency. So as opposed to the previous design, where the damage was spread out amongst multiple hits that are more likely to average out over time, we're more subject to damage variance that is entirely out of our control as players which is not healthy for the overall balance of the game.